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Old 25th March 2020, 02:08 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Not really, considering that ICE is an instrument of the overall government not just one party. And AOC is a crap excuse for a gadfly, just like Lindsay Graham, if one sees crap on both sides of the aisle instead of being stuck in a partisan bubble.

So your complaint isn't that AOC is a "gadfly", but rather that she isn't very good at it?
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Old 25th March 2020, 02:11 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
<snip>

I do not accept a priori that it's wrong to move people into areas currently on C19 lockdown. We take for granted that even under the current conditions, there are millions of people in New York who are in safe places right now.

<snip>

You don't see any flaws in the idea of moving new people into an area where it has been deemed dangerous for the ones already there to simply move around unnecessarily?

That's weird.
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Old 25th March 2020, 02:13 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
You don't see any flaws in the idea of moving new people into an area where it has been deemed dangerous for the ones already there to simply move around unnecessarily?
I see risks. I also see that the risks can be mitigated, and have been mitigated.

In order for me to see an actual flaw, someone would have to show me the actual flaw. So far, everybody's just saying there must be a flaw, and demanding I believe them without question.

Show me the flaw.
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Old 25th March 2020, 02:16 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
So your complaint isn't that AOC is a "gadfly", but rather that she isn't very good at it?
This's America, dang it, we expect, no, we demand the absolute best in our gadfly's, nothing less will do! We can't have there be, a gadfly gap!
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Old 25th March 2020, 02:21 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I see risks. I also see that the risks can be mitigated, and have been mitigated.

In order for me to see an actual flaw, someone would have to show me the actual flaw. So far, everybody's just saying there must be a flaw, and demanding I believe them without question.

Show me the flaw.
^This^
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Old 25th March 2020, 02:33 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
We take for granted that even under the current conditions, there are millions of people in New York who are in safe places right now.

Neither AOC nor CP have given me any reason to believe that the people ICE are moving to the New York area aren't going to such a place.
Given the last three years of ICE activities, I would say it's you who needs to support your position that ICE can be presumed by default, absent hard evidence, to be taking the minors to such a place.

ICE has a specific and recent established legal history demonstrating a callous disregard for the health and safety of minors in its custody - infamously arguing that court orders requiring detained minors be held in "safe and sanitary conditions" did not require it to provide detained children with soap, showers, or mattresses, for one instance.
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Old 25th March 2020, 03:08 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Given the last three years of ICE activities, I would say it's you who needs to support your position that ICE can be presumed by default, absent hard evidence, to be taking the minors to such a place.

ICE has a specific and recent established legal history demonstrating a callous disregard for the health and safety of minors in its custody - infamously arguing that court orders requiring detained minors be held in "safe and sanitary conditions" did not require it to provide detained children with soap, showers, or mattresses, for one instance.
^This^
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Old 25th March 2020, 03:11 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Given the last three years of ICE activities, I would say it's you who needs to support your position that ICE can be presumed by default, absent hard evidence, to be taking the minors to such a place.
Given the last three years of reporting on the Trump administration across the board, including ICE activities, I'm inclined to take any claim about ICE malfeasance with a large grain of salt. In this very thread we had an example of CP implying that an Obama-era stuff-up where kids got sold as labor occurred on Trump's watch and was part of the problem with Trump's ICE. So no, I'm not going to assume this is a bad thing just because people have been talking out their ass about how bad ICE is for the past three years.

Ad homs and appeals to "body of work" aside, AOC could simply just tell us where the kids are going, and present evidence that it's not currently a suitable place for kids to go.

There's a lot of stuff missing from this claim, that I would expect to see if it were a serious claim:

How many such facilities are there?

How many of them aren't already at capacity?

How many of them aren't limited by staffing shortages due to C19?

How many of them are actually safer, C19-wise, at the moment?

Does AOC even know any of the answers to these questions? Has she even thought to ask them? Or does this partisan slapfight selfie video simply try to apply the formula, ICE + C19 = ORANGE MAN BAD ?
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Old 25th March 2020, 05:10 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
<snip>

How many of them are actually safer, C19-wise, at the moment?

