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Tags Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl , astaneh , steel , steel wastage , wastage , wpi , wtc 1 , WTC 2 , wtc 7

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Old 25th February 2008, 05:36 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by VespaGuy View Post
RedIbis -

Could you please explain what needs to be debunked and why?
That is a good question. Ibis?
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 25th February 2008, 05:42 PM   #82
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Quote:
These observations indicate that the World Trade Center steel was subjected to very high temperatures. Yet, while postulating that the towers collapsed due to fire (and without the use of explosives), even Thomas Eagar--an engineering professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology--admitted, "The temperature of the fire at the WTC was not unusual, and it was most definitely not capable of melting steel." [12] One must conclude that the phenomena observed by Astaneh-Asl are therefore highly suspicious.
http://911blogger.com/node/14062

This is very much the same conclusion Jones came to when analyzing the Lee report.

Again, STEEL MELTED during the WTC event.

Can anyone explain why? And, wouldn't this support eyewitness accounts of flowing molten steel?

No one has touched this yet. Much like the Lee report of melting iron.
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Old 25th February 2008, 05:42 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
Unless you address my questions in this thread, about this thread, you are temporarily on ignore for this thread because you just can't seem to stay on topic.
Did you see post #67 Sizzler?

Quote:
The buildings simply redistributed their loads onto the intact columns when the airplanes hit. But as the fires burned, the floor joists were the first elements of the buildings' structures to fail. Their failure pulled the buildings' exterior columns inward, initiating complete collapse of the structures.

"If you didn't have the fires you would be fine,'' Astaneh-asl said.
How is this different than what NIST concludes?
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Old 25th February 2008, 05:44 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by CHF View Post
I can't decide if this is hilarious or sad.
IMHO, it's hilarious.
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Old 25th February 2008, 05:47 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Did you see post #67 Sizzler?


How is this different than what NIST concludes?
Quote:
The buildings simply redistributed their loads onto the intact columns when the airplanes hit. But as the fires burned, the floor joists were the first elements of the buildings' structures to fail. Their failure pulled the buildings' exterior columns inward, initiating complete collapse of the structures.
and again..

Quote:
“When the fires started, they heated up the steel. In my opinion, the truss joists collapsed first, leaving the exterior columns of probably two floors in the impact area with no bracing but still under gravity load from the floors above. As the columns heated up and reached temperatures of nearly 1,000F, their strength was reduced to less than half the design strength and they started to buckle.
Part in bold
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Old 25th February 2008, 06:11 PM   #86
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Sizzler:
Why don't you contact the man yourself if you have questions about his work? Wouldn't that be the smart thing for someone that wants to know the truth to do?
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Old 25th February 2008, 06:13 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
Well why don't you write a journal article and have it published.
Because someone beat him to it.

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM...rman-0112.html

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Old 25th February 2008, 06:16 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
http://911blogger.com/node/14062

This is very much the same conclusion Jones came to when analyzing the Lee report.

Again, STEEL MELTED during the WTC event.

Can anyone explain why? And, wouldn't this support eyewitness accounts of flowing molten steel?

No one has touched this yet. Much like the Lee report of melting iron.
Please provide evidence that the molten metal observed by witnesses was indeed steel and not another alloy such as aluminum or some sort of composite.
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 25th February 2008, 06:20 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
Please provide evidence that the molten metal observed by witnesses was indeed steel and not another alloy such as aluminum or some sort of composite.
But we know for sure steel melted now so moot point.

Last edited by JHarrow; 25th February 2008 at 06:22 PM.
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Old 25th February 2008, 06:27 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by JHarrow View Post
But we know for sure steel melted now so moot point.
but how do we know for sure it was steel and not some other alloy or composite?
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Old 25th February 2008, 06:27 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by JHarrow View Post
But we know for sure steel melted now so moot point.
We know for sure that a steel-sulphur eutectic melted. There's a difference.

