IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl , astaneh , steel , steel wastage , wastage , wpi , wtc 1 , WTC 2 , wtc 7

Reply
Old 25th February 2008, 09:35 PM   #161
cisco
Muse
 
cisco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 709
Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
No. I cannot say that I 100% know the twoofy twoof. You would have done better to leave this alone.

Do you think the official story is falsifiable?

If you don't answer this question, I will do something I've never done and obnoxiously hound you to answer it, as you have done to me.
Why would I avoid a simple question? I'm not a troothbot.

First of all, there is no "official story." The government did not tell us what happened. Thousands of people witnessed and were involved in the events. There is a popular or public account.

And yes, the public account is absolutely falsifiable.

Can you falsify it? If so I'll buy plane tickets for you, myself, and johnny karate and we'll all go shout from bullhorns at ground zero.
__________________
"Another super dumb post! How can you be so consistently wrong with the real dumb posts? BUSTED, your posts are all totally wrong. The dumbest collection of stupid posts ever, by you. How are you so good at getting every single fact wrong." - beachnut

"If you torture data sufficiently, it will confess to almost anything." - Fred Menger
cisco is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2008, 09:38 PM   #162
coops
Scholar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 58
Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
MACKEY MUST BE DRUNK:

In an interview about the "Collapse of Overpass in California Becomes Lesson in Construction";
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/scien...ass_05-10.html


I WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mackey is drunk.
Sizzler, if your so confident in your interpretation of what Hassan Astaneh believes why dont you simply email him and get him to confirm your interpretation?

I'm sure if you posted an email direct from the source to back you then you would be able to shut up a lot of your opposition.

Your current method of repeating yourself with bigger and bigger font sizes doesnt seem to be convincing anyone. maybe its time to try something completely different.
coops is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2008, 09:39 PM   #163
Sizzler
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,562
Originally Posted by cisco View Post
Sizzler are the clocks in the Dali painting melting? Are they molten?
He doesn't use that analogy to describe the girders.

He explicitly uses the word, melting, and even clears this up with the bridge collapse, stating that the bridge girders did not melt, they only lost strength.

It isn;t the same.
Sizzler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2008, 09:39 PM   #164
D'rok
Free Barbarian on The Land
 
D'rok's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,399
If I may inject on behalf of the lurker population...

This isn't even entertaining anymore. Truthers, you're starting to just phone it in. We're witnessing futility on the scale of the Washington Generals here. Boring. Can't someone up their game? For god's sake, won't somebody think of the lurkers!
__________________
"War exists within the continuum of politics, in which play is continuous, and no outcome is final, save for a global thermonuclear war, which might be." - Darth Rotor

"Life, like a Saturday afternoon, finds its ruination in purpose." - MdC

Last edited by D'rok; 25th February 2008 at 09:40 PM.
D'rok is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2008, 09:41 PM   #165
Sizzler
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,562
Originally Posted by coops View Post
Sizzler, if your so confident in your interpretation of what Hassan Astaneh believes why dont you simply email him and get him to confirm your interpretation?

I'm sure if you posted an email direct from the source to back you then you would be able to shut up a lot of your opposition.

Your current method of repeating yourself with bigger and bigger font sizes doesnt seem to be convincing anyone. maybe its time to try something completely different.
Yes thanks for the idea. These people are mental.
Sizzler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2008, 09:44 PM   #166
ElMondoHummus
0.25 short of being half-witted
 
ElMondoHummus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Somewhere north of the South Pole
Posts: 12,282
Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
I've proven that at least one engineer saw melted girders, MADE OF STEEL.

That's enough for now.
You have post collapse temperatures in the rubble pile of up to 2,800 degrees F, and you also have the eutectic reactions, which allows steel not exposed to temperatures that high to show signs of melting. What does your assertion of Astaneh-Asl's report end up showing? That eutetic reactions occurred, and that rubble pile temperatures were indeed high? Or are you trying to purport something else?

Remember, in the article you cite, Dr. Astaneh-Asl did not attribute his sighting of melting on girders to pre-collapse events. He didn't attribute the melting of WTC girders to anything either pre- or post-collapse; he only mentioned them in passing while discussing softened steel in the California bridge collapse event. There is nothing about his statement that excludes either the eutectic reactions Mackey is discussing, or possible melting from the rubble piles that I have put forth. Not only that, as they are the logical reasons for the observations Dr. Astaneh-Asl made, the most he's doing is supporting the presence of both those reactions and the high post-collapse rubble temperatures.