<snip>

Considering that the White House coronavirus response coordinator is asking everyone who has left New York recently to self-isolate for fourteen days, I find it odd that you would think it safer to bring kids there than just about anywhere else in the country.

You know, like somewhere that doesn't have the highest infection rate in country.

I wonder if the ICE agents who brought them there are staying put, or going back to wherever home is and quarantining themselves for two weeks? That would be complying with the White House request.
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Last edited by quadraginta; 25th March 2020 at 05:12 PM.
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Old 25th March 2020, 05:40 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I see risks. I also see that the risks can be mitigated, and have been mitigated.

In order for me to see an actual flaw, someone would have to show me the actual flaw. So far, everybody's just saying there must be a flaw, and demanding I believe them without question.

Show me the flaw.
^This^

Yep. I have to agree. You hit the nail on the head. That sort of post is a perfect example of the flaw.

One of them, anyhow.
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Old 25th March 2020, 06:12 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
If you think that's unlikely you should look into the rather checkered history of the privatized detention industry in this country.
I don't think kickbacks in government contracts are unlikely. I mentioned it because I find it as a much more plausible reason than a criminal gang of child peddlers.
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Old 25th March 2020, 07:28 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Ad homs and appeals to "body of work" aside, AOC could simply just tell us where the kids are going, and present evidence that it's not currently a suitable place for kids to go.
On the contrary. ICE are the ones transporting the kids. THEY can simply just tell us where the kids are going, and present evidence that it IS a suitable place to go.

"CP" and the people "in this very thread" did not invent ICE's federal court history when it comes to their on-record cavalier attitude towards the health and safety of minors in their custody.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There's a lot of stuff missing from this claim, that I would expect to see if it were a serious claim:

How many such facilities are there?

How many of them aren't already at capacity?

How many of them aren't limited by staffing shortages due to C19?

How many of them are actually safer, C19-wise, at the moment?

Does AOC even know any of the answers to these questions? Has she even thought to ask them?
Did you actually watch the video? At all?
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Last edited by Checkmite; 25th March 2020 at 07:30 PM.
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Old 26th March 2020, 02:30 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
"CP" and the people "in this very thread" did not invent ICE's federal court history when it comes to their on-record cavalier attitude towards the health and safety of minors in their custody.
You're being very generous. The attitude that jamming children into cages like animals is OK, goes way beyond cavalier. Sadly, there are a few members of this forum who don't have any problem with the idea of child concentration camps for brown people.
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Old 26th March 2020, 04:34 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
So your complaint isn't that AOC is a "gadfly", but rather that she isn't very good at it?
opportunist is another word usable in her case.
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Old 26th March 2020, 04:37 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
His post was a hair more clever than usual. He targeted Moscow Mitch and Lenningrad Lindsay as well as Madame Speaker Pelosi.
The pet name things just reinforces the cartoony nature of the daily outraging. Pelosi is a joke as much as the other two, and AOC is a grandstand opportunist.
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Old 26th March 2020, 04:38 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
As a side note: Bigfoot skeptics should remember this too.
Bigfoot skeptics outrage now? Weird....
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Old 26th March 2020, 04:43 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
You don't see any flaws in the idea of moving new people into an area where it has been deemed dangerous for the ones already there to simply move around unnecessarily?

That's weird.
as weird as being illegals when theres a LEGAL path to becoming a citizen of this country, that you know, they're in illegally. Maybe it was safer back home...
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Old 26th March 2020, 05:48 AM   #98
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AOC's boyfriend agrees 100%
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Old 26th March 2020, 06:22 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Bigfoot skeptics outrage now? Weird....
Very weird.
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Old 26th March 2020, 08:41 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
The pet name things just reinforces the cartoony nature of the daily outraging.
I think you're right that anybody who gives people pet names shouldn't be taken seriously in anything they say.
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Old 26th March 2020, 08:53 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
On the contrary. ICE are the ones transporting the kids. THEY can simply just tell us where the kids are going, and present evidence that it IS a suitable place to go.

"CP" and the people "in this very thread" did not invent ICE's federal court history when it comes to their on-record cavalier attitude towards the health and safety of minors in their custody.



