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25th February 2008, 09:35 PM | #161 |
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Why would I avoid a simple question? I'm not a troothbot.
First of all, there is no "official story." The government did not tell us what happened. Thousands of people witnessed and were involved in the events. There is a popular or public account. And yes, the public account is absolutely falsifiable. Can you falsify it? If so I'll buy plane tickets for you, myself, and johnny karate and we'll all go shout from bullhorns at ground zero. |
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25th February 2008, 09:38 PM | #162 |
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Sizzler, if your so confident in your interpretation of what Hassan Astaneh believes why dont you simply email him and get him to confirm your interpretation?
I'm sure if you posted an email direct from the source to back you then you would be able to shut up a lot of your opposition. Your current method of repeating yourself with bigger and bigger font sizes doesnt seem to be convincing anyone. maybe its time to try something completely different. |
25th February 2008, 09:39 PM | #163 |
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25th February 2008, 09:39 PM | #164 |
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If I may inject on behalf of the lurker population...
This isn't even entertaining anymore. Truthers, you're starting to just phone it in. We're witnessing futility on the scale of the Washington Generals here. Boring. Can't someone up their game? For god's sake, won't somebody think of the lurkers! |
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25th February 2008, 09:41 PM | #165 |
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25th February 2008, 09:44 PM | #166 |
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You have post collapse temperatures in the rubble pile of up to 2,800 degrees F, and you also have the eutectic reactions, which allows steel not exposed to temperatures that high to show signs of melting. What does your assertion of Astaneh-Asl's report end up showing? That eutetic reactions occurred, and that rubble pile temperatures were indeed high? Or are you trying to purport something else?
Remember, in the article you cite, Dr. Astaneh-Asl did not attribute his sighting of melting on girders to pre-collapse events. He didn't attribute the melting of WTC girders to anything either pre- or post-collapse; he only mentioned them in passing while discussing softened steel in the California bridge collapse event. There is nothing about his statement that excludes either the eutectic reactions Mackey is discussing, or possible melting from the rubble piles that I have put forth. Not only that, as they are the logical reasons for the observations Dr. Astaneh-Asl made, the most he's doing is supporting the presence of both those reactions and the high post-collapse rubble temperatures. So, what again does his statement about girders prove? |
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25th February 2008, 09:47 PM | #167 |
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So... How did he identify them as steel girders if they were completely melted? I suspect his definition of "melted" in this context is not the same as the one you're applying. Perhaps you should clarify for yourself that you're interpreting his words correctly before declaring even a hollow victory. |
25th February 2008, 09:47 PM | #168 |
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25th February 2008, 09:51 PM | #169 |
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not a problem.
You've already been provided with his email address and i'm sure you can chase up a contact phone number without too much trouble. Please keep us in the loop with your exchanges with Hassan so that your not accused of dodging the issue. As an aside, if when you contact Hassan he tells you that he didnt mean what you think he means what will your response be? |
25th February 2008, 09:52 PM | #170 |
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25th February 2008, 09:54 PM | #171 |
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25th February 2008, 09:55 PM | #172 |
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"He noted the way steel from the WTC had bent at several connection points that had joined the floors to the vertical columns. He described the connections as being smoothly warped, saying, "If you remember the Salvador Dali paintings with the clocks that are kind of melted--it's kind of like that."
Yup, misread that quote. Will be e-mailing with all these questions. Will get back to you soon. |
25th February 2008, 09:58 PM | #173 |
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25th February 2008, 09:59 PM | #174 |
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"Another super dumb post! How can you be so consistently wrong with the real dumb posts? BUSTED, your posts are all totally wrong. The dumbest collection of stupid posts ever, by you. How are you so good at getting every single fact wrong." - beachnut "If you torture data sufficiently, it will confess to almost anything." - Fred Menger |
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25th February 2008, 10:00 PM | #175 |
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25th February 2008, 10:01 PM | #176 |
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"Another super dumb post! How can you be so consistently wrong with the real dumb posts? BUSTED, your posts are all totally wrong. The dumbest collection of stupid posts ever, by you. How are you so good at getting every single fact wrong." - beachnut "If you torture data sufficiently, it will confess to almost anything." - Fred Menger |
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25th February 2008, 10:01 PM | #177 |
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In Vino Veritas
Well, you're half right.
