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Tags Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl , astaneh , steel , steel wastage , wastage , wpi , wtc 1 , WTC 2 , wtc 7

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Old 26th February 2008, 03:32 AM   #201
funk de fino
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I would like to see Sizzler response to the magnificent post # 177
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Old 26th February 2008, 03:34 AM   #202
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Quote:
BTW, the question was raised as to where the sulphuric acid could have come from to cause the eutectic melting. It came from emergency lighting systems with lead/acid batteries, and from vehicles burning in and around the area. Some may have been produced on site in the fires in the pile. Rubber has a rather high sulphur content, you might well recall.
This is slightly off topic, but, how are you so sure?
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Old 26th February 2008, 03:38 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
Can someone else e-mail him please.

Thanks.
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I don't think that's a good idea, Sizzler. His e-mail can be summarised in two words, and the second one is "off".

Dave
I would tend to agree.
The man made it very clear what his criteria are for responding further to you.
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Old 26th February 2008, 03:45 AM   #204
Sizzler
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Originally Posted by chillzero View Post
I would tend to agree.
The man made it very clear what his criteria are for responding further to you.
Hello??? Anyone home??? I understand that, and I expressed that in my follow up post.

Does this mean no one can now e-mail him and find out what he meant with his use of the word "melting"?

Why is it such a secret anyway. SHouldn't he just clear the air and tell us that he didn't really mean the steel "melted", ie turned to molten steel?

It is too late anyway. His research is being used by CT whether he likes it or not.

I totally understand why he sent me the e-mail he did, but I'm sure he'd trust someone like mackey or dr greening. Isn't this knowledge we should know?
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Old 26th February 2008, 03:49 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
Here is part of an e-mail HA wrote to me back in Sept 2007:

[snippage]

No wonder again that the NIST report does not say anything (almost)
remotely negative about the structural design.
So, here we are with this corrupt profession of mine (civil and
structural engineering) in charge of public safety.
A couple of comments about this, then.

(a) It seems quite clear that HA is concerned that the collapses might have been in part due to defective design of the Twin Towers, in that their fire resistance was not what should have been expected; also that he's concerned that the structure of the NIST investigation was such that any defect of this sort would not have been remarked upon. In other words, NIST's investigation is biased in favour of a greater requirement for structural damage to bring about global collapse than may have actually been sufficient in practice.

(b) Since the truth movement's interpretation of the NIST report is that it is biased in favour of a lesser requirement for structural damage, thereby hiding the impossibility of global collapse without some additional assistance, then HA's objections to the staffing of the NIST enquiry actually weaken the truth movement's case rather than strengthening it.

In other words, it's exactly the same as Quintiere's objections; the truth movement seizes on any disagreement in the engineering community and hallucinates that this is evidence of an inside job. It's a bit like the line of argument that, because some firefighters say several floors of WTC7 were fully engaged and others say all floors were fully engaged, therefore no floors were fully engaged.

I'm starting to compile a list of logical fallacies peculiar to the truth movement. I propose to call this one the "appeal to contradiction", unless anyone's got a better idea.

Dave
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Old 26th February 2008, 03:53 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
Hello??? Anyone home??? I understand that, and I expressed that in my follow up post.

Does this mean no one can now e-mail him and find out what he meant with his use of the word "melting"?

Why is it such a secret anyway. SHouldn't he just clear the air and tell us that he didn't really mean the steel "melted", ie turned to molten steel?

It is too late anyway. His research is being used by CT whether he likes it or not.

I totally understand why he sent me the e-mail he did, but I'm sure he'd trust someone like mackey or dr greening. Isn't this knowledge we should know?
I think the problem is that you are the only one who sees his use of "melted" meaning molten. No one else seems to have this problem and so, don't feel the need to email him.

You can still get through to him by giving him your contact details. I mean, why not? What's he going to do, hack your comp or spam you with gay porn?

You don't have to lie to him, just ask him for the same clarification that you asked for before.
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Old 26th February 2008, 03:54 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
I think the problem is that you are the only one who sees his use of "melted" meaning molten. No one else seems to have this problem and so, don't feel the need to email him.

You can still get through to him by giving him your contact details. I mean, why not? What's he going to do, hack your comp or spam you with gay porn?