Did you actually watch the video? At all?
I think if we've learned anything from James O'Keeffe it's that a video with an agenda is almost like no video at all.
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Old 26th March 2020, 08:12 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by GodMark2 View Post
April 9, 1865 looks to be one of the most recent examples I can find.
The GOP of today has no resemblence to the Republican party of 1865.
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Old 27th March 2020, 05:23 AM   #103
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Yes political partisanship still has a adherents in this day and age.
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Old 27th March 2020, 02:28 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Nosi View Post
The GOP of today has no resemblance to the Republican party of 1865.
The GOP of today has no resemblance to the Republican party before November 8, 2016
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Old 27th March 2020, 03:35 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The GOP of today has no resemblance to the Republican party before November 8, 2016
I'll give you a break because you aren't American, but it very much does. Trump isn't the cause, just the result. Trump just makes it more obvious. The Republican Party has been the party of racism, sexism, xenophobia, wealthism, and christianism for quite a long time now.
You know all those far-right judges Trump's been appointing (and McConnell annointing) to the federal courts? All selected by The Federalist Society, which incidentally is saying you can cure "Covid Flue" by gargling salt water. Every other Republican candidate would have nominated the exact same gang.

Sorry, off topic but needed to vent.
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Old 27th March 2020, 03:38 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I'll give you a break because you aren't American, but it very much does. Trump isn't the cause, just the result. Trump just makes it more obvious. The Republican Party has been the party of racism, sexism, xenophobia, wealthism, and christianism for quite a long time now.
You know all those far-right judges Trump's been appointing (and McConnell annointing) to the federal courts? All selected by The Federalist Society, which incidentally is saying you can cure "Covid Flue" by gargling salt water. Every other Republican candidate would have nominated the exact same gang.

Sorry, off topic but needed to vent.
OK, fair enough.

Shall we say that at least some aspects of the current GOP bear no resemblance?
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Old 27th March 2020, 09:02 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The GOP of today has no resemblance to the Republican party before November 8, 2016
I disagree. This was has been where the Republican Party has been heading for decades now. When you cultivate a base which chooses it's position on every issues based on the dictates of the party, sooner or later someone is going to come along and abuse that machinery.
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Old 27th March 2020, 09:41 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
I did address it, they are following crappy orders and generally deserve a crappy reputation given some of their tactics, as do the CBP, but she is gadfly and little better than Michael Moore some days. Given the source of the post its another day in the land of Outrage Fatigue. Meh...
So if I read you right, you admit what they did was wrong but it was more wrong to point it out?
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Old 27th March 2020, 11:51 PM   #109
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I don't know if it pertains to this case, but a "zero tolerance" policy does benefit private prison contractors or youth facility operators. The more bodies in the system, the more profitable those companies are. And they gouge the feds big-time. So in that case I do consider "trafficking" to be a legitimate term. Moving captive people around for profit.
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Old 28th March 2020, 12:43 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
So if I read you right, you admit what they did was wrong but it was more wrong to point it out?
Yep. That's how it reads to me!
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Old 30th March 2020, 10:07 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
The video in the post was filmed BY AOC and her staff of the encounter.

And yes they are acting just like the Gestapo (my comparison) and following those orders IS depravity. Medical experts are warning over and over about the spread of the virus and prison facilitiies, esp the ICE concentration camps are extremely vulnerable.

And your counter argument consists entirely of ad hom attacks. I note you offer no positive defense of a government agency deliberately shipping kids they have ripped from their families' arms into an infected zone under lockdown.
and brought to this country illegally when there's a legal path to citizenship so spare me.
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Old 30th March 2020, 10:16 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
and brought to this country illegally when there's a legal path to citizenship so spare me.
And once someone is "illegal" everything done to them is their fault.

Must be nice to have an entire group of people that you can enjoy the catharsis of anything bad happening to them being justified.
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Old 30th March 2020, 11:03 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
and brought to this country illegally when there's a legal path to citizenship so spare me.
Is that more than just a truism? Of course there's a legal path for some people eventually to become citizens, just as it's possible for someone to become rich and famous. And yet there are people who are not.

