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Tags Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl , astaneh , steel , steel wastage , wastage , wpi , wtc 1 , WTC 2 , wtc 7

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Old 18th January 2010, 03:24 PM   #361
bill smith
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
I agree; the former truthers can be the critical thinkers and experts when they realize knowledge is the key to climbing out of the pit of ignorance where 911 truth is in constant free-fall to record depths of stupidity.
No real Truther ever goes back. There have been a couple of fakes (only one or two in all) who did.
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Old 18th January 2010, 03:30 PM   #362
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That was highly enjoyable. Nicely done.
Just in time to save another delusion believer; wow, you brought all the evidence 911 truth has; nicely done. 0, better take care of this valuable evidence.

8 years and the massive pile of ample evidence for 911 truth is the empty set;

8 years of lies
and failure
personified by guess who
as she posts off topic woo

Last edited by beachnut; 18th January 2010 at 03:37 PM.
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Old 18th January 2010, 03:36 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
No real Truther ever goes back. There have been a couple of fakes (only one or two in all) who did.
Well of course, because if they go back, they're not a real truther.
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Old 18th January 2010, 03:37 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
That was highly enjoyable. Nicely done.
I suppose it doesn't matter, but this is a clear example of why the Truth Movement has failed. You may feel this makes you clever and 'smart', but all it does is demonstrate how the original purpose of this thread is meaningless.

The purpose of the thread was to discuss evidence presented by Dr. Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl. His work was linked to as an example of research that does not support NIST and other commonly held interpretations that planes and fires ultimately led to the collapse of the 3 WTC buildings.

Dr. Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl himself does not believe his evidence supports any such conclusion. It is not clear to the general engineering research community how his work contradicts these generally held ideas. It would therefore be up to you to demonstrate how it does. Otherwise, it is just another piece in what you call the 'official story' that provides reason to accept the planes and fires explanation.

OK, so you're a bunch of clever high school kids who can talk circles about all these guys with diplomas on the wall. Sure thing. But until you answer this point, the 911 Truth Movement will continue to be a bunch of high school kids who post on the net.

Last edited by Scott Sommers; 18th January 2010 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 18th January 2010, 03:44 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by scott.in.taiwan View Post
I suppose it doesn't matter, but this is a clear example of why the Truth Movement has failed. You may feel this makes you clever and 'smart', but all it does is demonstrate how the original purpose of this thread is meaningless.

The purpose of the thread was to discuss evidence presented by Dr. Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl. His work was linked to as an example of research that does not support NIST and other commonly held interpretations that planes and fires ultimately led to the collapse of the 3 WTC buildings.

Dr. Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl himself does not believe his evidence supports any such conclusion. It is not clear to the general engineering research community how his work contradicts these generally held ideas. It would therefore be up to you to demonstrate how it does. Otherwise, it is just another piece in what you call the 'official story' that provides reason to accept the planes and fires explanation.

OK, so you're a bunch of clever high school kids who can talk circles about all these guys with diplomas on the wall. Sure thing. But until you answer this point, the 911 Truth Movement will continue to be a bunch of high school kids who post on the net.
Actually I am highly interested in the work and statements of Dr.A-Asl. And Scott....relax....we are only figments of your imagination.
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Old 18th January 2010, 03:48 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
Well of course, because if they go back, they're not a real truther.
Pretty much yes. It's a one-way thing.

I always had to laugh when I heard so many jref's saying that they were reformed Truthers. lol
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Old 18th January 2010, 03:49 PM   #367
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So did anybody work out what temperature fireproofing melts at as reported by Doctor A-Asl ?
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Old 18th January 2010, 03:54 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Actually I am highly interested in the work and statements of Dr.A-Asl. And Scott....relax....we are only figments of your imagination.
Ironically Bill, the utter stupidity of the current batch of Truther heroes posting now on JREF has made me nostalgic for you. At least there's a logic to your posts. These idiots seem to feel that confusing someone is winning the fight. In fact, confusion seems to be their main 'weapon' in dealing with science.

As you know, I think you are a misguided little one. But I am being forced to grow fond of you. Doesn't it bother you that your 'social movement' seems to be made up of morons and the mentally ill?
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Old 18th January 2010, 03:56 PM   #369
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Remember the Dali 'melting clocks' analogy to the steel at the WTC ? Check this out

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/621352...es_bent_steel/
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Old 18th January 2010, 03:59 PM   #370
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Pretty much yes. It's a one-way thing.