So, what again does his statement about girders prove?
__________________
"AND ZEPPELINS!!! We haven't even begun to talk about Zeppelins yet! Marauding inflatable Teutonic johnsons waggling their way across the sky! Indecent and flammable all at once."
ElMondoHummus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2008, 09:47 PM   #167
Cl1mh4224rd
Philosopher
 
Cl1mh4224rd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,778
Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
I've proven that at least one engineer saw melted girders, MADE OF STEEL.

That's enough for now.

So... How did he identify them as steel girders if they were completely melted?

I suspect his definition of "melted" in this context is not the same as the one you're applying. Perhaps you should clarify for yourself that you're interpreting his words correctly before declaring even a hollow victory.

Last edited by Cl1mh4224rd; 25th February 2008 at 09:48 PM.
Cl1mh4224rd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2008, 09:47 PM   #168
cisco
Muse
 
cisco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 709
Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
He doesn't use that analogy to describe the girders.

He explicitly uses the word, melting, and even clears this up with the bridge collapse, stating that the bridge girders did not melt, they only lost strength.

It isn;t the same.
Huh? What's this then?

Quote:
"He noted the way steel from the WTC had bent at several connection points that had joined the floors to the vertical columns. He described the connections as being smoothly warped, saying, "If you remember the Salvador Dali paintings with the clocks that are kind of melted--it's kind of like that."
__________________
"Another super dumb post! How can you be so consistently wrong with the real dumb posts? BUSTED, your posts are all totally wrong. The dumbest collection of stupid posts ever, by you. How are you so good at getting every single fact wrong." - beachnut

"If you torture data sufficiently, it will confess to almost anything." - Fred Menger
cisco is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2008, 09:51 PM   #169
coops
Scholar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 58
Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
Yes thanks for the idea. These people are mental.
not a problem.

You've already been provided with his email address and i'm sure you can chase up a contact phone number without too much trouble.

Please keep us in the loop with your exchanges with Hassan so that your not accused of dodging the issue.

As an aside, if when you contact Hassan he tells you that he didnt mean what you think he means what will your response be?
coops is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2008, 09:52 PM   #170
Sizzler
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,562
Originally Posted by coops View Post
not a problem.

You've already been provided with his email address and i'm sure you can chase up a contact phone number without too much trouble.

Please keep us in the loop with your exchanges with Hassan so that your not accused of dodging the issue.

As an aside, if when you contact Hassan he tells you that he didnt mean what you think he means what will your response be?
I will reply honestly. Where was his e-mail provided?
Sizzler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2008, 09:54 PM   #171
Cl1mh4224rd
Philosopher
 
Cl1mh4224rd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,778
Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
I will reply honestly. Where was his e-mail provided?

DURR! Read the thread! DURR!

ETA: It was posted 2 or 3 times in this thread. Try paying attention. Seriously.

Last edited by Cl1mh4224rd; 25th February 2008 at 09:56 PM.
Cl1mh4224rd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2008, 09:55 PM   #172
Sizzler
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,562
Originally Posted by cisco View Post
Huh? What's this then?
"He noted the way steel from the WTC had bent at several connection points that had joined the floors to the vertical columns. He described the connections as being smoothly warped, saying, "If you remember the Salvador Dali paintings with the clocks that are kind of melted--it's kind of like that."

Yup, misread that quote. Will be e-mailing with all these questions. Will get back to you soon.
Sizzler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2008, 09:58 PM   #173
~enigma~
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,923
Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
I will reply honestly. Where was his e-mail provided?
Post #150 and here...
Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
I wouldn't have the slightest idea...


astaneh@ce.berkeley.edu





Last edited by ~enigma~; 25th February 2008 at 09:58 PM.
~enigma~ is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2008, 09:59 PM   #174
cisco
Muse
 
cisco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 709
Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
Yup, misread that quote.
So do you see the potential difference now between melting and melted/molten?
__________________
"Another super dumb post! How can you be so consistently wrong with the real dumb posts? BUSTED, your posts are all totally wrong. The dumbest collection of stupid posts ever, by you. How are you so good at getting every single fact wrong." - beachnut

