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10th January 2014, 01:24 PM | #281 |
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So I'm going to tell you what the facts are, and the facts are the facts, but then we know the truth. That always overcomes facts. |
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10th January 2014, 01:28 PM | #282 |
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Frankly I'm sorry to the OP and to the staff members that wound up having to clean the portion of the mess I made in the debate. I'd just seen this no planes argument since 2008 and contrary to the tone that the op sets none of the actual arguments are new. And they're wrong. If he wants to believe they made live holograms then maybe it would serve better to prove that argument beyond reasonable doubt as opposed to reciprocating the snipes. Otherwise I hardly see value in the thread either as an instrument for the op or as way to critique a topic that's been repeated.
In most respects I don't think more commentary is really needed unless the op is taken more seriously... not that I personally believe the no planes idea really can be taken that way |
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10th January 2014, 01:39 PM | #283 |
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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10th January 2014, 03:27 PM | #284 |
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10th January 2014, 03:28 PM | #285 |
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So I'm going to tell you what the facts are, and the facts are the facts, but then we know the truth. That always overcomes facts. |
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10th January 2014, 03:32 PM | #286 |
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10th January 2014, 03:52 PM | #287 |
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Truthers only insist that there must have been some sinister purpose behind [WTC7] because they already think there's a sinister purpose behind everything. -Horatius |
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10th January 2014, 04:07 PM | #288 |
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You've noticed it Whooshed right over his head. It is saddening over the years of watching this stuff to see noobs come in and pick up on the conspiracy parts only. The actual reasons are fully and properly explained, and have been for 13 years now, and one would expect an intelligent observer to be capable of fingering the fact from the bizarre off-the-wall fictions, but, as my aero prof would say, "Thinking is painful", so the easy way out of swallowing cockamamie is the path easiest taken by these shlemeils. And when their errors are dissected and corrected, invincibly ignorant properly describes them when they maintain their unsupportable positions. |
10th January 2014, 06:43 PM | #289 |
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So many idiots and so little time. |
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10th January 2014, 06:56 PM | #290 |
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So many idiots and so little time. |
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10th January 2014, 07:04 PM | #291 |
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Mister Earl: "The plural of bollocks is not evidence." |
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10th January 2014, 07:05 PM | #292 |
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While the tone of the comments is degrading and insulting... the content of several have explained how the materials would behave and it is consistent with the damage observed. Your statements and "beliefs" about physics and strengths of materials and energetic mechanical interactions have been shown to be incorrect.
The column bolts were not removed they sheared... and that would depend on how close the joint was to the impact mass. Some were very.. some were as much as 18' away. The staggered panels and the geometry of the plane and mass distribution account for the variety of facade and structural damage to the staggered panel system. It appears to me that you are hunting for some science... science which does not exist... to support your preconception that planes caused all the damage. You are way above your pay grade here. But don't feel bad, most people haven't a clue about such things either and their world view is informed by Hollywood FX. We've got a population which has been educated by TV and Hollywood rubbish... and I think that includes you Mr Yankee. |
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10th January 2014, 07:29 PM | #293 |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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10th January 2014, 07:54 PM | #294 |
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Why would you do that when your irrational belief is neither better nor worse than any other irrational belief about 9/11? Death rays, removed bolts, CDs, nano thermite, holograms, it's all a distinction without a difference. You're just sitting in a different car on the same crazy train, that's all.
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10th January 2014, 08:23 PM | #295 |
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In this scenario physics doesn't take on the total mass and weight of the building, but it does take on the full weight and mass of a fuel laden 757 flying over 500 mph crashing into a specific area of the building. Sharpness takes on a whole different perspective; Harder and more defined than a basketball..
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10th January 2014, 09:01 PM | #296 |
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10th January 2014, 09:11 PM | #297 |
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That is a measure of how low the standard of truther claims has fallen....and the debunker responses dragged down with them.
In the peak era of 9/11 internet discussions 2006-7-8 when there were quite a few 'genuine honest truthers' around all of those factors were routinely discussed as part of the need for a coherent complete explanation. The truthers and trolls we see today are all "single anomaly" focussed. And the expressions "genuine truther" or "honest truther" are oxymorons. Both Clayton and Ergo have occasionally asked sensible questions but AFAIK rarely gone to a second post stage of discussion and never to a third post of reasoned debate. |
10th January 2014, 09:21 PM | #298 |
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---------------------- Anything goes in the Goblin hut... anything. "Suggesting spurious explanations isn't relevant to my work." -- WTC Dust. "Both cannot be simultaneously true, and so one may conclude neither is true, and if neither is true, then Apollo is fraudulent." -- Patrick1000. |
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10th January 2014, 09:37 PM | #299 |
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The OP has a lie in the first sentence. It was flight 11, to say allegedly is wrong.
Next lie, the damage, a failed statement; damage proves it was a 767. Next lie, it does not eliminate a 767, it proves a 767. Next lie is the video, with continuous nonsense, debunks itself in 7 seconds. Then the web site, "tons" of gibberish, like this.
Quote:
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11th January 2014, 02:15 AM | #300 |
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Regarding the wings snapping off: As a pilot (including 757s and 767s), I don't think so. The wings are virtually "one" as they are "tied" together through/underneath the fuselage with the wing spar. And even if the wing spar were to "snap," the wings of the airplane would already virtually entirely be in the building in a swept back fashion within a nano-second longer than if they had not snapped at all, i.e., it would make no real difference. This is not to say you do not make some interesting points. And what I say does not disprove what is shown in you video. |
11th January 2014, 03:09 AM | #301 |
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Given that the wings and their fuel load have a lot of mass - i.e. wings will do much if not all of their own cutting through the perimeter columns - the actual differential force to cause wing separation/shearing will be much lower than some folk seem to be expecting.