I always had to laugh when I heard so many jref's saying that they were reformed Truthers. lol
Off topic tripe which you have no evidence to support your failed ideas; now making fun of fellow JREF members; real nice 911 delusion spreader. cool

Some truthers are unable to learn and prefer your kind of negative learning and dirt dumb delusion quest. At least one


truther post videos which debunk their delusions... oops


Remember the old days when delusions from Jones were the new smoking gun. Jones used this photo as his evidence of thermite; the truth, it was cut after 911 to help search and rescue by clearing debris.

The loyal truthers are trying but failing to apologize for terrorists.
When will truthers bring evidence for this failed truther thread? Forgot, they have zero evidence; never mind

Last edited by beachnut; 18th January 2010 at 04:05 PM.
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Old 18th January 2010, 04:04 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by scott.in.taiwan View Post
Ironically Bill, the utter stupidity of the current batch of Truther heroes posting now on JREF has made me nostalgic for you. At least there's a logic to your posts. These idiots seem to feel that confusing someone is winning the fight. In fact, confusion seems to be their main 'weapon' in dealing with science.

As you know, I think you are a misguided little one. But I am being forced to grow fond of you. Doesn't it bother you that your 'social movement' seems to be made up of morons and the mentally ill?
Oh I don't know about that. I think they are doing very well. Ask RM. That nostalgia stuff is a thing of the past if you ask me. It's nice to be back back on your christmas card list though. lol
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Last edited by bill smith; 18th January 2010 at 04:11 PM.
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Old 18th January 2010, 04:17 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Oh I don't know about that. I think they are doing very well. Ask RM. That nostalgia stuff is a thing of the past if you ask me. It's nice to be back back on your christmas card list though. lol
Why on Earth would "think they are doing very well."? Nothing they say would convince anyone who doesn't already accept this horse p*ss of an argument. All it would look like was they switched the topic. I can understand you might think it's great they're so indocrinated into this position they don't even have to address what they think is important.

There's still no explanation as to why Dr. Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl's work was originally linked to. Sure, you can believe all you want about rivers of molten steel and thermite, but that's got nothing to do with anything Dr. Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl wrote about. Or it may. I don't know. But certainly the link has not been made and when this point was asked for clarification, the Truther heroes just switched topic.
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Old 18th January 2010, 04:40 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
That was highly enjoyable. Nicely done.
Thanks.

It doesn't take a lot or work to expose the lies.
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Old 18th January 2010, 04:43 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by vinniem View Post
Thanks.

It doesn't take a lot or work to expose the lies.
Awww, isn't that cute, the resident JREF troll has new sidekick.
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Old 18th January 2010, 04:52 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by vinniem View Post
Thanks.

It doesn't take a lot or work to expose the lies.
It was the wriggling I really enjoyed until you finally nailed him down. Spiked as ever was.
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Old 18th January 2010, 05:38 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by vinniem View Post
Thanks.

It doesn't take a lot or work to expose the lies.
Failed to expose much more than ignorance on your part; bringing delusions and the delusion you exposed lies. Cool, you bring back a thread where an engineer thinks 911 truth ideas are poppycock, declare victory; run away and celebrate your continued evidence free victory in your own mind posting in other threads to repeat your insane claim of victory as you post more lies.

Fail, declare victory and move on to fail again.

Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Hilarious! A truther finds a structural engineer who supports "the official story" and asks us to debunk it!

Be happy, your delusions have company
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Old 18th January 2010, 09:00 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
So did anybody work out what temperature fireproofing melts at as reported by Doctor A-Asl ?
Wait, what?

heheheheheheheh!
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Old 18th January 2010, 09:11 PM   #378
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I also often wonder at what temperature fireproofing melts
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Old 18th January 2010, 09:16 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by scott.in.taiwan View Post
I suppose it doesn't matter, but this is a clear example of why the Truth Movement has failed. You may feel this makes you clever and 'smart', but all it does is demonstrate how the original purpose of this thread is meaningless.

The purpose of the thread was to discuss evidence presented by Dr. Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl. His work was linked to as an example of research that does not support NIST and other commonly held interpretations that planes and fires ultimately led to the collapse of the 3 WTC buildings.

Dr. Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl himself does not believe his evidence supports any such conclusion. It is not clear to the general engineering research community how his work contradicts these generally held ideas. It would therefore be up to you to demonstrate how it does. Otherwise, it is just another piece in what you call the 'official story' that provides reason to accept the planes and fires explanation.

OK, so you're a bunch of clever high school kids who can talk circles about all these guys with diplomas on the wall. Sure thing. But until you answer this point, the 911 Truth Movement will continue to be a bunch of high school kids who post on the net.
Scott is right. Too much is made of irrelevent issues and not of the overall picture the evidence - all of the evidence - builds. What matters is that truthers are attempting to use Astaneh-Asl's work to buttress conspiratorial fantasies. This work is being misquoted and misused regardless of whether the truthers themselves believe Astaneh-Asl believes in the conspiracy fantasy (which he has clearly stated he does not).