"If you torture data sufficiently, it will confess to almost anything." - Fred Menger
cisco is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2008, 10:00 PM   #175
Sizzler
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,562
Originally Posted by cisco View Post
So do you see the potential difference now between melting and melted/molten?
Yup, I'm e-mailing him right now.
Sizzler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2008, 10:01 PM   #176
cisco
Muse
 
cisco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 709
Originally Posted by cisco View Post
So do you see the potential difference now between melting and melted/molten?
ETA: or "kind of melted"
__________________
"Another super dumb post! How can you be so consistently wrong with the real dumb posts? BUSTED, your posts are all totally wrong. The dumbest collection of stupid posts ever, by you. How are you so good at getting every single fact wrong." - beachnut

"If you torture data sufficiently, it will confess to almost anything." - Fred Menger
cisco is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2008, 10:01 PM   #177
R.Mackey
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 7,854
In Vino Veritas

Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
MACKEY MUST BE DRUNK:

In an interview about the "Collapse of Overpass in California Becomes Lesson in Construction";
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/scien...ass_05-10.html


I WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mackey is drunk.
Well, you're half right.

I'm back, and well on my way to being drunk. I do this for two reasons -- drinking, I mean:

1. The depth of confirmation bias displayed by the Truth Movement makes my head hurt, and alcohol numbs the pain.
Seriously. "Steel melted!" you crow. Not based on a paper, not based on a formal presentation, just a few comments. That's what you've got. You don't know how much steel, where, or why, but you don't care. The only reason you care is because someone (us) said otherwise. Epic Pwnage is in your grasp!

Except you've forgotten that there's an entire wing of the Truth Movement dedicated to repeating the mantra that "NIST recovered no steel that exceeded 250oC!!" Well, that was always false, but I don't have to explain why anymore. You've done it for me! So the next time Kevin Ryan or Tony Szamboti repeats that tired refrain, allow me to refer them to you. Congratulations, you now agree with us.

See, what makes no sense is that you folks come to us arguing both sides of the same coin. "NIST's steel was colder than NIST said." And now "NIST's steel was hotter that NIST said." A normal, rational person might take some time to resolve these contradictory positions before squawking about them, but not you guys!

But I forgive you. I know why you do it -- you come to us with whatever confusions you have because you know we've got the answers. There's no point bringing this up to Steven Jones or Judy Wood or what have you, and you know it. They'll give you some doubletalk and try to accomodate both positions, and you'll learn nothing. We won't, and we don't. It's just too bad you seem locked in a learning cycle forever.

All of this makes me sad. Which brings me to the other reason for inebriation, which is to prove a point:
2. Even to a drunken man, your ideas make no sense.
Earlier tonight, I asked you to answer where Dr. Astaneh-Asl got his steel from. I was going to lead you gradually to an understanding, but it's taking too long and you won't enjoy it anyway, so I'll just say it. He got his steel by setting up shop near the steel recyclers. At the end of the salvage process. There's advantages to doing this, but you need to keep in mind that any steel he got was damaged while standing, damaged as the Pile burned, and subjected to the full chaos of recovery operations. There's no way whatsoever for Dr. Astaneh-Asl to disambiguate between "melting" suffered while the building stood, and "melting" afterwards. He didn't get to see it in place.

But that's not where I wanted to lead you. The real question, the coup de grace, is this: "What happened to the steel after Dr. Astaneh-Asl handled it?" He's talking about all this "melted" and "vaporized" steel -- where is it? Can we see it?

Indeed we can. Class, please open your books to NCSTAR1-3.

The steel that you're talking about was turned over to NIST, where it was examined in detail, and reported on. With pictures. Now, Dr. Astaneh-Asl is a sharp guy, and we can learn a lot from him, but he's not a metallurgist, and he didn't examine the steel thoroughly.

What you're working from are his initial comments. NIST did more, and found that, well, what do you know, it didn't melt after all. Or vaporize. Snicker.

NIST instead does report on "melting," i.e. eutectic action, concluding it happened in the Pile fire and is not relevant in terms of understanding the collapses. Take a look for yourself. We already know this happens, because of Dr. Barnett and Dr. Biederman's work. No mysteries here except to the uneducated and misinformed. Your team.