Dave
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Old 25th February 2008, 06:33 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by JHarrow View Post
But we know for sure steel melted now so moot point.
Direct me to the evidence that proves the exact alloy steel melted in its pure form.
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 25th February 2008, 06:38 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Because someone beat him to it.

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM...rman-0112.html

Dave
That's funny. And the source of sulfur?

Quote:
While the exact location of this beam could not be determined, the unexpected erosion of the steel found in this beam warranted a study of microstructural changes that occurred in this steel. Examination of other sections in this beam is underway.
In other words, it is an anomaly.

Has the source been determined? According to Dr. Greening, more tests need to be done to confirm a source.
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Old 25th February 2008, 06:40 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
IMHO, it's hilarious.
Put me down for hilarious.

Isn't a good laugh the whole reason most sane people come to the CT section of this forum?
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Old 25th February 2008, 06:40 PM   #95
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Lee report states STEEL MELTED!!!!

Link in OP reports STEEL MELTED!!!!!!!

DEAL WITH IT!!
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Old 25th February 2008, 06:43 PM   #96
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What did they have to say about it?
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Last edited by DGM; 25th February 2008 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 25th February 2008, 06:46 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
What did they have to say about it?
They said steel melted. They said WTC event caused such.
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Old 25th February 2008, 06:47 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
In other words, it is an anomaly.
Congratulations, you have identified an anomaly in the generally accepted account of 9-11. The fact that other experts before you have identified this as an anomaly worthy of investigation should not detract from your extraordinary achievement of being able to recognise this when you read the account in which the anomaly is described.

Now, how precisely does this anomaly cast any doubt whatsoever on the generally accepted understanding that the 9-11 attacks were carried out by radical Islamic terrorists, that the WTC 1 and 2 collapses were caused by impact and fire damage, that the WTC7 collapse was caused by debris and fire damage, and that after the collapse of all three buildings the debris experienced high temperatures for several weeks in a chemical environment that is subject to considerable uncertainty?

You see, what you have found here is a minor interesting phenomenon. There is no sensible reason to believe it suggests 9-11 was an inside job. No reasonable mechanism has been suggested by which sulphidation of steel could result from the use of thermite as a demolition agent, for which there is in turn no reasonable mechanism suggested. In contrast, a perfectly reasonable mechanism has been suggested, although not yet proven, by which sulphidation could have occurred in the debris pile.

This belongs in a chemistry forum, not a conspiracy theories forum.

Dave
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Old 25th February 2008, 06:49 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
Lee report states STEEL MELTED!!!!

Link in OP reports STEEL MELTED!!!!!!!

DEAL WITH IT!!
They can't handle it. Their brains shut down when evidence points to their safe little fantasy not being true.
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Old 25th February 2008, 06:50 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
They said steel melted. They said WTC event caused such.
So what? I don't hear them preaching inside job do you?
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Old 25th February 2008, 06:52 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by JHarrow View Post
They can't handle it. Their brains shut down when evidence points to their safe little fantasy not being true.
Handle what? This is just another article that you didn't read. They don't support your twisted view.
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Old 25th February 2008, 06:52 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
So what? I don't hear them preaching inside job do you?
I wonder which logical fallacy that is. Their results can't be true because they personally aren't preaching an inside job.
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Old 25th February 2008, 06:56 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by JHarrow View Post
I wonder which logical fallacy that is. Their results can't be true because they personally aren't preaching an inside job.
Who said they their results were wrong? Do you know what they were?
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Old 25th February 2008, 06:56 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by JHarrow View Post
They can't handle it. Their brains shut down when evidence points to their safe little fantasy not being true.
Translation = I'm too afraid to contact Dr. Astaneh-Asl myself.
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Old 25th February 2008, 06:57 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
Lee report states STEEL MELTED!!!!

Link in OP reports STEEL MELTED!!!!!!!