All that is being obsfucated by the silly obsession on minutiae and argumentative "When did Truthers say ''X''?", and all that does is lead to the irrelevant. What matters is what the proper analysis of Astaneh-Asl's work is. And frankly, conspiracy addicts are not properly understanding, much less properly interpreting his observations and statements.
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Old 18th January 2010, 09:23 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
I also often wonder at what temperature fireproofing melts
Blaze-Shield II specifications

As it is composed primarily of Portland cement, its melting temperature is probably around 1300oC. However, keep in mind that it conducts heat very poorly and, in a typical fire situation, will ablate and only melt at the surface, if at all. It's not just temperature, it takes temperature plus time.
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Old 19th January 2010, 12:14 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus View Post
Scott is right. Too much is made of irrelevent issues and not of the overall picture the evidence - all of the evidence - builds. What matters is that truthers are attempting to use Astaneh-Asl's work to buttress conspiratorial fantasies. This work is being misquoted and misused regardless of whether the truthers themselves believe Astaneh-Asl believes in the conspiracy fantasy (which he has clearly stated he does not).

All that is being obsfucated by the silly obsession on minutiae and argumentative "When did Truthers say ''X''?", and all that does is lead to the irrelevant. What matters is what the proper analysis of Astaneh-Asl's work is. And frankly, conspiracy addicts are not properly understanding, much less properly interpreting his observations and statements.
It's issues like this that make me think JREF is fundamentally a waste of time. There's something wrong with most of the people advocating 911 Truth here and on other forums. Some of them are clearly deranged and in need of medical or legal intervention. The largest group is most likely young boys who can't tell the difference between confusing the issues and winning an argument. As I've said repeatedly here, most of the group that does those 911 protests at Ground Zero is in high school. Almost everyone else is still in college. There's only a handful of them over 25 and they're either making money or in serious need of medication.

The Internet does make it more offensive when someone claims that no one really died on 911. But nothing much is going with these guys anymore. No one listens to them. The facts are all up here and other places to be found by truely interested people. I guess it keeps me thinking when my mind is wandering, but most of what goes on here is equivilant to answering children's questions about why the sky is blue or how a match can burn. It doesn't matter how you explain it, they just can't understand it. It's not a matter of won't; they just can not comprehend what's being said.

That's OK. They're just young and you can't get mad. But answering them over and over again...why bother?

Last edited by Scott Sommers; 19th January 2010 at 02:12 AM.
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Old 19th January 2010, 01:51 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by scott.in.taiwan View Post
But answering them over and over again...why bother?
Quite so. They've decided what they want to believe. Everything else will be handwaved away. Arguing with truthers is futile. Document their lies and move on, I think.
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Old 19th January 2010, 08:18 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
That was highly enjoyable. Nicely done.
Too bad all that verbal virtuosity was wasted defending a meaningless point.

Why not use that rhetorical wizardry to articulate a narrative describing what you truthers believe happened on 9/11? I mean, something more involved than "Inside job!!11!!!"
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Old 19th January 2010, 08:49 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by vinniem View Post
Thanks.

It doesn't take a lot or work to expose the lies.
The funny part is you are right and wrong.

You are right that most truthers don't come out and declare that Dr. A is a truther. Most truthers aren't that stupid. Becaues anyone can find his declarations on how stupid and retarded CD theories are.

Instead you twoofs do the datamined quotes, and then try to use those quotes to support your position. So instead of actually reading for comprehension and understanding that those datamined quotes you take them and twist them to support the bs you are spewing. Dr. A is a great example.

So instead of making the claim outright, you dodge and are weasely about it.

So if you want to use Dr. A's claims, great. Lets use ALL of his claims. Are you up for that?

How about Danny J? Do you want to use ALL of his quotes? I am more than happy to accept ALL of both of their testimonies...shall we?
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Old 19th January 2010, 09:13 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus View Post
Too much is made of irrelevent issues and not of the overall picture the evidence - all of the evidence - builds. What matters is that truthers are attempting to use Astaneh-Asl's work to buttress conspiratorial fantasies.

So even though Dr. Astaneh-Asl's observations appear to corroborate the many eye-witness reports of molten steel at GZ, we should just ignore that because Dr. Astaneh-Asl doesn't believe there was a government conspiracy?

Is that your idea of an "overall picture of evidence"?
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Old 19th January 2010, 09:15 AM   #386
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The key word is "appear." To you, they may "appear" to corroborate the idiotic idea that there were masses of molten steel everywhere... but they don't.