The only way for your ideas to make sense is if Dr. Astaneh-Asl's steel was different from the NIST steel. It isn't so. He didn't smuggle it home in a suitcase. Nor did NIST decide, in its evil power, to hide some of it so it could spin some alternate story, daring Dr. Astaneh-Asl to call them on it. Why would they? The temperatures involved in melting are actually not implausible, nor incompatible with the core NIST hypothesis. Vaporizing, well yeah, that's a poser, but that doesn't work for anybody's theory, except the space-beamers and nuke-huggers...

Did this happen? Did NIST bury evidence? Why not ask him? Check this out, all you have to do is get Dr. Astaneh-Asl to say "those fiends! They stole the evidence! I had it in my hands!!" Ask him.

He won't. You know how I know? Because he's read NIST cover to cover, like me, and he's been very critical of it. But he's never said that. Dr. Greening presented some of Dr. Astaneh-Asl's objections, and they bear some examination. He believes, possibly, the NIST Report was structured to deemphasize design flaws in the original structure. This could be true.

"Melting" and vaporizing steel, not true.
If even a drunken man can follow this path of reasoning, you should have no trouble with it at all. Impress me.
R.Mackey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2008, 10:06 PM   #178
ElMondoHummus
0.25 short of being half-witted
 
ElMondoHummus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Somewhere north of the South Pole
Posts: 12,282
There you go. Whatever Dr. Astaneh-Asl observed was a result of events that occured after the collapse.

So, in summary, what is the significance of the good Doctor's observations again?

ETA: Whoops, Mackey, I wasn't aiming that at you.

ETA another thing: Jesus, Mackey, it's a weeknight. You're gettin' hammered?
__________________
"AND ZEPPELINS!!! We haven't even begun to talk about Zeppelins yet! Marauding inflatable Teutonic johnsons waggling their way across the sky! Indecent and flammable all at once."

Last edited by ElMondoHummus; 25th February 2008 at 10:08 PM. Reason: Clarification
ElMondoHummus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2008, 10:17 PM   #179
Sizzler
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,562
e-mail sent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sizzler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2008, 10:18 PM   #180
Newtons Bit
Penultimate Amazing
 
Newtons Bit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 10,049
Anyone have any pictures of the wide-flange that is accused of being partially melted here? It sounds to me like it could have been just a coped flange.
__________________
"Structural Engineering is the art of molding materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyze so as to understand forces we cannot really assess in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our own ignorance." James E Amrhein
Newtons Bit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2008, 10:21 PM   #181
R.Mackey
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 7,854
Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus View Post
There you go. Whatever Dr. Astaneh-Asl observed was a result of events that occured after the collapse.

So, in summary, what is the significance of the good Doctor's observations again?

ETA: Whoops, Mackey, I wasn't aiming that at you.

ETA another thing: Jesus, Mackey, it's a weeknight. You're gettin' hammered?
Large liver, high tolerance. For alcohol, that is, not doubletalk. I'll be straight by midnight.
R.Mackey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2008, 10:23 PM   #182
Minadin
Master Poster
 
Minadin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 2,469
Originally Posted by contra View Post
He didn't say that.
He said that the pepople who did this haven't concluded it was a anything other than planes hitting a building. He didn't say what these people said was invalid because they didn't say it was an inside job.

He used bad terminology simplified for people to understand easier.

They also said


When he said melt he was refering to this.

Its like if you have a block of solid chocolate...and you heat it up. There is a point where it moved around easily and is plastic, but not a liquid yet... people would still say it had melted at that point... not that is was plastic. This is people allpying the wrong word in the wrong context, but everyone understanding what was meant.
That's what I said. He's using simplified terms to explain things to laypeople.
Minadin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2008, 10:24 PM   #183
Sizzler
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,562


This is from 911blogger.
Sizzler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2008, 10:26 PM   #184
coops
Scholar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 58
Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
e-mail sent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
can you post a copy of the email you sent Sizzler?
coops is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2008, 10:28 PM   #185
Mobyseven
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,671
Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
Large liver, high tolerance. For alcohol, that is, not doubletalk. I'll be straight by midnight.
I was going to post in this thread about how damn pointless all this was (it's gotten to the point where the CTers are asking us to debunk material that we mostly agree with, ferredsake!), but I figure now I should also thank R.Mackey for his drunken explanation post. More coherent than a sober truther, and very informative: R.Mackey.