You don't have to lie to him, just ask him for the same clarification that you asked for before.
Maybe I like gay porn

I'll give it a go. The worst that can happen is he doesn't reply.
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Old 26th February 2008, 03:57 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
The worst that can happen is he doesn't reply.
Not that there's anything wrong with that...
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Old 26th February 2008, 03:58 AM   #209
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I wrote him too, including links to this thread.

Cheers,
P
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Old 26th February 2008, 04:02 AM   #210
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When he says "melted" the truthers are all over it

When he says the lift shaft walls were "thrown away" they do not even whimper?
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Old 26th February 2008, 04:15 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Panoply_Prefect View Post
I wrote him too, including links to this thread.

Cheers,
P
Great idea. Maybe he will join in on the conversation!!
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Old 26th February 2008, 04:30 AM   #212
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Gentlemen

This is a senior and respected expert in his field. If he is so kind as to post here or reply then we should be very much obliged, however I fear that he will be understandably cautious about getting drawn into the kind of fruitless debate which we typically encounter with the Truth Movement - especially if he is concerned that he will be quoted out of context.
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Old 26th February 2008, 04:35 AM   #213
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Quote:
In my opinion , and in the opinion of any 9/11 victims' family members that I have talked to, the conspiracy theorists are committing a second act of injustice , perhaps unknowingly, by blaming it on some conspiracy. Not knowing you and your motives in seeking the information in your e-mail, I prefer not to get involved with aiding such conspiracy theorists and hope that they will stop such acts.
Originally Posted by Panoply_Prefect View Post
I wrote him too, including links to this thread.
Well, I'm sure the link in the OP will reassure him there's no danger of any conspiracy theorists misrepresenting his work here

Dave
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Old 26th February 2008, 04:36 AM   #214
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The contract given to Leslie Stephenson's firm right off the bat by NIST: What was it, was there a particular reason that only they could do it, and were there any safeguards in place to check their work?

The answers to these questions are available and illuminating.
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Old 26th February 2008, 04:39 AM   #215
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I just don't know why we need to bother this guy just because a couple conspiracy theorists don't understand what he is saying. I wouldn't wish having to deal with some of the truthers on my worst enemy.
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Old 26th February 2008, 04:39 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
Well, if he says the steel was literally melted, I'm going to use that to promote conspiracy. I have to tell him my intentions. If I tell him that, he won't respond to me.

I have to be honest.


Perhaps Mackey or Dr. Greening could e-mail him.
bump

Last edited by Sizzler; 26th February 2008 at 04:45 AM.
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Old 26th February 2008, 04:54 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
Well, if he says the steel was literally melted, I'm going to use that to promote conspiracy. I have to tell him my intentions. If I tell him that, he won't respond to me.

I have to be honest.
I just noticed this from your bump.

He's told you that he doesn't want his evidence used to promote a conspiracy theory. You've decided that you want to use his evidence to promote a conspiracy theory, but you realise that if you tell him that, then he won't go to the trouble of making a specific statement that you can then interpret to promote your agenda. Your solution to this dilemma is to ask someone else to e-mail him, prompt him to make a statement that you can then interpret to promote a conspiracy theory, and thus trick him into doing something he has specifically told you he has no intention of doing.

You have a very flexible definition of the concept of honesty.

Dave
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Last edited by Dave Rogers; 26th February 2008 at 04:54 AM.
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Old 26th February 2008, 05:04 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
bump
Post 177? Any comeback to it?

Or are you just on the run?
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Old 26th February 2008, 05:06 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I just noticed this from your bump.

He's told you that he doesn't want his evidence used to promote a conspiracy theory. You've decided that you want to use his evidence to promote a conspiracy theory, but you realise that if you tell him that, then he won't go to the trouble of making a specific statement that you can then interpret to promote your agenda. Your solution to this dilemma is to ask someone else to e-mail him, prompt him to make a statement that you can then interpret to promote a conspiracy theory, and thus trick him into doing something he has specifically told you he has no intention of doing.

You have a very flexible definition of the concept of honesty.

Dave
This is enhanced by the fact that the post did not originally say 'bump'.
Have you retracted your retraction?
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Old 26th February 2008, 05:08 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
Can someone else e-mail him please.