Just talk to the man, he'll set you straight. And quick.
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Old 19th January 2010, 09:28 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by deep View Post
So even though Dr. Astaneh-Asl's observations appear to corroborate the many eye-witness reports of molten steel at GZ, we should just ignore that because Dr. Astaneh-Asl doesn't believe there was a government conspiracy?

Is that your idea of an "overall picture of evidence"?
It is a strange tactic this. They also claim that Bill Mannings' complaints about the destruction of steel don't matter because he personally doesn't believe in a conspiracy theory.

I think the term is "desperation".
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Old 19th January 2010, 09:34 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by vinniem View Post
It is a strange tactic this. They also claim that Bill Mannings' complaints about the destruction of steel don't matter because he personally doesn't believe in a conspiracy theory.

I think the term is "desperation".
Have you spoke to these gentleman yet? Or is your opinion on what they meant greater than theirs?
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Old 19th January 2010, 10:15 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Have you spoke to these gentleman yet? Or is your opinion on what they meant greater than theirs?
I don't think there is much confusion regarding what they meant. What are you having trouble with?
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Old 19th January 2010, 10:18 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by vinniem View Post
I don't think there is much confusion regarding what they meant. What are you having trouble with?
So you understand fully the role of iron-sulphur eutectics in lowering the melting point of steel to temperatures accessible to a normal hydrocarbon fire with unforced draught? If so, could you please explain it to everybody else in the truth movement, because they are in serious confusion about what it meant.

Dave
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Old 19th January 2010, 10:31 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
So you understand fully the role of iron-sulphur eutectics in lowering the melting point of steel to temperatures accessible to a normal hydrocarbon fire with unforced draught? If so, could you please explain it to everybody else in the truth movement, because they are in serious confusion about what it meant.

Dave
It isn't just melting, the Professor said

"The beam, so named because its cross-section looks like a capital I, had clearly endured searing temperatures. Parts of the flat top of the I, once five-eighths of an inch thick, had vaporized."
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Old 19th January 2010, 10:36 AM   #392
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And you are unable to contact him for an explanation because ... ?
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Old 19th January 2010, 10:37 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by vinniem View Post
It isn't just melting, the Professor said

"The beam, so named because its cross-section looks like a capital I, had clearly endured searing temperatures. Parts of the flat top of the I, once five-eighths of an inch thick, had vaporized."
What do you think happened on 9/11?

(Hint: This should be easy to answer.)
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Old 19th January 2010, 10:40 AM   #394
Dave Rogers
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Originally Posted by vinniem View Post
It isn't just melting, the Professor said

"The beam, so named because its cross-section looks like a capital I, had clearly endured searing temperatures. Parts of the flat top of the I, once five-eighths of an inch thick, had vaporized."
Yes, so Astaneh-Asl said something had happened that could not possibly have happened - namely, the reduction of a steel plate in thickness, and the acquisition of a sharp edge by that plate, by vaporisation of the steel. No truther has been able to suggest a plausible mechanism by which such a thing could happen at all, let alone one that suggests an unknown cause of the structural collapses. So what I understand perfectly well is that Astaneh-Asl was not using language as precisely as truthers like to think. Since you're trying to create the illusion of an argument (and no more, because you don't have any idea how to construct an actual argument) based on an over-literal interpretation of a small part of Astaneh-Asl's comments taken out of context, that observation is fatal to your position.

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Old 19th January 2010, 10:53 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
The key word is "appear." To you, they may "appear" to corroborate the idiotic idea that there were masses of molten steel everywhere... but they don't.

Just talk to the man, he'll set you straight. And quick.

I don't understand why you believe it's an "idiotic idea" - there were numerous eye-witness accounts of molten steel:

http://history-bytes.blogspot.com/20...tal-magic.html

..and Dr. A-Asl saw the "melting of girders".

Do you believe this is all explainable (e.g., eutectic mix), or are you suggesting that the eye-witnesses were all mistaken? (or something else entirely?)
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Old 19th January 2010, 10:59 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by deep View Post
So even though Dr. Astaneh-Asl's observations appear to corroborate the many eye-witness reports of molten steel at GZ, we should just ignore that because Dr. Astaneh-Asl doesn't believe there was a government conspiracy?

Is that your idea of an "overall picture of evidence"?
You read what Ryan wrote:
Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
The key word is "appear." To you, they may "appear" to corroborate the idiotic idea that there were masses of molten steel everywhere... but they don't.