Seriously though, nice pwnage.
Mobyseven is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2008, 10:29 PM   #186
Newtons Bit
Penultimate Amazing
 
Newtons Bit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 10,049
Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
And... can you point out the melty stuff please?
__________________
"Structural Engineering is the art of molding materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyze so as to understand forces we cannot really assess in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our own ignorance." James E Amrhein
Newtons Bit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2008, 10:32 PM   #187
R.Mackey
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 7,854
Originally Posted by Mobyseven View Post
I was going to post in this thread about how damn pointless all this was (it's gotten to the point where the CTers are asking us to debunk material that we mostly agree with, ferredsake!), but I figure now I should also thank R.Mackey for his drunken explanation post. More coherent than a sober truther, and very informative: R.Mackey.

Seriously though, nice pwnage.
It's not meant to be pwnage!!! May I live to be a hundred and never drink again, if I lie!

It's just that Sizzler in particular is so close to understanding something important, something that will actually help him, and yet... somehow... he still manages to reach the wrong conclusion. What I'm trying to say is, if you know how the investigation was conducted, and you know what's actually in the NIST Report, this isn't "anomalous" at all. It's a feature, not a bug.

Maybe we'll get there anyway. Sizzler, I too would be very interested in hearing what you and Dr. Astaneh-Asl have to talk about. His perspective is valuable and dissenting -- but it's a scientist's dissent, not a nihilist's. This can be illuminating for all of is.
R.Mackey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2008, 10:34 PM   #188
cisco
Muse
 
cisco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 709
Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
Well, you're half right.

I'm back, and well on my way to being drunk. I do this for two reasons -- drinking, I mean:

1. The depth of confirmation bias displayed by the Truth Movement makes my head hurt, and alcohol numbs the pain.
Seriously. "Steel melted!" you crow. Not based on a paper, not based on a formal presentation, just a few comments. That's what you've got. You don't know how much steel, where, or why, but you don't care. The only reason you care is because someone (us) said otherwise. Epic Pwnage is in your grasp!

Except you've forgotten that there's an entire wing of the Truth Movement dedicated to repeating the mantra that "NIST recovered no steel that exceeded 250oC!!" Well, that was always false, but I don't have to explain why anymore. You've done it for me! So the next time Kevin Ryan or Tony Szamboti repeats that tired refrain, allow me to refer them to you. Congratulations, you now agree with us.

See, what makes no sense is that you folks come to us arguing both sides of the same coin. "NIST's steel was colder than NIST said." And now "NIST's steel was hotter that NIST said." A normal, rational person might take some time to resolve these contradictory positions before squawking about them, but not you guys!

But I forgive you. I know why you do it -- you come to us with whatever confusions you have because you know we've got the answers. There's no point bringing this up to Steven Jones or Judy Wood or what have you, and you know it. They'll give you some doubletalk and try to accomodate both positions, and you'll learn nothing. We won't, and we don't. It's just too bad you seem locked in a learning cycle forever.

All of this makes me sad. Which brings me to the other reason for inebriation, which is to prove a point:
2. Even to a drunken man, your ideas make no sense.
Earlier tonight, I asked you to answer where Dr. Astaneh-Asl got his steel from. I was going to lead you gradually to an understanding, but it's taking too long and you won't enjoy it anyway, so I'll just say it. He got his steel by setting up shop near the steel recyclers. At the end of the salvage process. There's advantages to doing this, but you need to keep in mind that any steel he got was damaged while standing, damaged as the Pile burned, and subjected to the full chaos of recovery operations. There's no way whatsoever for Dr. Astaneh-Asl to disambiguate between "melting" suffered while the building stood, and "melting" afterwards. He didn't get to see it in place.

But that's not where I wanted to lead you. The real question, the coup de grace, is this: "What happened to the steel after Dr. Astaneh-Asl handled it?" He's talking about all this "melted" and "vaporized" steel -- where is it? Can we see it?

Indeed we can. Class, please open your books to NCSTAR1-3.

The steel that you're talking about was turned over to NIST, where it was examined in detail, and reported on. With pictures. Now, Dr. Astaneh-Asl is a sharp guy, and we can learn a lot from him, but he's not a metallurgist, and he didn't examine the steel thoroughly.

