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Old 12th March 2020, 10:26 AM   #121
xjx388
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
L'Advoquette de la Deville:

A being that created time and space would not logically be bound by it, or be found within it. It would be beyond both.
Why?

Quote:
The garage, of course is a small area fully bound and searchable. What is the comparable search area for a being that created the entirety of the universe? Have you searched it?

The garage argument is certainly straw, ascribing local boundaries of the search to the area created by it's creator, who probably wouldn't be there. If I bake a cake, you wouldn't look for me inside the ******* cake.
No, I wouldn't. But I could definitiely find you outside the cake. Probably eating it. You and your creation necessarily exist in the same "realm," for want of a better word. You can't create something outside of the "realm" you exist in.

Now is it even remotely possible that the creator of our "realm" of existence created it and then retreated to another "realm" we cannot detect? Sure, but that creator is no different than the invisible garage dragon -unfalsifiable.
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Old 12th March 2020, 10:27 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
See? Again you use one form of irrelevancy to avoid addressing points.
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Old 12th March 2020, 10:29 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
No. It is the "anything outside of this space is irrelevant" idea that the garage analogy invites that makes it less than useful.
It's the "All space must be relevant" revision -- the one that opens up a gap so wide anything will fit -- that makes the apogetics moot.
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Old 12th March 2020, 10:31 AM   #124
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"If we define God as anything that possibly exists anywhere in the universe doing anything you can't prove (and therefore can't say) he doesn't exist."

Okay. I define my Dragon the same way.

And right back to square one.
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Old 12th March 2020, 10:37 AM   #125
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I'm going to break this down to the most basic/abstract terms I can muster, because several posters have gotten hung up on literally a single word in Sagan's analogy.

Take two people. We'll call them Believer and Skeptic.

1. Believer makes a claim about reality.
2. The claim entails several measurable implications.
3. Skeptic performs an experiment/analysis/observation against one of those implications.
4. Skeptic notes that experiment/analysis/observation is not compatible with the implication.
5. Believer makes an ad hoc hypothesisWP to hand-wave this failure.
6. Repeat steps 3-5 several times.

Conclusion: The more steps 3-5 get repeated, the more difficult it is to distinguish between the truth and falsehood of Believer's claim, thus rendering it an empty claim.

I'm not going to tell you that this applies to all claims of God, but it's more common than most people realize. Here's a commonplace example:

Believer: I know God is real because he answers prayers. Everything you ask for in prayer shall be received.
Skeptic: But people pray for healing all the time. Studies have been performed showing that it has no effect on healing whatsoever.
Believer: When God answers prayer, sometimes the answer is "no."

You can see this in other areas, such as the claim that the universe is designed to sustain life, that God has laid out perfect moral rules, or that God written a perfect book with no scientific errors.
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Old 12th March 2020, 10:38 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
There are two problems (probably more) that I have with this analogy:
  1. "in the garage"
This implies that the discussion is only about whether there are gods on Earth.
No, it doesn't.



Try this:

Garage = universe
Dragon = God

Last edited by carlitos; 12th March 2020 at 10:40 AM. Reason: tags
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Old 12th March 2020, 10:43 AM   #127
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It should also be noted that even the "Oh but God's not like a dragon in a garage" excuses that don't even work, especially don't work on any version of God that people functionally believe in on a practical day to day level.

Again the "God I specifically made up to use in arguments" doesn't concern me.
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Old 12th March 2020, 10:57 AM   #128
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More importantly, the garage doesn't really matter. Psion's position in the whole thread has been a case of the Extended analogy fallacy, never mind that there's a reason why it's a textbook fallacy.

The whole point of an analogy, simile or metaphor is to illustrate an attribute X of situation/entity/whatever Y by using the better known situation/entity/whatever Z that has the same attribute. Basically it's taking attribute Y from the better known context of Z into the one of Y.

Consider Shakespeare's "all the world's a stage":
All the world’s a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts,
It uses the better known for his audience example of a theatre, to illustrate something about life.

But the key is that it only applies to those relevant attributes. An analogy, metaphor or simile are not the same thing as an identity. It doesn't mean you can take it to mean that everything else is totally shared too, nor that lack of sharing some completely different attributes is a disproof.