Just talk to the man, he'll set you straight. And quick.
And then go do a forum search for the term "eutectic". Yes, my idea of an "overall picture of evidence" includes his observations, as well as Biederman, Sisson, and Barnett's. And ALL of that put together doesn't corroborate the supposed reports of molten steel, it negates it.

This is where you fail, Deep. You did exactly what I said above and in previous posts: You concentrated on only a single aspect of Astaneh-Asl's observation, you failed to include the followups that Worchester did, and you delved into unrelated eyewitness accounts about molten metal to make the charge that molten steel was present. If you had truly understood Astaneh-Asl's observation as well as the Biederman, Sisson, Barnett research afterwards, you would not have made that post.

Then again, had you understood all those men, you wouldn't be defending the conspiracy fantasy. So I guess this is no surprise you try to make that argument.

-------

For others who are unfamiliar with the background: Astahen-Asl had made a few observations about the WTC steel debris, some of which conspiracy peddlers latch on to as a supposed anomaly indicating a collapse narrative at odds with the one NIST published. You can bet that where someone's talking about molten steel, they're leading to thermite and intentional destruction of the Twin Towers. Problem is, they're wrong. They correctly cite Astaneh-Asl's observation about "vaporized" steel, but they fail to follow up and understand that:
  1. He made that observation without studying the actual nature of the "vaporization", given that he observed it during the cleanup of Ground Zero, and could not give much more than a visual description of what he saw. And,
  2. That other researchers had looked into it at a later dat - the professors Biederman, Sisson, and Barnett that I mentioned above - and discovered that the "vaporized" steel was in reality eroded via a chemical sulfidation attack that resulted in the formation of a liquid species that could have either evaporated or - more likely - simply run off(any chemists or metallurgists here can give the proper answer). Astaneh-Asl's observation was the preliminary one, and the Worchester investigation was the deeper one. But you never, ever hear a truther bring that one up, because it lops off the direction he wants you to go in.
In short, Deep here has - once again; yes, this isn't the first time he's tried this - misrepresented the findings as well as the significance that Dr. Astaneh-Asl produced. This is why I encourage others to do a search for his name, as well as others for the words "eutectic", "Worchester", "Sisson", and so on. This charge has been disproven already; none of Astaneh-Asl's observations lead to molten steel (something that should be obvious if truthers realize there's a discrepancy between the supposed flows of molten metal some first responders claim to have seen and the less-than-one-inch erosion of the column Astaneh-Asl reported).

The irony here is that Deep is trying to nail me for my statement about the "overall picture", yet it is he who's withholding crucial elements of the picture, those elements leading away from conspiratorial fantasies. Go figure. Typical truther distortion.
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Old 19th January 2010, 11:01 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by vinniem View Post
It isn't just melting, the Professor said

"The beam, so named because its cross-section looks like a capital I, had clearly endured searing temperatures. Parts of the flat top of the I, once five-eighths of an inch thick, had vaporized."
Oh, not this again! See above. Astaneh-Asl made an initial observation, but subsequent resesarch shows that this was not vaporization, but sulfidation!

You, too, are not comprehending the overall picture. Go do a search for "eutectic" in this forum; you need to do this before you rehash ground that's been covered ad-nauseum already.
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Old 19th January 2010, 11:21 AM   #398
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Who cares whether Dr. A-Asl is a Truther or not. Personally I only care what he is documented as having said, not whether he is an active supporter of 9/11 Truth or not.
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Old 19th January 2010, 11:30 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by deep View Post
I don't understand why you believe it's an "idiotic idea" - there were numerous eye-witness accounts of molten steel:

http://history-bytes.blogspot.com/20...tal-magic.html

..and Dr. A-Asl saw the "melting of girders".

Do you believe this is all explainable (e.g., eutectic mix), or are you suggesting that the eye-witnesses were all mistaken? (or something else entirely?)
With the single exception of Dr. A, all the people you refer to make statements that are second-hand reports. Nobody saw molten steel first hand.

There is no physical evidence for molten steel on the pile.

There is no science that would show how the temperatures needed to maintain molten steel were created and maintained for weeks.

Given that there is no evidence and no science, we can dismiss the second-hand stories as hyperbole. We can also explain Dr. A's statement as a moment of exaggeration.
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Old 19th January 2010, 11:34 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by BigAl View Post
With the single exception of Dr. A, all the people you refer to make statements that are second-hand reports. Nobody saw molten steel first hand.

There is no physical evidence for molten steel on the pile.

There is no science that would show how the temperatures needed to maintain molten steel were created and maintained for weeks.

Given that there is no evidence and no science, we can dismiss the second-hand stories as hyperbole. We can also explain Dr. A's statement as a moment of exaggeration.
And based on other comments by Dr. A, he likes to exaggerate.
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