I'm back, and well on my way to being drunk. I do this for two reasons -- drinking, I mean: 1. The depth of confirmation bias displayed by the Truth Movement makes my head hurt, and alcohol numbs the pain. Seriously. "Steel melted!" you crow. Not based on a paper, not based on a formal presentation, just a few comments. That's what you've got. You don't know how much steel, where, or why, but you don't care. The only reason you care is because someone (us) said otherwise. Epic Pwnage is in your grasp!2. Even to a drunken man, your ideas make no sense. Earlier tonight, I asked you to answer where Dr. Astaneh-Asl got his steel from. I was going to lead you gradually to an understanding, but it's taking too long and you won't enjoy it anyway, so I'll just say it. He got his steel by setting up shop near the steel recyclers. At the end of the salvage process. There's advantages to doing this, but you need to keep in mind that any steel he got was damaged while standing, damaged as the Pile burned, and subjected to the full chaos of recovery operations. There's no way whatsoever for Dr. Astaneh-Asl to disambiguate between "melting" suffered while the building stood, and "melting" afterwards. He didn't get to see it in place.If even a drunken man can follow this path of reasoning, you should have no trouble with it at all. Impress me. |
25th February 2008, 10:06 PM | #178 |
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There you go. Whatever Dr. Astaneh-Asl observed was a result of events that occured after the collapse.
So, in summary, what is the significance of the good Doctor's observations again? ETA: Whoops, Mackey, I wasn't aiming that at you. ETA another thing: Jesus, Mackey, it's a weeknight. You're gettin' hammered? |
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25th February 2008, 10:17 PM | #179 |
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e-mail sent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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25th February 2008, 10:18 PM | #180 |
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Anyone have any pictures of the wide-flange that is accused of being partially melted here? It sounds to me like it could have been just a coped flange.
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25th February 2008, 10:21 PM | #181 |
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25th February 2008, 10:23 PM | #182 |
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25th February 2008, 10:24 PM | #183 |
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This is from 911blogger. |
25th February 2008, 10:26 PM | #184 |
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25th February 2008, 10:28 PM | #185 |
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I was going to post in this thread about how damn pointless all this was (it's gotten to the point where the CTers are asking us to debunk material that we mostly agree with, ferredsake!), but I figure now I should also thank R.Mackey for his drunken explanation post. More coherent than a sober truther, and very informative: R.Mackey.
Seriously though, nice pwnage. |
25th February 2008, 10:29 PM | #186 |
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"Structural Engineering is the art of molding materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyze so as to understand forces we cannot really assess in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our own ignorance." James E Amrhein |
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25th February 2008, 10:32 PM | #187 |
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It's not meant to be pwnage!!! May I live to be a hundred and never drink again, if I lie!
It's just that Sizzler in particular is so close to understanding something important, something that will actually help him, and yet... somehow... he still manages to reach the wrong conclusion. What I'm trying to say is, if you know how the investigation was conducted, and you know what's actually in the NIST Report, this isn't "anomalous" at all. It's a feature, not a bug. Maybe we'll get there anyway. Sizzler, I too would be very interested in hearing what you and Dr. Astaneh-Asl have to talk about. His perspective is valuable and dissenting -- but it's a scientist's dissent, not a nihilist's. This can be illuminating for all of is. |
25th February 2008, 10:34 PM | #188 |
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"Another super dumb post! How can you be so consistently wrong with the real dumb posts? BUSTED, your posts are all totally wrong. The dumbest collection of stupid posts ever, by you. How are you so good at getting every single fact wrong." - beachnut "If you torture data sufficiently, it will confess to almost anything." - Fred Menger |
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25th February 2008, 10:37 PM | #189 |
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Jesus... seek help man...
