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26th February 2008, 03:32 AM | #201 |
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I would like to see Sizzler response to the magnificent post # 177
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26th February 2008, 03:34 AM | #202 |
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Quote:
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26th February 2008, 03:38 AM | #203 |
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26th February 2008, 03:45 AM | #204 |
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Hello??? Anyone home??? I understand that, and I expressed that in my follow up post.
Does this mean no one can now e-mail him and find out what he meant with his use of the word "melting"? Why is it such a secret anyway. SHouldn't he just clear the air and tell us that he didn't really mean the steel "melted", ie turned to molten steel? It is too late anyway. His research is being used by CT whether he likes it or not. I totally understand why he sent me the e-mail he did, but I'm sure he'd trust someone like mackey or dr greening. Isn't this knowledge we should know? |
26th February 2008, 03:49 AM | #205 |
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A couple of comments about this, then.
(a) It seems quite clear that HA is concerned that the collapses might have been in part due to defective design of the Twin Towers, in that their fire resistance was not what should have been expected; also that he's concerned that the structure of the NIST investigation was such that any defect of this sort would not have been remarked upon. In other words, NIST's investigation is biased in favour of a greater requirement for structural damage to bring about global collapse than may have actually been sufficient in practice. (b) Since the truth movement's interpretation of the NIST report is that it is biased in favour of a lesser requirement for structural damage, thereby hiding the impossibility of global collapse without some additional assistance, then HA's objections to the staffing of the NIST enquiry actually weaken the truth movement's case rather than strengthening it. In other words, it's exactly the same as Quintiere's objections; the truth movement seizes on any disagreement in the engineering community and hallucinates that this is evidence of an inside job. It's a bit like the line of argument that, because some firefighters say several floors of WTC7 were fully engaged and others say all floors were fully engaged, therefore no floors were fully engaged. I'm starting to compile a list of logical fallacies peculiar to the truth movement. I propose to call this one the "appeal to contradiction", unless anyone's got a better idea. Dave |
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26th February 2008, 03:53 AM | #206 |
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I think the problem is that you are the only one who sees his use of "melted" meaning molten. No one else seems to have this problem and so, don't feel the need to email him.
You can still get through to him by giving him your contact details. I mean, why not? What's he going to do, hack your comp or spam you with gay porn? You don't have to lie to him, just ask him for the same clarification that you asked for before. |
26th February 2008, 03:54 AM | #207 |
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26th February 2008, 03:57 AM | #208 |
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26th February 2008, 03:58 AM | #209 |
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I wrote him too, including links to this thread.
Cheers, P |
26th February 2008, 04:02 AM | #210 |
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When he says "melted" the truthers are all over it
When he says the lift shaft walls were "thrown away" they do not even whimper? |
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26th February 2008, 04:15 AM | #211 |
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26th February 2008, 04:30 AM | #212 |
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Gentlemen
This is a senior and respected expert in his field. If he is so kind as to post here or reply then we should be very much obliged, however I fear that he will be understandably cautious about getting drawn into the kind of fruitless debate which we typically encounter with the Truth Movement - especially if he is concerned that he will be quoted out of context. |
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26th February 2008, 04:35 AM | #213 |
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26th February 2008, 04:36 AM | #214 |
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The contract given to Leslie Stephenson's firm right off the bat by NIST: What was it, was there a particular reason that only they could do it, and were there any safeguards in place to check their work?
The answers to these questions are available and illuminating. |
26th February 2008, 04:39 AM | #215 |
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I just don't know why we need to bother this guy just because a couple conspiracy theorists don't understand what he is saying. I wouldn't wish having to deal with some of the truthers on my worst enemy.
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26th February 2008, 04:39 AM | #216 |
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26th February 2008, 04:54 AM | #217 |
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I just noticed this from your bump.
He's told you that he doesn't want his evidence used to promote a conspiracy theory. You've decided that you want to use his evidence to promote a conspiracy theory, but you realise that if you tell him that, then he won't go to the trouble of making a specific statement that you can then interpret to promote your agenda. Your solution to this dilemma is to ask someone else to e-mail him, prompt him to make a statement that you can then interpret to promote a conspiracy theory, and thus trick him into doing something he has specifically told you he has no intention of doing. You have a very flexible definition of the concept of honesty. Dave |
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26th February 2008, 05:04 AM | #218 |
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26th February 2008, 05:06 AM | #219 |
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26th February 2008, 05:08 AM | #220 |
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26th February 2008, 05:22 AM | #221 |
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26th February 2008, 05:23 AM | #222 |
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26th February 2008, 06:00 AM | #223 |
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How about point 1? Try that first. Explain the contradictions
Then look at the NIST reference for point 2. You do not need the source for that it has been given to you. You do realize that the answer you gave above makes you look silly and like you are on the dodge to the lurkers? |
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26th February 2008, 06:00 AM | #224 |
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26th February 2008, 06:02 AM | #225 |
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26th February 2008, 06:27 AM | #226 |
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Correction: The man does not want to talk to dishonest, quote-mining conspiracy nuts with an agendas and few clues between them. Since you've admitted happily to being in this camp, he obviously has no desire for you to take his comments and twists them in the typical twoofer fashion.