Thanks.
Er...why?

The email is pretty clear - he saw nothing that would indicate any kind of 'inside job' conspiracy. There's your answer.
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Old 26th February 2008, 05:22 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by chillzero View Post
This is enhanced by the fact that the post did not originally say 'bump'.
Have you retracted your retraction?
Didn't want to put my foot in my mouth.

Point taken by all.

The man doesn't want to talk. I'll leave it at that.....
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Old 26th February 2008, 05:23 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
Post 177? Any comeback to it?

Or are you just on the run?
His post has merit, but I'd like to see it from the source. That isn't possible now...
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Old 26th February 2008, 06:00 AM   #223
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How about point 1? Try that first. Explain the contradictions

Then look at the NIST reference for point 2. You do not need the source for that it has been given to you.

You do realize that the answer you gave above makes you look silly and like you are on the dodge to the lurkers?
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Old 26th February 2008, 06:00 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
Gentlemen

This is a senior and respected expert in his field. If he is so kind as to post here or reply then we should be very much obliged, however I fear that he will be understandably cautious about getting drawn into the kind of fruitless debate which we typically encounter with the Truth Movement - especially if he is concerned that he will be quoted out of context.
And Ladies, right?

Unfortunately he has already been quoted out of context.
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Old 26th February 2008, 06:02 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
Didn't want to put my foot in my mouth.

Point taken by all.

The man doesn't want to talk. I'll leave it at that.....
Its not that he won't talk, its who he won't talk to that should tell you something.
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Old 26th February 2008, 06:27 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
The man doesn't want to talk. I'll leave it at that.....
Correction: The man does not want to talk to dishonest, quote-mining conspiracy nuts with an agendas and few clues between them. Since you've admitted happily to being in this camp, he obviously has no desire for you to take his comments and twists them in the typical twoofer fashion.

Don't mistake 'Doesn't want to talk' with 'Doesn't want to talk with you'.

Maybe if you guys were honest, you wouldn't have these problems.
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Old 26th February 2008, 06:36 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by JHarrow View Post
Particularly interesting is this bit



How exactly did the fires in 7 do that?
Corrosion due to prolonged exposure to fire in the debris pile.

Put a steel sprung mattress on a bonfire, all you'll have left afterwards will be the springs, but they'll all be rusty and corroded, despite the fire never reaching the melting point of steel.
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Old 26th February 2008, 07:05 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
For one thing, the color in this image seems to have been manipulated. This has a (probably deliberate) effect of distorting relief, perhaps adding it where it should not be. It appears to me that whoever edited it meant us to think that metal had melted out of one of the rivet holes in the plate at the top of the perimeter column section.

Turning our attention to the right edge of this object, it is clear that the semi-circular features along the margin of the steel are uniformly placed. Those that are completely open on one side are almost perfectly round. But notice that there is one hole that is not torn out. It is rather elongated horziontally.

Basicly, this looks like the result of the photographed piece of metal's being ripped loose from that next to it, with one bolt failing before it could further damage the structural element. It is really more supportive of a progressive collapse theory. I have, several times stated that the build-up of dbris inside the building forced the columns outward, but not with explosive force.. This ripping of the illustrated joint is consistant with there having been a relatively gradual increase in pressure. That the end of the metal element, with its bolt holes torn out show that not much dispalcement was needed to separate this element from that to which it was joined..

BTW, the question was raised as to where the sulphuric acid could have come from to cause the eutectic melting. It came from emergency lighting systems with lead/acid batteries, and from vehicles burning in and around the area. Some may have been produced on site in the fires in the pile. Rubber has a rather high sulphur content, you might well recall.
It's technically known as block shear and it's a classic failure type. I see nothing that has melted in that picture.
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Old 26th February 2008, 07:21 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
And Ladies, right?

No, it was clear to me that the ladies were above such matters and I was only remonstrating with the lads.....

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Old 26th February 2008, 07:24 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Correction: The man does not want to talk to dishonest, quote-mining conspiracy nuts with an agendas and few clues between them. Since you've admitted happily to being in this camp, he obviously has no desire for you to take his comments and twists them in the typical twoofer fashion.