What you're working from are his initial comments. NIST did more, and found that, well, what do you know, it didn't melt after all. Or vaporize. Snicker.

NIST instead does report on "melting," i.e. eutectic action, concluding it happened in the Pile fire and is not relevant in terms of understanding the collapses. Take a look for yourself. We already know this happens, because of Dr. Barnett and Dr. Biederman's work. No mysteries here except to the uneducated and misinformed. Your team.

The only way for your ideas to make sense is if Dr. Astaneh-Asl's steel was different from the NIST steel. It isn't so. He didn't smuggle it home in a suitcase. Nor did NIST decide, in its evil power, to hide some of it so it could spin some alternate story, daring Dr. Astaneh-Asl to call them on it. Why would they? The temperatures involved in melting are actually not implausible, nor incompatible with the core NIST hypothesis. Vaporizing, well yeah, that's a poser, but that doesn't work for anybody's theory, except the space-beamers and nuke-huggers...

Did this happen? Did NIST bury evidence? Why not ask him? Check this out, all you have to do is get Dr. Astaneh-Asl to say "those fiends! They stole the evidence! I had it in my hands!!" Ask him.

He won't. You know how I know? Because he's read NIST cover to cover, like me, and he's been very critical of it. But he's never said that. Dr. Greening presented some of Dr. Astaneh-Asl's objections, and they bear some examination. He believes, possibly, the NIST Report was structured to deemphasize design flaws in the original structure. This could be true.

"Melting" and vaporizing steel, not true.
If even a drunken man can follow this path of reasoning, you should have no trouble with it at all. Impress me.


First post I've ever nominated.
__________________
"Another super dumb post! How can you be so consistently wrong with the real dumb posts? BUSTED, your posts are all totally wrong. The dumbest collection of stupid posts ever, by you. How are you so good at getting every single fact wrong." - beachnut

"If you torture data sufficiently, it will confess to almost anything." - Fred Menger
cisco is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2008, 10:37 PM   #189
ElMondoHummus
0.25 short of being half-witted
 
ElMondoHummus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Somewhere north of the South Pole
Posts: 12,282
Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
Large liver, high tolerance. For alcohol, that is, not doubletalk. I'll be straight by midnight.
Jesus... seek help man...

No, I'm not saying you're an alcoholic... the help can come in the form, for example, of a drinking buddy. Or a bartender. Or at least someone to buy the next round... no matter what, just don't drink alone. Too sad a thing to contemplate.



Anyway, I digress. Serious question now: What effect do you think the burning piles had on recovered steel components? We're no longer necessarily discussing whatever Dr. Astaneh-Asl saw, but we're not excluding it either. Again, some measurements revealed debris pile temperatures reaching 2,800 degrees F (source:
AMERICAN JOURNAL OF INDUSTRIAL MEDICINE, "Firefighter Safety and Health Issues at the World Trade Center Site", Sept. 6, 2002, no direct link (sorry! )).

Yes, of course that doesn't mean the entire pile was that hot; people worked on top of it after all. But there were at least areas that were at ridiculously high temperatures.

Anyway, if the steel girders that Dr. Astaneh-Asl saw were at least partially buried before recovered by NIST, it's in the range of possibilities that there was some effect above any eutectic reactions. Not that you can separate the two; it's all the same steel in the same environment. All I'm trying to get in here is the fact that some steel must have been affected by the heat in the burning debris piles, especially in the hottest piles given the top end temp measured by Bechtel's SH&E in the link above.

ETA: It disturbs me that your avatar's and Cisco's both have sombreros on. Does that mean I'll have to search for one myself?

Hey! There's an idea for Cinco de Mayo this year! We all don avatars with Sombreros! I call dibs on the Bugs Bunny bullfighting one!

That's it. I'm going to bed. Night all!
__________________
"AND ZEPPELINS!!! We haven't even begun to talk about Zeppelins yet! Marauding inflatable Teutonic johnsons waggling their way across the sky! Indecent and flammable all at once."

