|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
23rd June 2013, 09:19 AM | #41 |
Devilish Dictionarian
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,071
|
I discussed the resistance of WTC7 in the OP, and I point out that the interior collapse load overcomes it. Read the OP. Also, again I say this discussion is only about WTC7. No derails. If you wish to discuss WTC1 and 2 collapse progression, use the search function or index and find the appropriate thread: there are several.
|
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles |
|
23rd June 2013, 09:24 AM | #42 |
Devilish Dictionarian
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,071
|
|
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles |
|
23rd June 2013, 09:27 AM | #43 |
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,508
|
|
23rd June 2013, 09:53 AM | #44 |
Devilish Dictionarian
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,071
|
|
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles |
|
23rd June 2013, 10:05 AM | #45 |
Thinker
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 241
|
And as i have said..while i find the idea of a CD possible..i find it improbable based on a number of reasons. I am not however, an engineer nor an architect. I also don't have access to all the materials they have.
You however must also realize that the AE group has not been given access to the remaining materials for testing purposes. Nor were they given the technical data used for the simulations. In an open discussion, those items need to be available to both sides. Perhaps if they were given the information they want many of them would change their minds and drop the issue? |
23rd June 2013, 10:22 AM | #46 |
New Blood
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 16
|
|
23rd June 2013, 10:37 AM | #47 |
Devilish Dictionarian
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,071
|
|
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles |
|
23rd June 2013, 01:51 PM | #48 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,372
|
wrong, when he speaks of freefall, he said it did not happen. sunder - "the analysis shows a difference in time between a free fall time, a free fall time would be an object that has no...uh... structural components below it. And if you look at the analysis of the video it shows that the time it takes for the...17...uh...for the roof line of the video to collapse down the 17 floors that you can actually see in the video below which you can't see anything in the video is about...uh... 3.9 seconds............And you had...you had a sequence of structural failures that had to take place and everything was not instantaneous." so structural failures had to take place and everything was not instantaneous implies there should have been structural resistance throughout the whole fall and no instantaneous/freefall/g moment. true but what would the lead NIST investigator say about g. sunder - "And you had...you had a sequence of structural failures that had to take place and everything was not instantaneous." he equates freefall with instantaneous meaning there was NO structural resistance. of course. hum, it would be nice if they kept that steel so we could analyze that hypothesis. so are you saying "about g" like you stated above or "g". |
__________________
OPERATION GLADIO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio STRATEGY OF TENSION http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_of_tension OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird |
|
23rd June 2013, 02:16 PM | #49 |
Scholar
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 86
|
This is the essence: "the analysis shows a difference in time between a free fall time" - meaning: The entire collapse took longer than complete free fall would have.
He then goes on to explain what "free fall time" is, and why they also expected the collapse to take longer than a complete free fall. The original myth was that the entire building collapsed "at virtually free fall speed", which is what he seems to be addressing. |
23rd June 2013, 02:28 PM | #50 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,372
|
|
__________________
OPERATION GLADIO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio STRATEGY OF TENSION http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_of_tension OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird |
|
23rd June 2013, 02:37 PM | #51 |
Scholar
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 86
|
|
23rd June 2013, 03:02 PM | #52 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,372
|
but it hit "free fall" which means according to sunder that the building or a "object that has no...uh... structural components below it."
I get what you are saying but he was using averages. the orginal question dealt with the nist report claims 40% slower than freefall based on a single data point. after chandler brought up his math, nist had to break it up into 3 stages and low and behold.......free fall. and what did sunder say about free fall " a free fall time would be an object that has no...uh... structural components below it." from nist webpage: During Stage 2, the north face descended essentially in free fall, indicating negligible support from the structure below. This is consistent with the structural analysis model which showed the exterior columns buckling and losing their capacity to support the loads from the structure above. sounds like sunder slipped there don't ya think!! columns buckling is providing resistance and the model does not show "free fall." http://www.ae911truth.org/en/news-se...n-by-fire.html |
__________________
OPERATION GLADIO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio STRATEGY OF TENSION http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_of_tension OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird |
|
23rd June 2013, 03:58 PM | #53 |
Scholar
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 86
|
No, in the original context that is his definition of the time for a complete free fall.