Don't mistake 'Doesn't want to talk' with 'Doesn't want to talk with you'.

Maybe if you guys were honest, you wouldn't have these problems.
If I were a truther, why the hell would I spend all my time posting here. Isn't that kinda perverse (there is some irony in that that I just noted?)

Second, my e-mail was very straightforward. The fact that I actually e-mailed him demonstrates (for the first time), that I am actually interested in the truth.

I assume that he is a very respectable man in light of the fact that he basically told me I was a nut in the nicest way possible.

I don't want to pretend to be in anyone's shoes but if I were him I'd address this issue (or non-issue) before it gets out of hand (within the truth movement). He is a very respectable scientist being quoted as saying 'steel melted". I pounced on this and have now stepped back after 1/2 a day of thinking about it and accepting certain posts made here.

Thanks to the reasoning of Mackey et al, it is probable that he meant intergranular melting with deformation (is this word right?) or sulfidation/rapid oxidation or a combination of the both.

I hope he shares the information with some of the more "respected" truth movement 'leaders".
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Old 26th February 2008, 07:45 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
I hope he shares the information with some of the more "respected" truth movement 'leaders".
Given the well-known propensity of the more "respected" truth movement leaders for quote mining, blatant misrepresentation and wilful misinterpretation of expert opinion, I'm sure he realises that any information he tries to share will be deliberately twisted by them to appear to support a conspiracy theory, which is why he's clearly refusing to talk to them at all.

Dave
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Old 26th February 2008, 07:50 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
If I were a truther, why the hell would I spend all my time posting here. Isn't that kinda perverse (there is some irony in that that I just noted?)

Second, my e-mail was very straightforward. The fact that I actually e-mailed him demonstrates (for the first time), that I am actually interested in the truth.

I assume that he is a very respectable man in light of the fact that he basically told me I was a nut in the nicest way possible.

I don't want to pretend to be in anyone's shoes but if I were him I'd address this issue (or non-issue) before it gets out of hand (within the truth movement). He is a very respectable scientist being quoted as saying 'steel melted". I pounced on this and have now stepped back after 1/2 a day of thinking about it and accepting certain posts made here.

Thanks to the reasoning of Mackey et al, it is probable that he meant intergranular melting with deformation (is this word right?) or sulfidation/rapid oxidation or a combination of the both.

I hope he shares the information with some of the more "respected" truth movement 'leaders".

Then reply honestly.
Say you are involved in the truth movement, but are actually trying to find real answers, whatever they may be.

If you go this route, be honest with him and yourself, and do not attempt to twist his words. Do not go about jumping on the one odd statement and using it to attempt to discredit a reliable study. Do not go around ignoring things just because you do not understand exactly how the researchers arrived at their conclusion.
Instead, accept the conclusion drawn from the facts, and don't go looking for obscure points to nitpick on so you can keep going with a convoluted fantasy which raises many questions and answers none.

He may or may not reply, and if he does it may well be a very curt analysis of what he thinks of the truth movement, but at least it's honest.
And I kind of feel he deserves to know, having already replied.
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Old 26th February 2008, 07:52 AM   #233
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Hey Red, I'm having trouble finding the part where this guy says he endorses Thermite magic bombs and believes in a controlled demolition.

Care to point it out?
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Old 26th February 2008, 07:54 AM   #234
maccy
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Well, I've sent him an email:

Originally Posted by me
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 14:49:39 +0000
From: "Matthew McIntyre"
To: astaneh@ce.berkeley.edu


Dear Dr Astaneh-Asl,

I am writing to draw your attention to some conspiracy theorists
attempting to use your work to justify their position on the 9/11 WTC
collapses. Their basic argument seems to be that you are claiming that
steel melted and therefore you contradict the NIST report. The
implication is that the melting of the steel that you report cannot
possibly have been caused by the fires in the buildings - and so
something else must have caused this. These particular conspiracy
theorists lack the intellectual courage to state what this "something
else" is; their tactic is just to jump up and down and shout "anomaly"
as if that proves something (a tactic they share with intelligent design
advocates and Holocaust deniers).

