ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 26th December 2019, 11:11 AM   #41
Manger Douse
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 301
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Outdoor cats are a scourge on local wildlife, even in suburban and urban areas. Feral cats likewise.



Urban foxes are not tame. They're not house pets. They're feral predators just like their country counterparts.



A fox raiding a chicken coop doesn't magically become not a pest, just because the coop happens to be within the city limits.
All the more reason to let the professionals deal with it then
Manger Douse is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 11:21 AM   #42
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 8,194
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Outdoor cats are a scourge on local wildlife, even in suburban and urban areas. Feral cats likewise.
I've seen them kill a few birds now and then, maybe a rabbit if they can get their hands on them, but "scourge" seems a little aggressive if you ask me.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Urban foxes are not tame. They're not house pets. They're feral predators just like their country counterparts.
I've read through a few of the replies to his posts, and it doesn't seem like this is entirely true. The feedback on there is that this is a really common occurrence in his part of the UK. Most aren't blaming him for killing the fox, they're blaming him for having insufficient protection of his chickens, and for killing an animal that was immobile. It was actually trapped, it wasn't a threat to the chickens at all.

This man couldn't have felt it was much of a threat either. He went out there in his wife's kimono. He didn't even feel the need to put pants on to battle the animal. Tough sell that it's something that needs immediate dispatching if you can't be bothered to put on pants.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
A fox raiding a chicken coop doesn't magically become not a pest, just because the coop happens to be within the city limits.
Being a pest isn't grounds to be bludgeoned to death either. This is a bit of a false dichotomy. I've said this before, today in fact, but there is a mile of gray area between beating a trapped animal to death and bragging about it on social media and letting it kill your chickens.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 11:24 AM   #43
Agatha
Winking at the Moon
Moderator
Deputy Admin
 
Agatha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 13,258
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Outdoor cats are a scourge on local wildlife, even in suburban and urban areas. Feral cats likewise.

Urban foxes are not tame. They're not house pets. They're feral predators just like their country counterparts.

A fox raiding a chicken coop doesn't magically become not a pest, just because the coop happens to be within the city limits.
Are you talking about in the USA or in the UK?
__________________
Why can't you be more like Agatha? - Loss Leader
Agatha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 11:39 AM   #44
Manger Douse
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 301
Originally Posted by Manger Douse View Post
All the more reason to let the professionals deal with it then
And by that I don't mean Bodie and Doyle
Manger Douse is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 11:42 AM   #45
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 31,924
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
One aspect I haven't seen touched on yet is the class aspect; fox hunting was much beloved by the upper classes, and there's even been talk of the Tories making it legal again. Someone from the upper classes talking about killing foxes is bound to cause some class-based reaction.

Maybe not always in the direction you would imagine. Back in the mid 20th century, a chicken farmer killing a fox was potentially a problem because it would piss off the local hunt, which would likely include the guy you were renting the farm from.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 11:56 AM   #46
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arcadia, Greece
Posts: 25,999
Standard chicken wire is not recommended for protecting hens; it should be the sturdier welded wire which leaves no way for a fox to get entangled as it's too rigid at the joins. The man is a chicken amateur.

Meanwhile, 'vermin' is as meaningless a word as 'weed' - those words just denote something inconvenient to certain groups of people. Arable farmers detest poppies while gardeners might love them. Keepers of chickens might hate foxes while market gardeners value them as they take plenty of rabbits, the market gardener's enemy.
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 12:04 PM   #47
alfaniner
Penultimate Amazing
 
alfaniner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 21,893
Well, I guess we found out what job Mayday finally ended up with. I guess the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleader thing didn't work out.
__________________
Science is self-correcting.
Woo is self-contradicting.
alfaniner is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 12:04 PM   #48
Manger Douse
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 301
As usual the Sunday Sport have the hottest take:


Twatting a fox and then boasting about it on social media is perhaps evidence of an unsound mind and that's from the people who bring you stories of sex dwarfs ******** on carpets
Manger Douse is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 12:25 PM   #49
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 23,897
Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
Are you talking about in the USA or in the UK?
*Confused* Do the foxes know which country they are in?
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 12:27 PM   #50
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 8,194
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Confused* Do the foxes know which country they are in?
I think the point they're trying to make is foxes might act differently in different countries depending on what their existence in said country has been like over their time.