DEAL WITH IT!!
sorry, anecdotal evidence from someone i wouldnt expect to be able to tell steel from any other metal doesnt really cut it for me

must be nice to be able to accept anything as gospel truth is it agrees with what you want to believe though
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Old 25th February 2008, 06:58 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by JHarrow View Post
I wonder which logical fallacy that is. Their results can't be true because they personally aren't preaching an inside job.
no, the point is they dont seem to think theres anything out of the ordinary, so why do you? and why do you cite them?
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Old 25th February 2008, 07:00 PM   #107
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Just so I'm clear.

Red quotes an engineer and wants his quote debunked.
JHarrow chimes in with basically, yeah, debunk it
Sizzler enters another thread just asking questions.
Turns out the engineer contributed to the NIST report.
Turns out the engineer supports the NIST report.
JHarrow, doing his best zensmack and LastChild impression starts his nonsensical one liners.
Sizzler keeps asking questions
Red disappears

Seriously, why does this continue, isn't there a mercy rule, a 10 run rule, someone with a net to stop this?
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Old 25th February 2008, 07:02 PM   #108
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Quote:
I wonder which logical fallacy that is. Their results can't be true because they personally aren't preaching an inside job.
He didn't say that.
He said that the pepople who did this haven't concluded it was a anything other than planes hitting a building. He didn't say what these people said was invalid because they didn't say it was an inside job.

He used bad terminology simplified for people to understand easier.

They also said
Quote:
“When the fires started, they heated up the steel. In my opinion, the truss joists collapsed first, leaving the exterior columns of probably two floors in the impact area with no bracing but still under gravity load from the floors above. As the columns heated up and reached temperatures of nearly 1,000F, their strength was reduced to less than half the design strength and they started to buckle. When the columns buckled, the top portion of the building, losing its supports, was pulled down by gravity and dropping on the floors below, pancaking the floors one after another and leading to progressive collapse in an almost perfect vertical direction of the pull of gravity force.”
When he said melt he was refering to this.

Its like if you have a block of solid chocolate...and you heat it up. There is a point where it moved around easily and is plastic, but not a liquid yet... people would still say it had melted at that point... not that is was plastic. This is people allpying the wrong word in the wrong context, but everyone understanding what was meant.
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Old 25th February 2008, 07:02 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by JHarrow View Post
I wonder which logical fallacy that is. Their results can't be true because they personally aren't preaching an inside job.
The results can certainly be true, but it's how those results affect the big picture that really matter.

If this phenomenon did occur, what caused it, and how does that cause, if at all, alter any conclusions about the collapse of the towers?

Of course, none of that interests CTers. You'd just rather yell "Melted steel!" and claim victory.

Unfortunately for you, no one else sees it that way (most notable of all, the experts reporting these results), or is all that concerned with what you think (most notable of all, every single mainstream media outlet and law enforcement agency on the planet).

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Old 25th February 2008, 07:03 PM   #110
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This thread is absolute proof that 9/11 "truthers" don't want the truth at all, but are only intrested in academic exercises in the art of debate.

Why continue to guess at what Dr. Astaneh-Asl's true conclusions are regarding the WTC?

JUST ASK HIM!
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Old 25th February 2008, 07:05 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by JHarrow View Post
I wonder which logical fallacy that is. Their results can't be true because they personally aren't preaching an inside job.
The logical fallacy that anyone who isn't preaching an inside job must be in error is called the non sequitur, and is common among conspiracy theorists. The misrepresentation of results which give no proof of an inside job in order to give the impression that they do give such proof is called the strawman fallacy, and is also common among conspiracy theorists, particularly in this specific form.

Hope this helps

Dave
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Old 25th February 2008, 07:10 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
Opinion



argumentum ad populum



What evidence? On the whole the physical evidence is extremely limited. As a way to redirect to the topic, even NIST admitted it did not observe a single core column sample that exceeded 250C.



Just the reverse of the fallacy you committed above. Just because a position is held by the minority, doesn't make it wrong.



The challenge of this thread is to debunk his personal observations at the WTC.