Apart from the rather obvious things pointed out by many, such as the fact that not every illegality justifies any penalty including the risk of death, I think that even if it's true that there is a legal path to citizenship, it's shortsighted to ignore the real world possibility for the actual people in question. Not everyone can afford the process or qualify, and children cannot control what their parents decide.

I think it's a faulty argument even if you believe that these people should be barred from the country, and even if you're right. To blame them for not availing themselves of an alternative that is not actually available is inherently inapt.
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Old 30th March 2020, 11:47 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Is that more than just a truism? Of course there's a legal path for some people eventually to become citizens, just as it's possible for someone to become rich and famous. And yet there are people who are not.

Apart from the rather obvious things pointed out by many, such as the fact that not every illegality justifies any penalty including the risk of death, I think that even if it's true that there is a legal path to citizenship, it's shortsighted to ignore the real world possibility for the actual people in question. Not everyone can afford the process or qualify, and children cannot control what their parents decide.

I think it's a faulty argument even if you believe that these people should be barred from the country, and even if you're right. To blame them for not availing themselves of an alternative that is not actually available is inherently inapt.
with the advent of Covid, they shouldn't be let it simply as a matter of Security and containment. But in principal, give them the paperwork and send them home, they fill out correctly and meet the criteria then they can try again the right way. Otherwise stay home.
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Old 31st March 2020, 08:08 AM   #115
carlitos
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Immigrants are much more likely to get Covid-19 here in the United States than they are in their home country. Blaming this virus on immigrant hordes is pure xenophobia and is not based in reality. Our country is the epicenter of this disease, not Mexico or Honduras. At this point, if the USA wanted to do something useful for the world, we would lock ourselves in, not lock other people out.
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Old 1st April 2020, 09:40 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Immigrants are much more likely to get Covid-19 here in the United States than they are in their home country. Blaming this virus on immigrant hordes is pure xenophobia and is not based in reality. Our country is the epicenter of this disease, not Mexico or Honduras. At this point, if the USA wanted to do something useful for the world, we would lock ourselves in, not lock other people out.
And in saying that you prove my point exactly. Well done.
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Old 5th April 2020, 02:02 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Did you actually watch the video? At all?
I did. And it raises more questions than what it purports to show.

@00:08 of AOC's facebook post, she says, "while we were then on the brink of instituting a shelter-in-place policy"
The nearest date I could find to where such a situation was deemed close (as in "on the brink") is March 17, 2020.
www(dot)nbcnews(dot)com/news/us-news/new-york-city-mayor-says-shelter-place-decision-coming-next-n1161516
It's closest interpretation was instituted on March 20. 2020.
www(dot)nytimes(dot)com/article/what-is-shelter-in-place-coronavirus(dot)html

@00:33 of AOC's facebook post, the video post itself is time-stamped March 22, 2020.
That is a Sunday.

@00:46 she claims to have received the call late on a Saturday night. The only Saturday that falls within this timeline would be March 21, which makes her expeditious post on March 22nd seem quite legit.

HOWEVER -

@02:27 the post claims that after AOC's involvement with the depicted event, ICE temporarily limited some of its procedures.

@0237 evidence of ICE's actions is source quoted and time-stamped March 18, 2020.

SO -

For this to have happened, per AOC's video timeline, the first available Saturday would have been March 14, well before shelter-in-place was on the brink, and making her FB post most untimely.

CONCLUSION -

IMHO, these suspicious inconsistencies, and the complete (to this point) lack of corroborating evidence, call into question the entire validity of the video. THESE (inconsistencies and/or corroborating evidence) are the things honest skeptics should be looking for.
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Old 6th April 2020, 09:00 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And once someone is "illegal" everything done to them is their fault.
It is, IF they know the inherent risk of, and are responsible for, their actions.
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Old 6th April 2020, 09:03 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Of course there's a legal path for some people eventually to become citizens, just as it's possible for someone to become rich and famous. And yet there are people who are not.
Not an ethical counterpoint. By your logic, if illegal immigrants are justified, so is becoming rich and famous by illegal means.
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Old 6th April 2020, 09:51 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by MBDK View Post
It is, IF they know the inherent risk of, and are responsible for, their actions.
If you steal a candy bar from a convenience store, you are responsible for being stabbed in the street days later?
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