The UK has been "settled" a bit longer than the US so the wildlife has become more used to the lifestyle of that country.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 12:38 PM   #51
Agatha
Winking at the Moon
Moderator
Deputy Admin
 
Agatha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 13,258
Different foxes and different attitudes to them. It matters, in the context of deciding whether the barrister in question is a twat or not.
__________________
Why can't you be more like Agatha? - Loss Leader
Agatha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 12:42 PM   #52
P.J. Denyer
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 6,553
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I think the point they're trying to make is foxes might act differently in different countries depending on what their existence in said country has been like over their time.

The UK has been "settled" a bit longer than the US so the wildlife has become more used to the lifestyle of that country.
That's not necessarily a good thing. Urban foxes are used to people, see us as a useful source of food, but are not domestication. They aren't usually dangerous but there are occasional cases of them coming into houses and attacking babies and small children (it became a Red Top cause du jour around 2013 or so for a couple of weeks). Coming into biting range of a wild fox (especially one that was in a state of distress) without serious protective gear would be very stupid, although on the bright side, in the UK there is no need to fear rabies. The best option would be to call the RSPCA.
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion

"Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 12:44 PM   #53
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 45,878
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Do you mean cosplay or formal wear?
Formal wear is just codified cosplay.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 12:50 PM   #54
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,347
Complete idiot tweeting about it, but putting an animal down caught in wire, assuming it is barbed, is hardly the newest thing in the world if it is suffering.

The oddest bit to me is why a british person, especially a big time lawyer dude owns a baseball bat and wonders round with it.

Cricket bat I would get, but hardly anyone in european countries outside of the US plays softball, let alone baseball
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 12:50 PM   #55
Agatha
Winking at the Moon
Moderator
Deputy Admin
 
Agatha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 13,258
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Formal wear is just codified cosplay.
This wine must be stronger than I though, because I read that as "codpieced cosplay".
__________________
Why can't you be more like Agatha? - Loss Leader
Agatha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 01:07 PM   #56
Shepherd
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 330
Think of all the local mice, birds and bunnies that might get a few extra days of life before they're eaten alive thanks to this guy!

The last dead fox I had, I gave to a taxidermist, btw. I didn't kill it myself, though. I found it next to the road.

When I helped my friends butcher a couple of their goats (I got there too late for the slaughter), I was told they were first stunned with a blow to the head from a baseball bat before they had their throats slit. An initial blow to the head is a "kindness" according to this beginner's guide to goat butchery:

http://www.casalinho.com/projects/go...for-beginners/
Shepherd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 01:15 PM   #57
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,347
Originally Posted by Shepherd View Post
Think of all the local mice, birds and bunnies that might get a few extra days of life before they're eaten alive thanks to this guy!

The last dead fox I had, I gave to a taxidermist, btw. I didn't kill it myself, though. I found it next to the road.

When I helped my friends butcher a couple of their goats (I got there too late for the slaughter), I was told they were first stunned with a blow to the head from a baseball bat before they had their throats slit. An initial blow to the head is a "kindness" according to this beginner's guide to goat butchery:

http://www.casalinho.com/projects/go...for-beginners/
Would you prefer they slit it's throat while it was conscious?
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 01:16 PM   #58
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arcadia, Greece
Posts: 25,999
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Complete idiot tweeting about it, but putting an animal down caught in wire, assuming it is barbed, is hardly the newest thing in the world if it is suffering.
Very unlikely to be barbed. This is a back garden chicken coop in London so, apart from his own chickens that could get snagged, there are people and roaming cats around.

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The oddest bit to me is why a british person, especially a big time lawyer dude owns a baseball bat and wonders round with it.

Cricket bat I would get, but hardly anyone in european countries outside of the US plays softball, let alone baseball
Indeed. Probably for 'home protection', and I'm not kidding.
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 01:19 PM   #59
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 43,031
Originally Posted by Manger Douse View Post
All the more reason to let the professionals deal with it then
I don't see how that follows at all. Can you explain your reasoning? I understand "we should let the pros deal with it because they're trained to do it humanely." I don't understand "we should let the pros deal with it because it's a problem."