Basically the stupid thing to do -- and incidentally a textbook fallacy -- would be to go, "OMG, do you mean there's a cloth curtain in front of life? Or that life is a raised surface in front of an audience? That's stupid!!!" That attribute was never a part of the analogy.

It's an analogy, not an identity. The only thing 100% equivalent to life is life, and the only thing 100% equivalent to a theatre stage is a theatre stage.

And really that seems to be what this whole daft thread is about: complaining that the analogy of dragons in a garage isn't an identity.
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Old 12th March 2020, 11:10 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Garage = subsection of the universe
Dragon = <name of specific God>
ftfy.

Why talk about a garage in the first place if it is supposed to represent the entire universe?
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Old 12th March 2020, 11:15 AM   #130
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You can't invoke a "Specific God" that you never get around to defining.

Your "Specific God" can't always be "A God made up of whatever special pleadings make the current argument not work."

Give us your God to work with psion, we've been begging you to do that for multiple threads.
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Old 12th March 2020, 11:20 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You can't invoke a "Specific God" that you never get around to defining.

Your "Specific God" can't always be "A God made up of whatever special pleadings make the current argument not work."

Give us your God to work with psion, we've been begging you to do that for multiple threads.
Waits for . . . “Well my specific god is specifically an unspecified specific god” . . .

Or more likely, no coherent answer at all . . .
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Old 12th March 2020, 11:31 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You can't invoke a "Specific God" that you never get around to defining.

Your "Specific God" can't always be "A God made up of whatever special pleadings make the current argument not work."

Give us your God to work with psion, we've been begging you to do that for multiple threads.
Since you reserve to yourself the right to decide what sort of god is allowed to be argued about it seems the burden is upon you to argue both sides.
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Old 12th March 2020, 11:35 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
ftfy.

Why talk about a garage in the first place if it is supposed to represent the entire universe?
If a god exists in the entire universe then it exists in every garage ever built. Saying “there’s an invisible dragon in my garage” doesn’t preclude/prevent the dragon from also existing in the entire universe.
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Old 12th March 2020, 11:38 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Then we haven't got past step 1. I am not asserting that such entities exist. I am only saying that we can't say the exist or not because we don't know.

Okay, I agree with you. We can't say they exist or not because we don't know.

What's step 2 of that?


Quote:
The funny thing is that if somebody said, "there is an invisible dragon in my garage", most of us would just say "Yeah, whatever".

But when it comes to gods, you don't even have to rise to the level of assertion. Merely failing to vehemently deny any possible existence of any god whatsoever will bring the wrath of the entire forum on you.

So, is this a callout thread? Are you just complaining about the style of argument of some particular posters? It can't be the entire forum because I'm part of the forum and I happily agreed with you. Are you just venting about certain people with only the slightest nod to the Membership Agreement by not explicitly naming them?

You don't like dragons in garages. I get that. I agree with you never to use that analogy. Now, is there something you'd like to discuss with me wherein that analogy is off limits.

Otherwise, I am baffled as to the point of this thread.
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Old 12th March 2020, 11:41 AM   #135
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So we can just drop the pretense that this thread was anything but a fringe reset right, since we just immediately went back to the same argument?

It's like Jabba getting argued into a corner in his Shroud and Immortality threads so starting a "Effective Debate Thread" and... immediately getting argued into the same corners there.
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Old 12th March 2020, 11:42 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
ftfy.

Why talk about a garage in the first place if it is supposed to represent the entire universe?
"Oh, my. This is the first time I interact with humans and I totally don't understand the concept of an abstract or illustration. What are those lines on your "map"? I don't see them out here in the field!"



Are you seriously pretending NOT to understand that the garage IS the universe in the analogy? Are you seriously not able to use abstractions?
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Old 12th March 2020, 11:45 AM   #137
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I must again emphasize that the dragon in my garage argument is not: there is no invisible dragon in my garage so there is no god in the universe.

The argument is: you cannot deny my belief that there is an invisible dragon in my garage because it has the same logic and strength of evidence as your belief that there is an invisible god in the universe.

BTW: for the same reason no religion can deny the equal validity of any other religion's god.
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Old 12th March 2020, 11:52 AM   #138
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Nobody buys the "Oh lordy me I'm an alien robot who's never encountered human language before... what's this? 'A Metaphor' you say? I have never encountered such a thing." routine okay apologists? It just makes you look intentionally obtuse, not clever.
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Old 12th March 2020, 11:55 AM   #139
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It is interesting and fun to discuss theology and logic. But always it becomes obvious that many believers unconsciously place their god(s), religious views, and texts in a special pleading category. They have been taught to do so since childhood and often do not even recognize that they have done so. It is just a natural part of how they think about their religion.