NIST didn't "have to" break the collapse up in stages. They went beyond the scope of the report to add that section ("for discussion purposes"), but it didn't change any of their conclusions including the measured collapse time. No, I don't. The acceleration gradually increased and fluctuated g for a duration (what NIST calls "stage 2"), which just shows that at that point in time, the structural support(of the perimeter wall) would have been neglible, which is consistent with most of the internal structure having already collapsed and likely serving as an extra down-pull. If there was a slip on NIST's part, it would be that they went beyond the scope of the report in hope to clarify things about the collapse progression to people who do not understand the technicalities anyway. Hasn't this been discussed at great length already? |
23rd June 2013, 05:30 PM | #54 |
Devilish Dictionarian
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,071
|
NIST, sunder, etc. are not germane to the OP, Senenmut. I show there that freefall is no more proof of a controlled demolition than not-freefall, therefore there was freefall or not is not proof of CD according to the OP.
If you disagree, please show your work. References to experts and other prior work will not make your case. Facts and reasoning will. If it helps any, I believe NIST was wrong to state there was any set period of freefall, because there is no proof that there was constant freefall. This is stated in the OP. Feel free to go to the femr2 thread linked to in the OP for plenty of research material on what the actual acceleration profile looked like, and none of the detailed profiles there (including the NIST profile) look like a step function: instant, constant free fall. |
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles |
|
23rd June 2013, 05:41 PM | #55 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,372
|
free fall is free fall. period. I don't think you understand the word. if there was resistance all the way down then what? if there was resistance all the way down then for x amount of feet NO RESISTANCE, then what. if there was resistance all the way down then for x amount of feet NO RESISTANCE then resistance again, then what?
ok? they did break it up after chandler called them out though didn't they? does the computer sim show free fall? your just making stuff up and have no forensic evidence (steel beams from those locations that show bucking and such). we can watch the vid showing the collapse but can only speculate to what is going on in the inside. neglible is resistance therefor sunders remark about "a free fall time would be an object that has no...uh... structural components below it" would be incorrect. are you going against the lead investigator of wtc 7 from the NIST and say that resistance can = free fall along with physics in general? sure...sounds like some good spin to me. |
__________________
OPERATION GLADIO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio STRATEGY OF TENSION http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_of_tension OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird |
|
23rd June 2013, 05:50 PM | #56 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,372
|
it is proof of what sunder said:
"a free fall time would be an object that has no...uh... structural components below it." he is an "expert" considering he was the lead investigator for wtc 7. my reasoning in sound......free fall = no structural componets below it. but yeah, I agree with you that a controlled demo can be non FF or part FF or just about any combination of non FF and FF that one would like if you so desired in your construction of your demo. |
__________________
OPERATION GLADIO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio STRATEGY OF TENSION http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_of_tension OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird |
|
23rd June 2013, 06:00 PM | #57 |
Devilish Dictionarian
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,071
|
Great, take it up with Sunder.
Great, take it up with Sunder. This is incorrect. Freefall can also mean that forces resisting are equaled by forces pulling plus the affect of gravity. If you disagree, show your work. That's nice, I don't care what CD can be, although I think you'd be hard pressed to find CD's that are above FF, since that means the interior is collapsing first, although there are examples. I think one was the Hudson building in Detroit. Have fun playing around, freefall CD won't disprove that non-CD can also be freefall. |
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles |
|
23rd June 2013, 06:01 PM | #58 |
Devilish Dictionarian
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,071
|
|
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles |
|
23rd June 2013, 06:25 PM | #59 |
Student
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 30
|
I notice you quote Sunder alot, Senemut. So do you agree with his overall assessment on the collapse of building 7?