Last edited by theprestige; 26th December 2019 at 01:21 PM.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 01:20 PM   #60
P.J. Denyer
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 6,553
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Indeed. Probably for 'home protection', and I'm not kidding.
I bought one as a fun way to fire off tennis balls for my dog.
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion

"Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 01:20 PM   #61
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6,118
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm thinking urban foxes are just as much pests and vermin as feral cats. This fox was literally getting at henhouse. That's classic pest/vermin behavior, and classic fox-as-pest behavior.
Quote:
But the lawyer, who later apologised for his first tweet, was initially unrepentant. Asked why he had killed the fox rather than disentangling it and releasing it, he replied that the animals are “not especially friendly up close”.
His first explanation for killing it had nothing to do with protecting his chickens, it was that he could end up getting hurt while trying to let it loose. Which makes it all the more astounding that he didn't ask for advice or help from professionals.
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 01:25 PM   #62
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,347
I don't know

Agree given the surroundings it probably wasn't barbed

We don't really know the full story apart from some idiot poncy bloke tweeting something horrible as if it is a sign of bravado

For what it is worth when I was really young I was on a farm with the old man whose mate who owned it had some grey hounds.

One ran full speed into a barb wire fence.

Was one of the most gruesome things I wish I could wipe from my memory, and we killed the thing as fast as we could.

Different scenario obviously, but it is the reason I am open to more explanation
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

Last edited by cullennz; 26th December 2019 at 01:30 PM.
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 01:26 PM   #63
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 43,031
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Formal wear is just codified cosplay.
Stipulated without reservation.

However, there is a distinction in between a costume party and a formal occasion, that is lost when Brits and Americans talk about "fancy dress".
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 01:42 PM   #64
Manger Douse
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 301
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't see how that follows at all. Can you explain your reasoning? I understand "we should let the pros deal with it because they're trained to do it humanely." I don't understand "we should let the pros deal with it because it's a problem."
Both, but as you said they aren't tame animals so Iet the professionals try and untangle it
Manger Douse is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 01:46 PM   #65
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 45,878
Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
This wine must be stronger than I though, because I read that as "codpieced cosplay".
Now I want to know what kind of formal parties you go to.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 01:52 PM   #66
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 54,577
Why do people think it's a good idea to announce to the world what they're up to? Even if you're up to something completely innocent and uncontroversial it's still your business, not everybody else's. Keep your yapper shut! That goes double when you feel the urge to confess to a killing. Nothing good ever comes of admitting to a killing.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 02:09 PM   #67
p0lka
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,788
They're a barrister,
there's no evidence of anyone killing a fox,
other than words,
media jumps on it and expands it,
has the barrister got a new book coming out?

Last edited by p0lka; 26th December 2019 at 02:12 PM.
p0lka is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 02:13 PM   #68
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 43,031
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Why do people think it's a good idea to announce to the world what they're up to? Even if you're up to something completely innocent and uncontroversial it's still your business, not everybody else's. Keep your yapper shut! That goes double when you feel the urge to confess to a killing. Nothing good ever comes of admitting to a killing.
All of my this. Whatever else we each may think about foxes and killing, I think we can all agree that this man is a colossal idiot for tweeting about it.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 02:28 PM   #69
Hellbound
Merchant of Doom
 
Hellbound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 14,243
Mistake post - move along
__________________
History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells "Can't you remember anything I told you?" and lets fly with a club. - John w. Campbell
Hellbound is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 04:06 PM   #70
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 8,194
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I don't know

Agree given the surroundings it probably wasn't barbed

We don't really know the full story apart from some idiot poncy bloke tweeting something horrible as if it is a sign of bravado

For what it is worth when I was really young I was on a farm with the old man whose mate who owned it had some grey hounds.

One ran full speed into a barb wire fence.

Was one of the most gruesome things I wish I could wipe from my memory, and we killed the thing as fast as we could.