Last edited by ElMondoHummus; 25th February 2008 at 10:41 PM. Reason: Adding nonsensical (or pseudosensical) mirth prior to bedtime
ElMondoHummus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2008, 10:42 PM   #190
Sizzler
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,562
Originally Posted by coops View Post
can you post a copy of the email you sent Sizzler?
Here you go;

Quote:
Hello Abolhassan Astaneh,

I have a very quick question for you. I recently read an article in which you are quoted from an interview. The section that I am interested in is below;

Collapse of Overpass in California Becomes Lesson in Construction
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/scien...ass_05-10.html

"Here [overpass collapse], it most likely reached about 1,000 to 1,500 degrees. And that is enough to collapse them, so they collapsed. So the word "melting" should not be used for girders, because there was no melting of girders. I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center."



Your use of the word "melting" is a little unclear. Did you see melting of girders such that the girders actually reached the melting point of steel (~1500C) or were the girders distorted/bent/warped and/or twisted? At what temperatures would the "melting" that you saw be possible.

Thank you.

Last edited by Sizzler; 25th February 2008 at 10:45 PM.
Sizzler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2008, 10:42 PM   #191
Myriad
The Clarity Is Devastating
 
Myriad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Betwixt
Posts: 20,891
Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
And... can you point out the melty stuff please?

Clearly the plate in the foreground at the top left is half-melted and glowing yellow-hot. It has somehow remained in that state for at least several hours if not days, despite being up in the open air with nothing insulating it or heating it. Clearly, the only explanation is magic.

Respectfully,
Myriad
__________________
"*Except Myriad. Even Cthulhu would give him a pat on the head and an ice cream and send him to the movies while he ended the rest of the world." - Foster Zygote
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2008, 10:48 PM   #192
cisco
Muse
 
cisco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 709
Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
Here you go;
Haven't you read Dale Carnegie? If you write someone more important than yourself and expect a response you have to start out with a compliment!

Ok, I'm half-kidding but it couldn't have hurt . Let us know if/when he gets back to you.
__________________
"Another super dumb post! How can you be so consistently wrong with the real dumb posts? BUSTED, your posts are all totally wrong. The dumbest collection of stupid posts ever, by you. How are you so good at getting every single fact wrong." - beachnut

"If you torture data sufficiently, it will confess to almost anything." - Fred Menger
cisco is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2008, 10:53 PM   #193
R.Mackey
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 7,854
Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus View Post
Jesus... seek help man...

No, I'm not saying you're an alcoholic... the help can come in the form, for example, of a drinking buddy. Or a bartender. Or at least someone to buy the next round... no matter what, just don't drink alone. Too sad a thing to contemplate.
No worries. I started with nice Tempranillo from the catacombs, shared with two co-workers. Rarely do I drink alone, but sometimes the need is too great...

Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus View Post
ETA: It disturbs me that your avatar's and Cisco's both have sombreros on. Does that mean I'll have to search for one myself?
Sombrero is easy, it's the poncho that counts. Firearm's a nice touch too.

Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
Here you go;
Thanks for posting that, seems simple enough to answer.
R.Mackey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2008, 10:55 PM   #194
Sizzler
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,562
Originally Posted by cisco View Post
Haven't you read Dale Carnegie? If you write someone more important than yourself and expect a response you have to start out with a compliment!

Ok, I'm half-kidding but it couldn't have hurt . Let us know if/when he gets back to you.
Yeah I hear yeah, I'm at work so I just winged it.

I see his e-mail was posted on 9-11 blogger so I assume he has a few others in there like that. Perhaps I'll get a group e-mail.
Sizzler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th February 2008, 02:26 AM   #195
Sizzler
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,562
Quote:
Dear Mr. _______: Thank you for your interest in our research. We publish our findings in public domain and considering a great deal of e-mail I get on our research, in order to provide you with more information, I need to know a bit more about you including your affiliation and possibly a phone contact number. This is due to the fact that I have seen the statements made by the WTC researchers have been taken totally out of context by conspiracy theorists and used as evidence on the Internet that there was a conspiracy of some sort in the collapse of WTC towers. Our research and that of others have shown no evidence of any conspiracy. I find it very unfair and unjustified and to blame the collapse of these towers on conspiracy , which distract the attention from the lessons that we can learn from this tragedy to make our structures more resilient to prevent such a loss of life in the future. Those 19 murderers and their organizers and supporters , who attacked us and killed so many of our loved ones, were the perpetrators of this crime. In my opinion , and in the opinion of any 9/11 victims' family members that I have talked to, the conspiracy theorists are committing a second act of injustice , perhaps unknowingly, by blaming it on some conspiracy. Not knowing you and your motives in seeking the information in your e-mail, I prefer not to get involved with aiding such conspiracy theorists and hope that they will stop such acts. However, to show my courtesy, I am responding to your e-mail and hope that you are not one of the conspiracy theorist or a believer in what they promote.Hope to hear from you on who you are and what do you think of these conspiracy theories.Thank you.A. Astaneh
Can someone else e-mail him please.