Don't mistake 'Doesn't want to talk' with 'Doesn't want to talk with you'. Maybe if you guys were honest, you wouldn't have these problems. |
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26th February 2008, 06:36 AM | #227 |
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26th February 2008, 07:05 AM | #228 |
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"Structural Engineering is the art of molding materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyze so as to understand forces we cannot really assess in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our own ignorance." James E Amrhein |
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26th February 2008, 07:21 AM | #229 |
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26th February 2008, 07:24 AM | #230 |
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If I were a truther, why the hell would I spend all my time posting here. Isn't that kinda perverse (there is some irony in that that I just noted?)
Second, my e-mail was very straightforward. The fact that I actually e-mailed him demonstrates (for the first time), that I am actually interested in the truth. I assume that he is a very respectable man in light of the fact that he basically told me I was a nut in the nicest way possible. I don't want to pretend to be in anyone's shoes but if I were him I'd address this issue (or non-issue) before it gets out of hand (within the truth movement). He is a very respectable scientist being quoted as saying 'steel melted". I pounced on this and have now stepped back after 1/2 a day of thinking about it and accepting certain posts made here. Thanks to the reasoning of Mackey et al, it is probable that he meant intergranular melting with deformation (is this word right?) or sulfidation/rapid oxidation or a combination of the both. I hope he shares the information with some of the more "respected" truth movement 'leaders". |
26th February 2008, 07:45 AM | #231 |
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Given the well-known propensity of the more "respected" truth movement leaders for quote mining, blatant misrepresentation and wilful misinterpretation of expert opinion, I'm sure he realises that any information he tries to share will be deliberately twisted by them to appear to support a conspiracy theory, which is why he's clearly refusing to talk to them at all.
Dave |
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26th February 2008, 07:50 AM | #232 |
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Then reply honestly. Say you are involved in the truth movement, but are actually trying to find real answers, whatever they may be. If you go this route, be honest with him and yourself, and do not attempt to twist his words. Do not go about jumping on the one odd statement and using it to attempt to discredit a reliable study. Do not go around ignoring things just because you do not understand exactly how the researchers arrived at their conclusion. Instead, accept the conclusion drawn from the facts, and don't go looking for obscure points to nitpick on so you can keep going with a convoluted fantasy which raises many questions and answers none. He may or may not reply, and if he does it may well be a very curt analysis of what he thinks of the truth movement, but at least it's honest. And I kind of feel he deserves to know, having already replied. |
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26th February 2008, 07:52 AM | #233 |
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Hey Red, I'm having trouble finding the part where this guy says he endorses Thermite magic bombs and believes in a controlled demolition.
Care to point it out? |
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26th February 2008, 07:54 AM | #234 |
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26th February 2008, 08:03 AM | #235 |
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26th February 2008, 08:11 AM | #236 |
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Vive la liberté! |
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26th February 2008, 08:13 AM | #237 |
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26th February 2008, 08:47 AM | #238 |
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26th February 2008, 09:00 AM | #239 |
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Somebody asked earlier in this thread " Is this what the truth movement is reduced to ? "
Having read this thread, the answer is yes. They are reduced to utter desperation, they have failed completly to have their theories endorsed by anybody other than those who really could not care less. A fringe group driven by nothing other than blind faith and dreadful " research". This thread above all others shows what a laughing stock they are and the underhand methods they use to sell their insanity to others. I feel that the email reply from this well respected researcher very telling. Go away and grow up, was the message. The saddest part of all is they won't, they will continue to scream and shout and dismiss all that simply destroys their theories. Oh how proud they must be. |
26th February 2008, 09:00 AM | #240 |
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Oh, for the love of God, people, do we really need to email this poor guy so much? What we all need to know from Dr. Astaneh-Asl is already included in 1. His published research, 2. His email to Dr. Greening, and 3. The interviews already conducted with him.
If there's any ambiguity to what he says, it's perceptual ambiguity imposed by careless readings of and divorcing of context from his work. What he's said and written needs to be studied as a whole, not individual statements here and there extracted and put to use for purposes other than that which he originally meant them for. His work on the towers needs to be studied within both the temporal and situational contexts in which it was presented, not extracted to create false interpretations of his opinions (i.e. 9/11 Blogger, and his quote about the towers being "the best-designed building I have ever seen", an opinion he quite obviously abandoned later, after study of the design documentation). It cannot be used to nitpick elements contradictory to the conspiracy fantasy when it supports the overall concept of impacts plus fires lead to collapse. Instead of seeking supposed clarification from him, clarification that should be unnecessary when you consider the context surrounding his various quotes, his work should instead be considered in toto, instead of in chunks of isolated statements devoid of context. That will show what he really thinks, and what he really thinks is that the fires brought down the Twin Towers. He has said as much. |
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