Providing analogies and logic doesn't work because believers often truly can't seen/accept how they apply. And remember the advocates and leadership of most religions have recognized the flaws for hundreds or thousands and years and have spent lifetimes inventing "explanations" of these flaws to offer to fellow believers.
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Old 12th March 2020, 11:56 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Any particular part you wanted me to look at? A quick search uncovered the following bit:
God's action, however, is not exhausted in his lordship over history; he is also the King of creation: the whole universe responds to his call as Creator. Not only does he determine the boundless constellations of stars, but he names each one and hence defines its nature and characteristics (cf. Ps 147[146]: 4).
But I doubt that this is what you were thinking of.
I think you would do well to read as much as you can, your ignorance of the RRC and their doctrine and beliefs is pretty total so anything you read will inform you.
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Old 12th March 2020, 11:59 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Even though I read Sagan's book (a long time ago) I thought the standard reference was an "invisible pink unicorn". Not sure where I got that from.
I don't know where that started but we used to use that many years ago here. It was used to demonstrate not only the same point as the dragon but also how giving it attributes that are contradictory, like many gods the religions define, is inherently silly.
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Old 12th March 2020, 12:07 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I don't know where that started but we used to use that many years ago here. It was used to demonstrate not only the same point as the dragon but also how giving it attributes that are contradictory, like many gods the religions define, is inherently silly.
I'm certain "invisible pink" is a color in the 64 Crayola crayon box...
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Old 12th March 2020, 12:09 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Why?





..snip....
It's another example of confusing a grammatically correct sentence as having meaning. It is really again the ontological argument for a god, the example I use to show the fallacy is the sentence "The starship accelerated to the speed of light and beyond." That sentence seems to be meaningful but of course it isn't because it can't happen. (In fiction it can of course be "true".)

If someone wants to claim god *could* exist "outside" the universe it is a rather extraordinary claim, the burden is to show such a thing is possible BEFORE you start claiming it is an attribute of your god.
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Old 12th March 2020, 12:12 PM   #144
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The Ur example of the metaphor is Bertrand Russell's Teapot, a hypothetical china teapot orbiting between Mars and Earth that believers were invited to prove doesn't exist he first suggested in a 1952 magazine article.

The Invisible Pink Unicorn, near as I can tell, started way back in the very early days of the internet on alt.atheism and other BBSs roundabout 1990 or so, the point being that you can't prove that Unicorns don't have magical powers that let them be invisible and pink at the same time.

The parable of trying to disprove a dragon in a garage while every criteria put forward to test for it is answered with a special pleading was put forth by Carl Sagan in his 1995 book "The Demon Haunted World."

They all make the same point; to point out the absurdity of making these big, aggressive to the point of bullying, showy all-to-dos about "uncertainty" but only doing it when you gris-gris is dare challenged.
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Old 12th March 2020, 12:14 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Well the garage seems to be an important part of the analogy to a lot of other people in this thread.
Its not. It could be a woodshed, or a porch or a den or a toolshed, or in Schroedinger's box with the cat. It also doesn't have to be a dragon. It could be an invisible, non-corporeal, floating unicorn. The analogy still holds.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Leaving that aside, Carl Sagan's assertion that "Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless" could easily apply to the concept of alien life. It could even apply to the idea of aliens being present but having technology that is sufficiently advanced that they can avoid detection by human technology.
You're right. There is no evidence that life exists anywhere else in the universe besides here, but there sure are a lot of places that seem to have the right conditions, and the earth has a very wide range of extreme inhospitable conditions where life does exist.

