|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
9th January 2014, 08:44 AM | #121 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,794
|
Honestly.
So aluminum sheeting wouldn't be shredded by the two sharp steel knives it impacted on each column? What kept the jet together long enough for the wing to "pull" the denser, thicker, stronger steel inwards? According to the official story the wings disintegrated as they cut through the tower, which means at the point the engines entered the building, the wing tips weren't even attached to the rest of the plane, yet we don't see them bounce off, we see them continue at the same speed as the rest of the plane. I guess in Randi world the wing tips carried the mass of the jet whether or not they still were attached? Can you explain that to me? |
9th January 2014, 08:51 AM | #122 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,396
|
|
__________________
"There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Let your ears hear this beautiful song that's hiding underneath the sound," Ed Kowalczyk. |
|
9th January 2014, 09:03 AM | #123 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,748
|
|
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
|
9th January 2014, 09:10 AM | #124 |
Man of a Thousand Memes
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 6,474
|
|
__________________
"There is no special treatment for guns." ~WildCat, confirmed gun owner. |
|
9th January 2014, 09:21 AM | #125 |
Scholar
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 121
|
So, I've got a question involving that whole aluminum vs. steel business.
So, ice is softer than steel, correct? Therefore, by "no-planer 'logic,'" there is no way ice could make a hole in steel plate, right? So, does that mean that believe in the "no-plane theory" of 9-11 also believe in the "no-iceberg theory" of the Titanic? |
9th January 2014, 09:44 AM | #126 |
I would save the receptionist.
Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 28,352
|
|
__________________
I have the honor to be Your Obdt. St L. Leader |
|
9th January 2014, 09:44 AM | #127 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Spain
Posts: 3,692
|
Why are you worried about the aluminium sheeting? The aluminium alloy that makes the wing spars and was behind the sheeting is much stronger. Let me quoting the WP article again so it hopefully sticks:
Aluminium alloys are used extensively in aircraft due to their high strength-to-weight ratio. On the other hand, pure aluminium metal is much too soft for such uses, and it does not have the high tensile strength that is needed for airplanes and helicopters. Polaris already answered that in a wonderfully concise way. The wing tips carried their own mass. In one of the frames of a video, I see one of them clearly behind its initial position, i.e. bent backwards. Unfortunately we don't have a high speed camera closeup of the wing impact, for obvious reasons, so inferring such details from any of the footages is risky to say the least. Why does that matter? The kinetic energy (which is what breaks atomic bonds, not weight) of the plane was in the order of 1t of TNT, and a FEA has proved how that cutting is produced. You can get information on that here: http://web.mit.edu/civenv/wtc/PDFfil...t%20Impact.pdf Because it doesn't matter. That's an accelerant but doesn't change the fact that water does cut through steel. And through stone; there are many natural examples like http://utahpictures.com/images/Zion3...rStoneZion.jpg To break the chemical bonds that keep the steel together, you need energy. That energy can come from many possible sources, one of them being kinetic energy due to mass and velocity. These two properties are what enable planes and water to cut through steel. Your turn. Why does the weight of the steel matter here, other than as an argument that favors inertia and thus cutting? Why are you neglecting to take into account the energy of the impact, which is what breaks chemical bonds? Why do you neglect to take into account the spars that were behind the sheeting as if the sheeting was the strongest structural member of the plane? Dodge in 3... 2... 1... |
9th January 2014, 10:12 AM | #128 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,794
|
Oh really.
Here's a closeup of the far right of the gash showing westward bends: How much mass was in the wing tip at that point? Was there any fuel left? What is your calculation of the momentum of the wing tips? How is the east-west damage consistent with a north south impact of a wing tip no longer attached to the rest of the jet? |
9th January 2014, 10:13 AM | #129 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,794
|
|
9th January 2014, 10:22 AM | #130 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,396
|
Yes, really.
Yeah, it shows where the wing of an airliner piloted by a terrorist monster entered the building at high speed. However much mass is in the wingtip of a nearly fully-fueled Boeing 767. Yes there was fuel left - we all saw it explode live on TV. It's not - the wing tip was still attached to the rest of the plane at the time. |
__________________
"There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Let your ears hear this beautiful song that's hiding underneath the sound," Ed Kowalczyk. |
|
9th January 2014, 10:28 AM | #131 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,794
|
Other than the fact a mostly hollow aluminum plane would have been shredded like a head of iceberg on a lettuce slicer, I can't think of anything.
No wait - how about that even if they were super-duper reinforced steel-slicing jets that were somehow still light enough to fly at 500 MPH 1000 feet above seal level, they are not noted for turning on a dime, so missing the target was quite likely? Naah...despite the damage evidence and the proof of the last 12 years of torture, war and loss of liberty, a jet is the obvious answer. Nothing to see here, everyone back to work. |
9th January 2014, 10:29 AM | #132 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 19,258
|
|
9th January 2014, 10:36 AM | #133 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,794
|
|
9th January 2014, 10:39 AM | #134 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,396
|
You conveniently ignore the part about the 767 being anything but mostly hollow, particularly WRT the wings.