I know that I'm being unfair, and I understand how terribly inconvenient reality is for your fantasy, but there is that tiny matter of Osama bin Laden explaining his role in the attacks in several videos. If only those jihadists weren't so stubbornly proud of their victory, you conspiracy liars could make some headway.
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Old 25th February 2008, 07:15 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by pomeroo View Post
I know that I'm being unfair, and I understand how terribly inconvenient reality is for your fantasy, but there is that tiny matter of Osama bin Laden explaining his role in the attacks in several videos. If only those jihadists weren't so stubbornly proud of their victory, you conspiracy liars could make some headway.
The Jihadists are proud. But the CIA who puppeteer them are even prouder.
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Old 25th February 2008, 07:16 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by pomeroo View Post
I know that I'm being unfair, and I understand how terribly inconvenient reality is for your fantasy, but there is that tiny matter of Osama bin Laden explaining his role in the attacks in several videos. If only those jihadists weren't so stubbornly proud of their victory, you conspiracy liars could make some headway.
Bin Laden was an actor, a CIA plant, etc.

9-11 TROOF 4-LIFE!!4four!!

Originally Posted by JHarrow View Post
The Jihadists are proud. But the CIA who puppeteer them are even prouder.
I couldn't have planned that better if I tried.

Along comes TROOFER and proves everything we accuse them of undeniably correct.

Thanks, JHarrow! You're pwning yourselves!
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Old 25th February 2008, 07:18 PM   #115
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Please provide evidence that the CIA are invovled with Al Quaeda. If you can't, then retract your claim, or be called, yet again, a liar.
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Old 25th February 2008, 07:18 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Sizzler:
Why don't you contact the man yourself if you have questions about his work? Wouldn't that be the smart thing for someone that wants to know the truth to do?
What timing! I was just wondering the same about this thread.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=136

For a man who alledgedly seeks the truth, he sure doesn't follow through when experts email addys are presented to him on a molten steel plate...
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Old 25th February 2008, 07:22 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
So what? I don't hear them preaching inside job do you?
You are right. They aren't preaching inside job, just the opposite.

However their conclusions support the fact that steel melted in the WTC event. Melting steel supports the claim of foil play made by others that are preaching inside job.

It seems the tables have turned, and the official hypothesis is now starting to debunk itself. (cue beachnut to jump in on this)
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Old 25th February 2008, 07:39 PM   #118
Quad4_72
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Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
You are right. They aren't preaching inside job, just the opposite.

However their conclusions support the fact that steel melted in the WTC event. Melting steel supports the claim of foil play made by others that are preaching inside job.

It seems the tables have turned, and the official hypothesis is now starting to debunk itself. (cue beachnut to jump in on this)
Wrong again. There is only speculation that STEEL melted, and not some other alloy. Please direct me to the conclusive tests that were done that indicate that steel melted in its pure form.

Oh and when are you gonna post in that thread that you asked to be opened for you?
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 25th February 2008, 07:44 PM   #119
R.Mackey
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I'm late to the party...

Would I be incorrect in summarizing this thread as follows:
  • Truth Movement types just now find out about Dr. Astaneh-Asl
  • Truth Movement decides his position sounds contraoversial and asks us to "Debunk" it
  • Truth Movement has no idea what the NIST report actually contains
  • Truth Movement does not understand the subtle differences bewteen Dr. Astaneh-Asl and NIST
  • JREF posters inform Truth Movement of this
  • Truth Movement still doesn't get it

Again, I apologize if I've got that wrong.

There's nothing to debunk. His position is dissenting but is also reasonable. It's not too far removed from other dissenting opinions from Purdue, Arup, and U Edinburgh, for instance. We know this (well, I know this) because I've actually read all those positions. I've also written about it and highlighted the differences.

What's the problem here?

Last edited by R.Mackey; 25th February 2008 at 07:46 PM.
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Old 25th February 2008, 07:45 PM   #120
Sizzler
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
Wrong again. There is only speculation that STEEL melted, and not some other alloy. Please direct me to the conclusive tests that were done that indicate that steel melted in its pure form.
Lee Report reports melted steel.

Link in OP reports melted steel.
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