Get your qualitative model of the free body physics right people. And - no I'm not about to do the maths. I said "qualitative". |
11th January 2014, 05:19 AM | #302 |
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Yankee,
I find it curious that aside from the sarcasm of some posters here, much of your theories have had the rug pulled out from under them... with sound science and engineering. Yet you refuse to accept these explanations. Why? Do you dispute the science? Do you understand that the columns were not fluid to be parted by the impacting jet parts and wedged east and west (even equally) as you assert? Do you understand how the bolts would be sheared from the lateral forces of the end plates moving past one another. You got one point correct.. the 4 bolts per column connection were inadequate to keep them together when subject to the impact of a fast moving plane. Have you seen the panels and perimeter columns in the debris pile? Where are the bolts? How did they get removed from thousands of perimeter columns? You don't think someone removed them as part of a CD prep do you? They were sheared... heads or shanks... or pulled through the column end plates... from forces of the column leverage. The weak link in the assembly. You are making up nonsense. Stop it and get real. |
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11th January 2014, 07:33 AM | #303 |
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I figured the such...regarding pilot david.watts explanation regarding penetration.
Now for some enjoyable reading that could maybe help shed som light on the physics of this, google: Mythbusters episode 61 - deadly straw - mythbusters results Google those exact words, and click on the site of those exact words. Very interesting. Plus the second myth listed made me laugh. (The chicken) And the one about plants might be worth a thread of its own in our paranormal section! Be sure to read viewers comments regarding the straw test, as some of the comments like the one ones about being wet, the newspaper, etc are most interesting. This might help you when contemplating the wings penetration. |
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11th January 2014, 08:36 AM | #304 |
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11th January 2014, 08:41 AM | #305 |
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This is sad to the point of hilarity.
"What caused the plane shaped hole in that building that just got hit by a plane?" Yeah that's one of the mysteries of the ages. You don't exactly need Occam's Razor to work through that one. Occam's Dull Butter Knife will suffice. |
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11th January 2014, 09:01 AM | #306 |
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11th January 2014, 09:42 AM | #307 |
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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11th January 2014, 09:55 AM | #308 |
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11th January 2014, 10:52 AM | #309 |
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The center wing box on the L-1011 Tristar. Each wing half is bolted to this structure with fasteners along the depth of the spars, and through the wing skins top and bottom to flanges along the opening. When this is assembled, it is ASSEMBLED! One of our Tristars had a wing on one side overpressured during a pre-acceptance fuelling test due to a relief valve remaining closed, and the wing pooched, and leaked all over the place. The customer turned down the option of a few cans of Stop Leak, and said they'd prefer a complete new part. And so it occurred! The airplane was placed in a special fixture, and the broken wing was -sawed- off just outside the fuselage. There was no other way to remove it! |
11th January 2014, 01:00 PM | #310 |
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11th January 2014, 01:41 PM | #311 |
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"I joined this forum to learn about the people who think that 9/11 was an inside job. I've learned that they believe nutty things and are not very good at explaining them." - FineWine "The agencies involved with studying the WTC collapse no more needed to consider explosives than the police need to consider brain cancer in a shooting death." - ElMondoHummus |
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11th January 2014, 02:00 PM | #312 |
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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11th January 2014, 02:56 PM | #313 |
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Agreed but - just to make sure:
This was the OP question: "What Caused the Plane Shaped Hole?" And we - most of us anyway - know that one characteristic of a plane is that it is plane shaped. So the obvious default hypothesis after filtering via Occam is "The plane shaped hole was caused because the building was struck by a plane shaped object. To wit - a plane." Now Yankee needs to rebut (at least) two premises viz: Show that a plane is not plane shaped; OR Show that the towers were not struck by a plane shaped object. (and the latter, IMO, is the correctly defined "set" - alternate suggestions welcomed) It was never out of his court - his claim - his burden of proof - despite the debating trick of framing the OP as "AQing" |
11th January 2014, 03:07 PM | #314 |
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11th January 2014, 03:11 PM | #315 |
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11th January 2014, 03:12 PM | #316 |
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11th January 2014, 03:14 PM | #317 |
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11th January 2014, 05:19 PM | #318 |
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No evidence supports any such thing. If it did you could demonstrate how the east-west damage is consistent with a mostly hollow aluminum aircraft with leading edges as sharp as a basketball traveling north-south.
Until any single one of you can demonstrate that, no we're far from done. But I get that desperate men do desperate deeds, so I fully understand why you'd rather make this about me. You have the floor, it's clean, I just wiped it with you lot. |
11th January 2014, 05:25 PM | #319 |
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I asked you before, who do I need to demonstrate this to? The fact you don't like the evidence does not make it false.
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ETA: Why do you keep saying it's not about you when you are the only one that believes what your saying? |
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11th January 2014, 05:32 PM | #320 |
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Not mostly hollow, the wings were filled with fuel and impacted the surface at a sweep back slant, and were carried on in by momentum, dragging their surface along the building structure and bending the building structure you are curious about transversely as the wings went in.
If you think the liquid in the wings didn't make a difference by the way, I suggest you hit yourself in the head with an empty milk carton, then try it again with a full one. This is all I am going to say on this thread, because I don't see any sign of you acknowledging real physics. I won't bother with responding to any snarky replies unless they begin to acknowledge reality. |
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