Different scenario obviously, but it is the reason I am open to more explanation
From what I understand from the below statement by him, and the comments on his twitter posts, it was just some netting:

Quote:
“[Killing the fox] wasn’t a great deal of fun,” Maugham tweeted. “It got caught up in the protective netting around the chickens and I wasn’t sure what else to do."
It just sounds like the fox was stuck, and that was it. I really don't see many people being up in arms that people kill foxes that get into henhouses at all. The biggest complaints are that a) he beat it to death with a bat b) throwing a blanket over it and calling the vets would have been much easier for all parties involved c) tweeting about it like he was trying to talk about how manly he was and d) why doesn't he have proper fencing for his chickens when there appears to be tons of UK documentation on how to properly build a henhouse?
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 04:07 PM   #71
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 27,019
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Foxes aren't nice to chickens. Chicken farmers aren't nice to foxes. Animal rights nerds aren't nice to chicken farmers. Now if we can arrange for the chickens to be mean to the animal rights nerds, it would be the circle of the life.

Actually, if we could arrange for the foxes to go after the animal rights nerds, that would solve everyone's problems. Except the nerds, but what are they going to do? Be mean to the foxes?
It reminds me of that logic puzzle. You have one boat and you need to transport one chicken, one fox, one QC and one animal rights activist from one island to the next. How can you take them all across without leaving any of them to rip each other’s throats out, bludgeon each other with baseball bats or spray them with deadly vitriol?
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 04:11 PM   #72
sackett
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 5,942
He should speak to his steward and to the under-gardener. They are the people responsible, not the owner of the demense.

And he should most certainly not have given them Boxing Day off.
__________________
Fill the seats of justice with good men; not so absolute in goodness as to forget what human frailty is. -- Thomas Jefferson

What region of the earth is not filled with our calamities? -- Virgil
sackett is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 04:33 PM   #73
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 27,019
Originally Posted by sackett View Post
He should speak to his steward and to the under-gardener. They are the people responsible, not the owner of the demense.

And he should most certainly not have given them Boxing Day off.
Boxing Day is traditionally the day off for the staff. Making them work on Boxing Day is akin to failing to wear a red coat while administering the coup de grace to Basil Brush. A most terrible faux pas that would have one blackballed from the gentleman’s club.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 04:35 PM   #74
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 11,693
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I guess it's just the American in me. Killing a predator that gets near your animals is (in most circumstances) nothing really to get worked up about. It might not have been the ideal course of action from the scenario he presented, but it's not outrage worthy as it's been presented here.

I feel like I'm missing some cultural context here.
Makes me think of of an old Benny Hill sketch "Oh Dad you can't shoot Flicka, you just can't" (Loud bang). "Oh Dad, you promised that I could do it"
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 04:40 PM   #75
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 14,740
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
From what I understand from the below statement by him, and the comments on his twitter posts, it was just some netting:



It just sounds like the fox was stuck, and that was it. I really don't see many people being up in arms that people kill foxes that get into henhouses at all. The biggest complaints are that a) he beat it to death with a bat b) throwing a blanket over it and calling the vets would have been much easier for all parties involved c) tweeting about it like he was trying to talk about how manly he was and d) why doesn't he have proper fencing for his chickens when there appears to be tons of UK documentation on how to properly build a henhouse?


All of this.

And the way he kept doubling down on Twitter was arrogant and extraordinary. Almost as if he was enjoying the outrage/concern. However, I did very strongly sense that the tone of his comments/replies on Twitter abruptly changed - something like an hour after his very first tweet. All of a sudden he became conciliatory, non-cocky, somewhat apologetic and far quieter. I wonder if either a) he had a moment of self-realisation at that point, or b) he got a phone call/email/DM from someone with some, erm, advice.

And yes, for clarification, it appears that this fox got entangled in some netting prior to him clubbing it to death. England&Wales law seems fairly clear in this area: you're allowed to trap foxes, but only with approved snares or traps. And once they're trapped, you're allowed to kill them - but ONLY in a small number of strictly-prescribed ways. Suffice it to say, clubbing them to death with a blunt instrument is not one of those ways.