That life does exist elsewhere is reasonable speculation, by intelligent, thinking people, based on what we know about life here, and conditions in the rest of the universe. You can't say the same thing for the existence of God - all we have to go on is what we read in the 2000 year old subsequential translations of incoherent, contradictory scribblings by a bunch of itinerant, Middle-Eastern goat-herders.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Is there any reason why we must focus on a silly made-up example rather than a slightly more plausible but equally untestable example?
You're the one who's focusing on it, so much so that you even made a thread about it. I think you are so butt-hurt that you cannot defeat the argument Sagan makes, that you created this thread to poison the well, and it has back-fired on you as you get your hurt butt kicked.
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Old 12th March 2020, 12:20 PM   #146
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Jesus Christ, people did the movie "Never Ending Story" cause you fall to the floor, clutching your temples and screaming at the pure existential Lovecraftian horror of a movie with that title actually ending?
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Old 12th March 2020, 12:22 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Jesus Christ, people did the movie "Never Ending Story" cause you fall to the floor, clutching your temples and screaming at the pure existential Lovecraftian horror of a movie with that title actually ending?
No, but the scene with the horse did. I can't believe they put that in a kids movie.
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Old 12th March 2020, 01:40 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
ftfy.

Why talk about a garage in the first place if it is supposed to represent the entire universe?
Because it's an analogy. I reject your changes completely. It works just fine.

Garage = universe.
Dragon = God.
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Old 12th March 2020, 01:50 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
No one is arguing that it is, Brosef.

The argument here is that athiests want proof (or really lack of proof) of a god, within their own boundaries. A theist starts from the assumption that a god would be outside of those limited boundaries. So you are arguing at cross purposes right out of the gate.

When you find the edges of time and space and get a peek beyond, there will be more equal premises for this kind of argument. Till then, not so much.
Ok. The universe was formed by universe forming elves. While they successfully formed a universe, they all perished in the effort and this is why we cannot now detect them.

Am I right? Or am I wrong?

And how can you tell one way or the other?

And should we engage in the effort to find remnants of those elves as a valid scientific effort?

Should we invest in probes to venture out into space seeking the evidence for those elves?

Or those pixies?

Or those unicorns?

Or the garage dragons?

Or Thor?

Or Vishnu?

Or Cthulhu? (Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.)

Or the FSM (Ramen)?

Or any of the countless thousands of proposed deities?

Do you really think that would be a good expenditure of resources?

Or should we rather wait until some deity rocks up and makes itself known before wasting time and resources on absurdities?
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Old 12th March 2020, 04:01 PM   #150
Deadie
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
It could even apply to the idea of aliens being present but having technology that is sufficiently advanced that they can avoid detection by human technology.
Yes, with the takeaway being that if such aliens were to be, and yet could not be detected by any means, then what is the difference if they exist or not?

Quote:
Is there any reason why we must focus on a silly made-up example rather than a slightly more plausible but equally untestable example?
You are really missing the point. It's not about making any kind of actual qualitative comparison between a "god" or "creator deity" and some wacky and whimsical dragon. The dragon is a literary motif that is a representation of unfalsifiable claims and can be just about anything. In the book, the invisible dragon is the concept of UFOs and alien abduction in particular. But it could just as well apply to "gods" or atlantis or hydrinos or cgi airplanes.
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Old 12th March 2020, 04:09 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Every time I dare to post in this section, others immediately try to change the topic of the particular thread to "invisible dragons in the garage" regardless of the actual topic nor what I have posted.

I thought that I would create this thread so all of those arguments can be dealt with once and for all.

I would rather that the comparison be with "undetectable entities in the garage" but I understand that everybody wants to sillify the discussion.
I don't understand this post.

Are you not aware of the garage dragon rebuttal?

Are you not aware of the arguments it rebuts?

Do you not understand how the rebuttal works?

Are you just taking the piss?
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Old 12th March 2020, 04:37 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Every time I dare to post in this section, others immediately try to change the topic of the particular thread to "invisible dragons in the garage" regardless of the actual topic nor what I have posted.

I thought that I would create this thread so all of those arguments can be dealt with once and for all.

I would rather that the comparison be with "undetectable entities in the garage" but I understand that everybody wants to sillify the discussion.
Sillified? Like Zeus? Or Wotan? Or Vishnu? Or Osiris? Or Ra? Or Mars? Or Thor? Or Allah? Or Yahweh?

An invisible dragon in the garage is definitely silly. But no more than every hypothesis for a god I have ever heard. Name one that isn't silly.
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Old 12th March 2020, 04:46 PM   #153
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Silly or not, the attribute that's shared between contexts in that analogy is THE SAME. It could be about other gods in the universe, or invisible dragons in a garage, or the original version about a teapot in outer space, or whatever. It's still the same analogy, and trying to pick on it via "but some OTHER attribute isn't also shared" is still missing the point of what an analogy even IS. Again, it's not an identity.
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Old 12th March 2020, 04:47 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Sillified? Like Zeus? Or Wotan? Or Vishnu? Or Osiris? Or Ra? Or Mars? Or Thor? Or Allah? Or Yahweh?