You also seem to think that the 2,5 seconds of freefall NIST measured was constant and not fluctuating, this is why NIST introduced the word "average" into their assessment of stage 2 because it may have been possible for "faster than freefall" being measured. May the more educated correct me if I am wrong about these two points but this is what i gathered from reading their report. Correct me if i am wrong Senemut but by your understanding of freefall; are we to take that 8 floors just disintegrated into dust and offered no resistance? How much explosives would be required for that? If so what material would have been powerful enough for that? Remember that this material must not cause any loud sounds and completely destroy 47 columns in a matter of a millisecond(well at least according to your understanding). |
23rd June 2013, 06:33 PM | #60 |
Devilish Dictionarian
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,071
|
|
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles |
|
23rd June 2013, 06:44 PM | #61 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,372
|
|
__________________
OPERATION GLADIO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio STRATEGY OF TENSION http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_of_tension OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird |
|
23rd June 2013, 07:00 PM | #62 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,372
|
|
__________________
OPERATION GLADIO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio STRATEGY OF TENSION http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_of_tension OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird |
|
23rd June 2013, 07:22 PM | #63 |
Devilish Dictionarian
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,071
|
|
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles |
|
23rd June 2013, 07:24 PM | #64 |
Devilish Dictionarian
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,071
|
|
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles |
|
24th June 2013, 04:54 PM | #65 |
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Earth
Posts: 4,473
|
Correction
I would like to make a correction to the incorrect data appearing in post #28.
Migraine is my only excuse for saying 9 video frames. By my measurement, it should have been 30 video frames or 1 second. 5503F and 5533F The video for the above composite shows the amazing vertical stability maintained during the WTC7 north and west face high speed collapse. The point of failure is on lower floors and out of view. In one fell swoop all vertical support across complete floors was removed in harmony (balance), and the whole tower dropped straight down as shown in the collapse videos. Any vertical resistance from the east or west side would slow the descent on the resisting side. This would be quite visible as a growing downward slope for the side offering the least resistance. Other than the classic controlled demolition roofline kink, I see no resistance to the drop offered by the east and west sides of the WTC7 tower. How do you get the vertical support for several whole floors to fail completely, rapidly and in unison? Office furnishings fires? MM |
24th June 2013, 05:44 PM | #66 |
Devilish Dictionarian
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,071
|
|
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles |
|
24th June 2013, 06:08 PM | #67 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,202
|
|
__________________
"I joined this forum to learn about the people who think that 9/11 was an inside job. I've learned that they believe nutty things and are not very good at explaining them." - FineWine "The agencies involved with studying the WTC collapse no more needed to consider explosives than the police need to consider brain cancer in a shooting death." - ElMondoHummus |
|
24th June 2013, 06:10 PM | #68 |
Devilish Dictionarian
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,071
|
|
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles |
|
24th June 2013, 11:51 PM | #69 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 18,667
|
Too esoteric. Sounds like you feel you'd need to insert magic there for a natural (non-CD) explanation. So your choice of wirds reveals an "argument from ignorance" logical fallacy.
Whole tower didn't drop "straight" down: - Much of the northwall that we see here dropped towards south (the kink is the result of the east-of-center portion shifting south the furthest) - Some wall section from the north wall (north-east corner?) dropped northwards so much that it landed on top of another highrise across the street, essntially destroying that building, Fiterman Hall, as you well know - Some wall section on the west side fell westward across the street and impaled itself into the Verizon bldg wall MM, why do you repeat the long-debunked, false claim that "the building" dropped "straight" down (i.e. "into its footprint")? Haven't I told you often enough to please not lie? |
25th June 2013, 09:01 AM | #70 |
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Earth
Posts: 4,473
|
The video for the above composite shows the amazing vertical stability maintained during the WTC7 north and west face high speed collapse. The point of failure is on lower floors and out of view. In one fell swoop all vertical support across complete floors was removed in harmony (balance), and the whole tower dropped straight down as shown in the collapse videos. Any vertical resistance from the east or west side would slow the descent on the resisting side. This would be quite visible as a growing downward slope for the side offering the least resistance. Other than the classic controlled demolition roofline kink, there is no observable resistance to the drop offered by the east and west sides of the WTC7 tower. I have read your OP. You ignore the requirement for the columns at the bottom to break in unison in order to achieve the balanced drop shown clearly in the WTC7 collapse videos. There is really no point in nitpicking about whether WTC7 was dropping at freefall, or just merely close to freefall. A redistribution of the load requires time. For your belief to hold water, the load was redistributed and overcame all the WTC7 perimeter columns so fast that the roofline did not tilt during this drop. Column 79, which according to the NIST's hypothesis supposedly initiated the collapse, was located toward the eastern end of WTC7 and not at its center. A load redistribution spreading outward from that location, to do what you suggest, would require the east side perimeter columns to stand firm, wait until the distant west side columns were overloaded, and then all fail at the same time. Not to mention the north and south perimeter columns. Such an amazing coincidence of failure is quite absurd. Without human intervention to make it happen synchronously, WTC7 could never have dropped in the manner observed. MM |
25th June 2013, 09:59 AM | #71 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 26,122
|
Wow, you are using the visual method of woo. The interior is gone many seconds before, you are watch the facade fall. Don't worry, you are using the video, when you need to use math and physics. Failure is your only product, 12 years will be soon, and you will have nothing but failure to show. Good job.