On the face of it, therefore, Maugham has broken the law. The reason I started this thread, and the reason why I thought it was so remarkable a story (and, I think, why much of the media - including the BBC - thought likewise) was a) the fact that Maugham is a leading barrister, and b) the fact that Maugham thought it would make for an interesting/entertaining tweet (plus his downward spiral of follow-up tweets). Of course there are far, far worse offences being carried out up and down the land. And in fact I have a reasonable suspicion that this will all end up in any case with Maugham receiving a visit from the RSPCA and a reminder of his responsibilities under the law. But it still stands, IMO, as genuinely astonishing behaviour (both the unilateral messy "cull" and the decision to tweet about it in the way he did) from someone who's supposed to be one of the top legal minds in the UK.


Lastly, that Guardian article about the incident which I linked to earlier has perhaps one of the better opening sentences of any newspaper article in 2019:

"The prominent remain-supporting lawyer Jolyon Maugham QC has announced on Twitter that he clubbed a fox to death on Boxing Day morning, while wearing his wife’s satin kimono and nursing a hangover."
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 04:41 PM   #76
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 43,031
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
It reminds me of that logic puzzle. You have one boat and you need to transport one chicken, one fox, one QC and one animal rights activist from one island to the next. How can you take them all across without leaving any of them to rip each other’s throats out, bludgeon each other with baseball bats or spray them with deadly vitriol?
First, drown either the QC or the ARA. Then take them across with the others.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 04:53 PM   #77
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 14,740
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I guess it's just the American in me. Killing a predator that gets near your animals is (in most circumstances) nothing really to get worked up about. It might not have been the ideal course of action from the scenario he presented, but it's not outrage worthy as it's been presented here.

I feel like I'm missing some cultural context here.

Like I said: in England&Wales, you're allowed to trap and kill foxes. BUT.... you're only allowed to trap them using approved traps/snares, and then (if they're not already dead) you're only allowed to kill them in a small number of prescribed ways. Which do not include bludgeoning them to death with a baseball bat.

See, it's called basic animal welfare and humanity. I realise you might come back with something like "What's the difference? The fox, the vermin fox, died one way or another at the end of the day". But if that's the case, I'd ask why (for example) there are rules about the ways in which livestock for slaughter are transported and killed. If at the end of the day they're intended to be killed for food, then why can't we cram them body-to-body in the trucks taking them to the slaughterhouse, and why can't we have a bloke jab them with a blunt spear until they collapse and die from blood loss and cardiac arrest? They end up dead all the same, don't they?

I'd certainly agree that some within the twittersphere have gone overboard in their condemnation - whether through a misplaced zeal around animal rights or some form of animus against Maugham personally. But - it bears repeating - if he did what he tweeted about doing, he a) acted in an unpleasant and inhumane manner, and b) committed a criminal offence. And he's a leading barrister and QC.

(Oh and per his account, it's not even as if the fox could have been significantly injured and it was merely a case of administering the coup de grace* - rather, Maugham stated that the fox had merely become entangled in netting. There therefore appears to be little doubt that the fox could - and indeed should - have been cut free and released by a professional who knew what they were doing (and remember, the fox was not trapped in a manner commensurate with England&Wales law in the first place).


* As a slight aside, I'm always amused when people - assuming they possess a sophisticated knowledge of French pronunciation - pronounce this as "koo (correct) de graaa (incorrect)"
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 06:14 PM   #78
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Townsend, Washington
Posts: 26,200
Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I bought one as a fun way to fire off tennis balls for my dog.
Trebuchet. Just sayin'.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 06:17 PM   #79
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,871
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
His first explanation for killing it had nothing to do with protecting his chickens, it was that he could end up getting hurt while trying to let it loose. Which makes it all the more astounding that he didn't ask for advice or help from professionals.
And lose the opportunity to bash an animals head in with a baseball bat? Where's the fun in that?
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2019, 06:19 PM   #80
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 43,031
Doesn't seem like he treated the fox any more cruelly than the fox was gonna treat those chickens.

You think if the fox had found a chicken stuck in a fence, he would have tried to disentangle it? Called for a professional?

No. The fox would probably have started eating that chicken before it was even dead.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:06 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.