An invisible dragon in the garage is definitely silly. But no more than every hypothesis for a god I have ever heard. Name one that isn't silly.
So silly it's almost like insane
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Old 12th March 2020, 04:49 PM   #155
HansMustermann
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Sillified? Like Zeus? Or Wotan? Or Vishnu? Or Osiris? Or Ra? Or Mars? Or Thor? Or Allah? Or Yahweh?
Oi! You leave Thor out of this, ok? I've seen him on Netflix and he's not silly at all
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Old 12th March 2020, 04:49 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Sillified? Like Zeus? Or Wotan? Or Vishnu? Or Osiris? Or Ra? Or Mars? Or Thor? Or Allah? Or Yahweh?

An invisible dragon in the garage is definitely silly. But no more than every hypothesis for a god I have ever heard. Name one that isn't silly.
Cthulhu. It isn't silly. It's insane. Or at least, you will after you roll that D100.
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Old 12th March 2020, 04:50 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
More importantly, the garage doesn't really matter. Psion's position in the whole thread has been a case of the Extended analogy fallacy, never mind that there's a reason why it's a textbook fallacy.

The whole point of an analogy, simile or metaphor is to illustrate an attribute X of situation/entity/whatever Y by using the better known situation/entity/whatever Z that has the same attribute. Basically it's taking attribute Y from the better known context of Z into the one of Y.

Consider Shakespeare's "all the world's a stage":
All the world’s a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts,
It uses the better known for his audience example of a theatre, to illustrate something about life.

But the key is that it only applies to those relevant attributes. An analogy, metaphor or simile are not the same thing as an identity. It doesn't mean you can take it to mean that everything else is totally shared too, nor that lack of sharing some completely different attributes is a disproof.

Basically the stupid thing to do -- and incidentally a textbook fallacy -- would be to go, "OMG, do you mean there's a cloth curtain in front of life? Or that life is a raised surface in front of an audience? That's stupid!!!" That attribute was never a part of the analogy.

It's an analogy, not an identity. The only thing 100% equivalent to life is life, and the only thing 100% equivalent to a theatre stage is a theatre stage.

And really that seems to be what this whole daft thread is about: complaining that the analogy of dragons in a garage isn't an identity.
tl;dr - Analogies always fail. Because even when they succeed, there's always somebody who's going to take it the wrong way.
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Old 12th March 2020, 04:52 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
ftfy.

Why talk about a garage in the first place if it is supposed to represent the entire universe?
Are you intentionally poisoning the well of every other argument you've ever made, and every other argument you will ever make? Or is this an accident occasioned by your profound misunderstanding of human communication?
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Old 12th March 2020, 04:58 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Are you intentionally poisoning the well of every other argument you've ever made, and every other argument you will ever make? Or is this an accident occasioned by your profound misunderstanding of human communication?
Apparently English not first language and apparently lives in Perth, Oz (31°57'S 115°57'E)
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Old 12th March 2020, 05:00 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't understand this post.

Are you not aware of the garage dragon rebuttal?
Yes, he is, as evidenced in prior posts

[quote=theprestige;13018333]Are you not aware of the arguments it rebuts? /quote]Yes, he is, as evidenced in prior posts, but he strawmans arguments never made by anyone.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Do you not understand how the rebuttal works?
Not sure, but it appears so to date.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Are you just taking the piss?
This is not the first rodeo. We could ask what exactly it is that he believes. Past performance indicates we should go fish.

The god of the gaps should really start a business in draft excluders.

See, I could kick you round the room on a topic, and equally, you could kick me round the room on a topic.

Cut and thrust of debate. OK fair enough.

The problem is that psion is somehow attempting to debate no claim at all. I am unsure how a debate can even happen if there is no claim at all.

"I claim nothing"

"OK"

Seems to be as far as anyone can get. Anything further is rejected as somehow invalid.

Now, you and I do not often see eye to eye, but surely you can see the futility of tackling a "no claim at all"?
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