|
25th June 2013, 10:16 AM | #72 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,046
|
|
25th June 2013, 10:19 AM | #73 |
Master Poster
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,847
|
Originally Posted by lexicon008
|
__________________
DoYouEverWonder - Engineers and architects don't have to design steel buildings not to collapse from gravity. They already conquered gravity when they built it. - Professional Wastrel |
|
25th June 2013, 10:56 AM | #74 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 34,249
|
Indeed, "some whiz" would need to have already done so in order to determine how much resistance there was, and would need to have analysed how much would be expected, before being able to describe it as "so little resistance" with the slightest shred of intellectual honesty or respectability.
But I'm sure you were about to show your working. Dave |
__________________
There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021 |
|
25th June 2013, 11:00 AM | #75 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 34,249
|
Yes, he made an inexact statement. It would have been more correct to say that free fall would imply an object that has no structural components supporting it, as -for example - unconnected structural elements far below an object would clearly have no effect on its rate of acceleration. Not being a conspiracy theorist, I choose not to pretend that the laws of physics be revised whenever an expert mis-speaks. What's your preference?
Dave |
__________________
There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021 |
|
25th June 2013, 11:03 AM | #76 |
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,508
|
Exactly.
Discussion of free fall is nothing more than an attempt to distract. The speed of the collapse proves the resistance the lower floors should have provided was not provided. Something removed that resistance. Period. Then there is the evenness of the entire building's fall. Damage, especially fire damage is slow and helter skelter chaos. The WTC7 collapse was swift and smooth as silk. |
25th June 2013, 11:12 AM | #77 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 34,249
|
The irony is that you neither know the speed of the collapse, nor the speed at which the collapse should have occurred. How you manage to discern that one is greater than the other is a complete mystery.
The reason conspiracy theorists first started to talk about free fall is that they could then assert that the resistance of the structure was zero, which seemed to them to indicate that the entire lower structure had been destroyed before the top blocks began to fall - something, incidentally, that's conclusively disproved by every video of every collapse, not to mention entirely unrepresentative of any controlled demolition. When it was shown that, overall, the rate of acceleration was nowhere near free fall, some tried to preserve the conclusion in the absence of the argument, and hence had to make up bald assertions like the one above, despite a complete absence of evidence. And yet every calculation of collapse times that doesn't invoke non-existent physics comes up with the same conclusion: the collapse times agree, to well within the uncertainties of measurement and modelling, with expected collapse times. Dave |
__________________
There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021 |
|
25th June 2013, 11:28 AM | #78 |
Devilish Dictionarian
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,071
|
I highlighted for you words that only serve to emotionally frame how you are looking at this. This is a science and engineering problem, see how different it looks when you don't exercise hyperbole in your descriptions.
You still don't get it. The load overcomes the resistance. Throughout the descent of the exterior that dynamic changes. Sometimes the resistance is greater, sometimes the load. Therefore you have an acceleration curve that changes. Look at the acceleration curves in the FEMR2 thread. See above. What the heck is a classic controlled demolition roofline kink??? The kink is because the inside is dropping, it's tenting the exterior wall inward. The wall is resisting the pull due to the moment frame holding it together. I leave it out because it doesn't matter for the freefall argument. Great! Now stop mentioning freefall as evidence. Convince your truther buddies too! How much time is that? Sure, why wouldn't it have happened this way from the collapse? You think? Show your work. You think? Show your work. There's that framing again. Not shown by you. Do some work to prove it. Thanks for the attempt at an effort, better luck next time. |
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles |
|
25th June 2013, 11:31 AM | #79 |
Devilish Dictionarian
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,071
|
|
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles |
|
25th June 2013, 11:35 AM | #80 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,748
|
|
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|