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31st March 2016, 09:17 AM | #41 |
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All analogies fail at some point. In this case the detail matters not a whit.
My question to you was would you feel better or worse under such circumstances? You simply dodged the question. Try answering it. ETA: You realise I could easily rewrite the analogy to accommodate your objections, right? |
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31st March 2016, 09:33 AM | #42 |
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31st March 2016, 09:46 AM | #43 |
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It is clear that what ‘Georgio’ posted was a request for you, Criteria, to answer to CaptainSwoop's "Ask him who flew the planes, ask him about passengers and crew."
You did not actually answer that - at all: Nothing in that reply contains an actual answer to "who flew the planes". Nothing in that reply contains an actual answer "about passengers and crew". So please, display the politeness you announced but didn't deliver, and give us, give Georgio, clear and undodging answers:
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31st March 2016, 09:57 AM | #44 |
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Which "chosen end"? That planes with people on board and in control of said planes were in existence and impacted the towers?
There is quite the abundance of evidence that there were flights known as Flt11 and Flt175 that loaded passengers, that radar follows these two aircraft until they fall off radar coverage (or are no longer corporeal objects distinct from ground clutter known as the radar skyline of NYC). So, let's dispense with a no planes at all scenario as being so bleedin' stupid as to not deserve discussion. If the contention is that something else flew into the towers then who flew/controlled (on board or remotely), those aircraft? whether or not they were large passenger filled Boeings, people did board large Boeings, and those people no longer exist to run and play in this world. Where are they? Better? |
31st March 2016, 10:09 AM | #45 |
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Bad analogy.
WRT 9/11, a better example would be where a Fire Marshall determines that a fire was caused by faulty electrical wiring and the medical examiner determines that a victim of the fire died as a result of smoke inhalation being criticized by someone (with no training in fire investigation or in forensic medicine) for not fully investigating the possibility that the fire was caused by spontaneous human combustion. |
31st March 2016, 11:15 AM | #46 |
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Agreed. Yours is better. But is the person criticizing the Fire Marshall disrespecting the victim? I'm not sure. They are disrespecting the Fire Marshall, certainly. I would say they are disrespecting the victim without knowing it. Assuming they are sincere in their misguided convictions, they think they are helping the victim's family, ultimately. Only after they have understood why their convictions are misguided can they make amends for this unknowing disrespect. That's the point I've been trying to make with abaddon, I think.
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31st March 2016, 11:27 AM | #47 |
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Westboro Baptist Church protests at funerals for servicemen and women who are KIA. Claiming their deaths are God's punishment for acceptance of homosexuality in the USA.
Are they disrespecting the dead? Do they believe they are disrespecting the dead? |
31st March 2016, 12:11 PM | #48 |
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31st March 2016, 12:14 PM | #49 |
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31st March 2016, 01:47 PM | #50 |
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I'm not evading the questions (even though I'm sure someone will pop up to tell me I am), I will answer them but first could you clarify exactly how this relates to what we're talking about?
Huh? I'm getting lost here. You say I didn't reply to your post, instead focusing on the ETA, but the post was to tell me to 'try answering' the previous post, which I did. The ETA was saying you could rewrite the analogy to include my objections, which you haven't done. As I say, I'll answer that when you re-write it. What am I supposed to be answering that I haven't answered? What have I cherry picked? I did! 'Worse' is a comparative adjective, The second 'worse' necessarily means more bad than the first 'worse' and the third means more bad than the second 'worse'. This is surely common sense in the context of the analogy; I didn't think it necessary to point out that I wouldn't ping back to feeling exactly the same as before by the time the second item in your list came along. I'm not comfortable with lumping people together into 'truthers' and treating people who think that the 911 victims faked their deaths and that there were no planes and stalk and harass the victims' family members in the same terms as those who think that there are things worthy of re-investigation such as the possible use of explosives or the possibility of a controlled demolition on 911 and who don't stalk and harass the victims' family members. |
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31st March 2016, 02:05 PM | #51 |
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31st March 2016, 02:23 PM | #52 |
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@jaydeehess - yes and yes to your questions about WBC. But who are the 'truthers' who should be viewed in the same terms? All of them whether they are a no-plane vicsim 'the victims all deserved to die because some of them were probably Jewish' or someone who, due to credulity and a lack of scientific training thinks there may be a reason to re-investigate the possibility of the use of explosives at WTC? That's what abaddon is saying and I disagree.
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31st March 2016, 04:31 PM | #53 |
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Of course they will, because you actively are doing so.
ORLY? What, then, is this?