Anyway, the discussion thread where your work is being discussed is here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=107390

(it is a thread on the forum run by the James Randi Educational Foundation)

And this is the conspiracy theorist post that inspired it:

http://911blogger.com/node/14062

If you have anything to say about either of these, I will happily post
your statement on the JREF forum thread. Alternatively, you could join
the forum yourself by going to http://www.internationalskeptics.com.../register.php?

If you wish to comment on the 911blogger.com article, you'll have to
join that site yourself.

I'll fully understand if you don't want to get involved with any of
this (I rarely bother engaging with a movement which is now, to anyone
who can be bothered to do a little research, evidently deluded) but I
thought you would appreciate the opportunity to correct this
misrepresentation of your work.

Your sincerely,

Matthew McIntyre
I've included my postal address and telephone number as well.

Edit: Oops - missed this:

Originally Posted by Panoply_Prefect View Post
I wrote him too, including links to this thread.

Cheers,
P

Last edited by maccy; 26th February 2008 at 08:00 AM.
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Old 26th February 2008, 08:03 AM   #235
Sizzler
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Originally Posted by [X] View Post
Then reply honestly.
Say you are involved in the truth movement, but are actually trying to find real answers, whatever they may be.

If you go this route, be honest with him and yourself, and do not attempt to twist his words. Do not go about jumping on the one odd statement and using it to attempt to discredit a reliable study. Do not go around ignoring things just because you do not understand exactly how the researchers arrived at their conclusion.
Instead, accept the conclusion drawn from the facts, and don't go looking for obscure points to nitpick on so you can keep going with a convoluted fantasy which raises many questions and answers none.

He may or may not reply, and if he does it may well be a very curt analysis of what he thinks of the truth movement, but at least it's honest.
And I kind of feel he deserves to know, having already replied.
Instead of posting an equally annoying reply, I'm going to quote mine your reply for unbossy sentences and take the advice to heart.

ps, ignore the sarcasm...
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Old 26th February 2008, 08:11 AM   #236
WildCat
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Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
If I were a truther,
"If"?
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Old 26th February 2008, 08:13 AM   #237
Sizzler
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
"If"?
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Old 26th February 2008, 08:47 AM   #238
BenBurch
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
Those aren't his findings. Nice quote mining though.
Which RedIbis knows is a form of lying. Like all Truthers, he is intentionally lying here.
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Old 26th February 2008, 09:00 AM   #239
stateofgrace
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Somebody asked earlier in this thread " Is this what the truth movement is reduced to ? "

Having read this thread, the answer is yes. They are reduced to utter desperation, they have failed completly to have their theories endorsed by anybody other than those who really could not care less. A fringe group driven by nothing other than blind faith and dreadful " research".

This thread above all others shows what a laughing stock they are and the underhand methods they use to sell their insanity to others.

I feel that the email reply from this well respected researcher very telling. Go away and grow up, was the message.

The saddest part of all is they won't, they will continue to scream and shout and dismiss all that simply destroys their theories.

Oh how proud they must be.
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Old 26th February 2008, 09:00 AM   #240
ElMondoHummus
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Oh, for the love of God, people, do we really need to email this poor guy so much? What we all need to know from Dr. Astaneh-Asl is already included in 1. His published research, 2. His email to Dr. Greening, and 3. The interviews already conducted with him.

If there's any ambiguity to what he says, it's perceptual ambiguity imposed by careless readings of and divorcing of context from his work. What he's said and written needs to be studied as a whole, not individual statements here and there extracted and put to use for purposes other than that which he originally meant them for. His work on the towers needs to be studied within both the temporal and situational contexts in which it was presented, not extracted to create false interpretations of his opinions (i.e. 9/11 Blogger, and his quote about the towers being "the best-designed building I have ever seen", an opinion he quite obviously abandoned later, after study of the design documentation). It cannot be used to nitpick elements contradictory to the conspiracy fantasy when it supports the overall concept of impacts plus fires lead to collapse.

Instead of seeking supposed clarification from him, clarification that should be unnecessary when you consider the context surrounding his various quotes, his work should instead be considered in toto, instead of in chunks of isolated statements devoid of context. That will show what he really thinks, and what he really thinks is that the fires brought down the Twin Towers. He has said as much.
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