No, I'm not saying you're an alcoholic... the help can come in the form, for example, of a drinking buddy. Or a bartender. Or at least someone to buy the next round... no matter what, just don't drink alone. Too sad a thing to contemplate. Anyway, I digress. Serious question now: What effect do you think the burning piles had on recovered steel components? We're no longer necessarily discussing whatever Dr. Astaneh-Asl saw, but we're not excluding it either. Again, some measurements revealed debris pile temperatures reaching 2,800 degrees F (source: AMERICAN JOURNAL OF INDUSTRIAL MEDICINE, "Firefighter Safety and Health Issues at the World Trade Center Site", Sept. 6, 2002, no direct link (sorry! )). Yes, of course that doesn't mean the entire pile was that hot; people worked on top of it after all. But there were at least areas that were at ridiculously high temperatures. Anyway, if the steel girders that Dr. Astaneh-Asl saw were at least partially buried before recovered by NIST, it's in the range of possibilities that there was some effect above any eutectic reactions. Not that you can separate the two; it's all the same steel in the same environment. All I'm trying to get in here is the fact that some steel must have been affected by the heat in the burning debris piles, especially in the hottest piles given the top end temp measured by Bechtel's SH&E in the link above. ETA: It disturbs me that your avatar's and Cisco's both have sombreros on. Does that mean I'll have to search for one myself? Hey! There's an idea for Cinco de Mayo this year! We all don avatars with Sombreros! I call dibs on the Bugs Bunny bullfighting one! That's it. I'm going to bed. Night all! |
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"AND ZEPPELINS!!! We haven't even begun to talk about Zeppelins yet! Marauding inflatable Teutonic johnsons waggling their way across the sky! Indecent and flammable all at once." Last edited by ElMondoHummus; 25th February 2008 at 10:41 PM. Reason: Adding nonsensical (or pseudosensical) mirth prior to bedtime |
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25th February 2008, 10:42 PM | #190 |
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25th February 2008, 10:42 PM | #191 |
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Clearly the plate in the foreground at the top left is half-melted and glowing yellow-hot. It has somehow remained in that state for at least several hours if not days, despite being up in the open air with nothing insulating it or heating it. Clearly, the only explanation is magic. Respectfully, Myriad |
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25th February 2008, 10:48 PM | #192 |
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"Another super dumb post! How can you be so consistently wrong with the real dumb posts? BUSTED, your posts are all totally wrong. The dumbest collection of stupid posts ever, by you. How are you so good at getting every single fact wrong." - beachnut "If you torture data sufficiently, it will confess to almost anything." - Fred Menger |
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25th February 2008, 10:53 PM | #193 |
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No worries. I started with nice Tempranillo from the catacombs, shared with two co-workers. Rarely do I drink alone, but sometimes the need is too great...
Sombrero is easy, it's the poncho that counts. Firearm's a nice touch too. Thanks for posting that, seems simple enough to answer. |
25th February 2008, 10:55 PM | #194 |
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26th February 2008, 02:26 AM | #195 |
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Quote:
Thanks. |
26th February 2008, 02:29 AM | #196 |
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Er, why?
Just respond to his email with your contact details as he has requested. |
26th February 2008, 02:32 AM | #197 |
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26th February 2008, 02:35 AM | #198 |
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Can I recommend a url to everyone in this thread who doesn't already know the definition of the word "Eutectic"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutectic_point Approached without confirmation bias, this concept may aid understanding of the issues in this thread. One of the metallisations I used to use for contacting semiconductors was a gallium-indium eutectic. Gallium and indium are both solids at room temperature (at least, gallium is solid at the temperature of most rooms in this part of the world), but by pressing pieces of the two together they would form a liquid without any obvious increase in temperature. Stirring round a mixture of small pieces of both would liquefy the whole lot. That's what happens with eutectics; they have much lower melting points than their components. And this is why this whole argument is irrelevant: the truth movement claims that melted steel indicates higher temperatures in the rubble pile than could have been achieved by a normal fire, indicating the presence of thermite; but melting of a sulphur-steel eutectic is well within the temperature range of normal fires, and eutectic melting is what has actually been observed. In fact, the observation that steel flanges were thinned to razor-sharp edges is clear proof that a eutectic was formed, because short of some kind of moulding process there is no way to form a sharp edge by bulk melting because surface tension will round off the surface. Therefore, no proof of high temperatures, and no proof of thermite. Let me remind the truth movement that the aim of your movement is to produce evidence that the investigations into 9-11 have not resulted in a full understanding of who was responsible and in what ways; it's not to prove that there was some form of melting of steel at GZ. That's why you're not called the 9-11 melted steel movement. Dave |
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26th February 2008, 02:37 AM | #199 |
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26th February 2008, 02:49 AM | #200 |
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For one thing, the color in this image seems to have been manipulated. This has a (probably deliberate) effect of distorting relief, perhaps adding it where it should not be. It appears to me that whoever edited it meant us to think that metal had melted out of one of the rivet holes in the plate at the top of the perimeter column section.
Turning our attention to the right edge of this object, it is clear that the semi-circular features along the margin of the steel are uniformly placed. Those that are completely open on one side are almost perfectly round. But notice that there is one hole that is not torn out. It is rather elongated horziontally. Basicly, this looks like the result of the photographed piece of metal's being ripped loose from that next to it, with one bolt failing before it could further damage the structural element. It is really more supportive of a progressive collapse theory. I have, several times stated that the build-up of dbris inside the building forced the columns outward, but not with explosive force.. This ripping of the illustrated joint is consistant with there having been a relatively gradual increase in pressure. That the end of the metal element, with its bolt holes torn out show that not much dispalcement was needed to separate this element from that to which it was joined.. BTW, the question was raised as to where the sulphuric acid could have come from to cause the eutectic melting. It came from emergency lighting systems with lead/acid batteries, and from vehicles burning in and around the area. Some may have been produced on site in the fires in the pile. Rubber has a rather high sulphur content, you might well recall. |
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