Following your incredibly faulty logic, the picture below should not be possible because everybody knows wood isn't stronger than concrete: http://codyrapol.com/cri1.1/2011/05/...do-560x372.jpg |
__________________
"There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Let your ears hear this beautiful song that's hiding underneath the sound," Ed Kowalczyk. |
|
9th January 2014, 10:59 AM | #135 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,794
|
|
9th January 2014, 11:04 AM | #136 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 19,258
|
This is the Educational forum.
There's been any number of instances where the impetus towards education has been provided, yankee. Try it, you might like it. |
9th January 2014, 11:05 AM | #137 |
Troublesome Passenger
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 21,844
|
|
9th January 2014, 11:05 AM | #138 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,748
|
|
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
|
9th January 2014, 11:42 AM | #139 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 27,712
|
|
9th January 2014, 11:47 AM | #140 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,748
|
|
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
|
9th January 2014, 11:55 AM | #141 |
Devilish Dictionarian
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,071
|
|
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles |
|
9th January 2014, 12:09 PM | #142 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 19,258
|
.
I was talking to (more listening than talking ) to Darryl Greenamyer's uncle at Darryl's supersonic speed record flights at Mudd Lake Nevada in 1977. His uncle told me he was on the battleship USS Missouri in an AA gun emplacement when this kamakaze hit the side of the ship. One of the guns in the Zero went into the barrel of one of the 40mm cannon in the gun he was crewing. |
9th January 2014, 12:17 PM | #143 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 10,589
|
|
9th January 2014, 12:19 PM | #144 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,830
|
|
__________________
Facts are simple and facts are straight, facts are lazy and facts are late, facts don't come with points of view, facts don't do what I want them to. ************************** Apollo Hoax Debunked |
|
9th January 2014, 12:51 PM | #145 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 10,589
|
|
9th January 2014, 02:39 PM | #146 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 2,097
|
|
9th January 2014, 02:44 PM | #147 |
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Wales
Posts: 31,398
|
yankee451 - you need to look up the concept of "impulse". This will explain how a soft lead bullet can penetrate a much greater mass of harder steel, or how a human hand can smash a stack of bricks. Wiki would be a good start, and Newton's 3rd law comes into play.
Ever noticed how you can lean a teaspoon quite hard on a soft-boiled egg and the shell doesn't crack, but if you give the egg a sharp but light tap the shell will break? Time in which to react or flex..... Think time. |
__________________
"There ain't half been some clever bastards" - Ian Dury |
|
9th January 2014, 03:12 PM | #148 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,794
|
These are the knife edges I refer to:
According to the NIST this is what happened: But according to the swept-back construction of the wings, they would have struck in a wedge-motion (not at right angles). So the NIST is clearly wrong. Furthermore, they didn't consider the construction of the columns which the wing would impact one column edge at a time, sequentially from the fuselage-out: Considering the steel slicing nature of wings: It's obvious to a barnyard animal a southbound jet would not cause westward bends: |
9th January 2014, 03:57 PM | #149 |
Scholar
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Hutt Vegas, NZ
Posts: 112
|
|
9th January 2014, 04:03 PM | #150 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 9,071
|
Not to mention but for many years gentleman wearing 30-60 pounds of iron and steel plate armour started to find that unruly common folk were using gunpowder to fire a half ounce piece of lead though their expensive and non protecting suits....which is why they stopped wearing them....
So how does soft lead penetrate hard iron and steel? lol |
9th January 2014, 04:05 PM | #151 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 19,258
|
Here's a couple of 8x10 glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one, illustrating some of features of the WTC 2 crash.
I'm expecting this just be another addition to the file on "American Blind Justice", but... The paragraph on the back of each one.. Image the first... the ejecta from the plane's collision with WTC-2. The path of the plane from right to left in the image... and the parts of course continuing on to the left. Image the second... the paths of the plane into the building and the parts from the plane leaving the building. Image the third... a couple thousand pounds of congealed hologram of the motor that went to Murray Street. |
9th January 2014, 04:32 PM | #152 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,794
|
Don't lets forget the hologram of the wall panel. All 24 bolts top and bottom were snapped simultaneously, as well as the 192 bolts connecting the spandrel plates side to side, but the alleged jet depris had so much power that after snapping all those bolts it propelled the 4 ton steel wall panel 700 horizontal feet while falling 1000 feet to gently land on the ground without shattering the sidewalk.
That's some kind of magic loogie. |
9th January 2014, 04:40 PM | #153 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 19,258
|
|
9th January 2014, 04:43 PM | #154 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,794
|
|
9th January 2014, 04:54 PM | #155 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 19,258
|
|
9th January 2014, 04:55 PM | #156 |
A Little Ugly on the Side
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: They call it the Earth (which is a dumb kinda name)
Posts: 6,844
|
|
__________________
The Three Word Story Pledge of Allegiance- "I Hereby swear upon Engelbert's grave that I will gallop, not stride run, not walk posting three words on Shemp's honor, honoring: bananas, dwarfs, clarinets, [the 7th naughty forum word], haggis, Batman, nuns, wombats until such time as I'm sober. Or dead." "Some people have a way with words, other people...Um...Oh...Uh, not have way." -Steve Martin |
|
9th January 2014, 04:59 PM | #157 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,278
|
|
__________________
The poster formerly known as Redtail |
|
9th January 2014, 05:43 PM | #158 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,794
|
|
9th January 2014, 05:47 PM | #159 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 9,071
|
|
9th January 2014, 05:49 PM | #160 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,794
|
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|