Thanks.
Sizzler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th February 2008, 02:29 AM   #196
Matthew Best
Penultimate Amazing
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 10,281
Er, why?

Just respond to his email with your contact details as he has requested.
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th February 2008, 02:32 AM   #197
Sizzler
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,562
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Er, why?

Just respond to his email with your contact details as he has requested.
Well, if he says the steel was literally melted, I'm going to use that to promote conspiracy. I have to tell him my intentions. If I tell him that, he won't respond to me.

I have to be honest.


Perhaps Mackey or Dr. Greening could e-mail him.
Sizzler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th February 2008, 02:35 AM   #198
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 34,249
Can I recommend a url to everyone in this thread who doesn't already know the definition of the word "Eutectic"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutectic_point

Approached without confirmation bias, this concept may aid understanding of the issues in this thread.

One of the metallisations I used to use for contacting semiconductors was a gallium-indium eutectic. Gallium and indium are both solids at room temperature (at least, gallium is solid at the temperature of most rooms in this part of the world), but by pressing pieces of the two together they would form a liquid without any obvious increase in temperature. Stirring round a mixture of small pieces of both would liquefy the whole lot. That's what happens with eutectics; they have much lower melting points than their components.

And this is why this whole argument is irrelevant: the truth movement claims that melted steel indicates higher temperatures in the rubble pile than could have been achieved by a normal fire, indicating the presence of thermite; but melting of a sulphur-steel eutectic is well within the temperature range of normal fires, and eutectic melting is what has actually been observed. In fact, the observation that steel flanges were thinned to razor-sharp edges is clear proof that a eutectic was formed, because short of some kind of moulding process there is no way to form a sharp edge by bulk melting because surface tension will round off the surface. Therefore, no proof of high temperatures, and no proof of thermite. Let me remind the truth movement that the aim of your movement is to produce evidence that the investigations into 9-11 have not resulted in a full understanding of who was responsible and in what ways; it's not to prove that there was some form of melting of steel at GZ. That's why you're not called the 9-11 melted steel movement.

Dave
__________________
There is truth and there are lies.

- President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th February 2008, 02:37 AM   #199
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 34,249
Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
Can someone else e-mail him please.
I don't think that's a good idea, Sizzler. His e-mail can be summarised in two words, and the second one is "off".

Dave
__________________
There is truth and there are lies.

- President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th February 2008, 02:49 AM   #200
leftysergeant
Penultimate Amazing
 
leftysergeant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 18,863
Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
For one thing, the color in this image seems to have been manipulated. This has a (probably deliberate) effect of distorting relief, perhaps adding it where it should not be. It appears to me that whoever edited it meant us to think that metal had melted out of one of the rivet holes in the plate at the top of the perimeter column section.

Turning our attention to the right edge of this object, it is clear that the semi-circular features along the margin of the steel are uniformly placed. Those that are completely open on one side are almost perfectly round. But notice that there is one hole that is not torn out. It is rather elongated horziontally.

Basicly, this looks like the result of the photographed piece of metal's being ripped loose from that next to it, with one bolt failing before it could further damage the structural element. It is really more supportive of a progressive collapse theory. I have, several times stated that the build-up of dbris inside the building forced the columns outward, but not with explosive force.. This ripping of the illustrated joint is consistant with there having been a relatively gradual increase in pressure. That the end of the metal element, with its bolt holes torn out show that not much dispalcement was needed to separate this element from that to which it was joined..

BTW, the question was raised as to where the sulphuric acid could have come from to cause the eutectic melting. It came from emergency lighting systems with lead/acid batteries, and from vehicles burning in and around the area. Some may have been produced on site in the fires in the pile. Rubber has a rather high sulphur content, you might well recall.
leftysergeant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:57 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.