Quote:
Are you now conceding that truthers DO actually further the victimisation of the bereaved? That they do render the bereavement not only worse but never ending? You replied only to the last of four lines. That is cherry picking. Why must you dodge answering the question with such semantic drivel? Why can you not simply state whether such events would make you feel better or worse? It is but a matter of degree. You are simply trying to distinguish between "more disrespectful" and "less disrespectful" as though the bereaved are out there with their "respect slide rules" making careful measurements so as to determine whether they should be more or less upset that truthers have made their lives miserable for yet another year. You seem quite content with this state of affairs. Needless to say, I find this callous attitude to be repulsive. |
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31st March 2016, 04:59 PM | #54 |
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31st March 2016, 05:05 PM | #55 |
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AS someone who was very anti-Lance during that whole Lance Armstrong thing, I know a thing or three about being on the receiving end of internet mobs accusing me of being a CTer, and being asked "why do I love cancer?" etc. etc.
Yet, even when I knew Lance was cheating, I don't really remember ever feeling imbued with idea that I was "smarter" than anybody else. I just felt that the pro-lance crowd had looked at the facts and drawn the wrong conclusion. In short, Georgio has a point. Don't get me wrong, I would definitely say a overwhelming majority of people who take the time to come here to this site are exactly how you describe them to be. |
31st March 2016, 06:08 PM | #56 |
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31st March 2016, 06:11 PM | #57 |
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My sympathy. And multiple experiences over the past 5-6 years support your prognosis of circling.
When the real situation is "shades of grey" and often "multiple interacting shades of grey" is is well nigh impossible to get reasoned response from either side because both want the scenario to fit their oversimplified "black or white". And "winning the point' wins over "understanding". The most frustrating barriers to reasoned discussion I see are two "memes": 1) "Truthers are always wrong" - even if a truther says 'The cloudless daytime sky is blue' by definition the truther is wrong therefore that assertion must be wrong. 2) "Bazant is always right" - despite co-authoring papers which apply "crush down crush up" 1D simplifications to WTC. Again - my sympathy. I agree there can be shades of grey. And multi factor scenarios...and.... Stick to your guns - don't concede BUT also don't waste energy. Simply withdraw after the second time round the same circle of derailing evasion. |
31st March 2016, 09:09 PM | #58 |
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31st March 2016, 09:37 PM | #59 |
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As I said, recognizing WBC as being disrespectful of the dead and their survivors, is easy. Its quite plainly obvious that they care nothing about the deceased. Not a whit. WBC simply sees the funeral as something they can use, a venue at which they can spew their toxic world view.
While not at the level of indecency of WBC, many in the 911TM demonstrate a similar agenda. Starting with a world view that expects, even demands, that extreme events be orchestrated by unseen powers, they are using 9/11 to push that world view. I find it unsurprising that many people see this as disrespecting of the dead. |
3rd April 2016, 05:46 PM | #60 |
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3rd April 2016, 05:54 PM | #61 |
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Dodge duly noted.
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3rd April 2016, 06:28 PM | #62 |
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Please clarify: Are you asserting that nothing is "currently known to be true about" whom, or what, guided the four aircraft in question, and the passengers?
Or do you claim that it's merely you who doesn't currently know anything at all about whom, or what, guided the four aircraft in question, and the passengers? |
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3rd April 2016, 07:12 PM | #63 |
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You don't know who flew the jets? Big clue, the terrorists did.
Due to testimony from flight crews, the cockpits were breached, and the terrorists were flying the planes. The planes were hand flown into targets, or flown by hand with the autopilot; we have little knobs we can turn the plane,,, but it is easier to fly the in 3D with hands using the control column than the autopilots, unless you are level, which 175 was not, nor was 77, or 93; it is possible flight 11 was flown with the autopilots altitude hold engaged, and Atta,or his buddy flew the auto pilot by hand, aka the tiny turn knob... hand flying is easier can can be more precise - don't believe me, I only have thousand of hours in heavy jets, and a total of 44 years of flying experience... Lucky for 9/11 truthers, no matter how much evidence free nonsense they post and support about 9/11 mocking the murder of thousands; no banning. you have to break the rules |
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4th April 2016, 04:37 AM | #64 |
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It does sound suspiciously like Ken Ham's "were you there?"- the useful creationist principle of equal uncertainty, by which any one person's guess at (or faith in) a chosen narrative is made equivalent to another's evidence for his. And it's no great leap from "I can't know" to "and neither can anyone else."
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4th April 2016, 05:12 AM | #65 |
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4th April 2016, 05:18 AM | #66 |
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4th April 2016, 05:35 AM | #67 |
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4th April 2016, 05:36 AM | #68 |
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4th April 2016, 08:36 AM | #69 |
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4th April 2016, 08:54 AM | #70 |
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Why do you support lies about 9/11; belief based on evidence free nonsense - the method of 9/11 truth for 14 years of lies.
An old discovery, evidence is ignored when falling for the lies of 9/11 truth. 9/11 truth prefers fantasy, make it up. Doing reality based research, banned in 9/11 truth fantasy-land. With 9/11 truth, simile is the spark for fantasy... Dan Rather has a simile, 9/11 truth builds a fantasy of BS. looked like - is a simile You built your beliefs, not on evidence, you built CD on a simile. And you supported your belief not with facts and evidence, but imagination. Ignoring engineering explanations, you add the fantasy of CD. You offer no evidence with your beliefs based on imagination and simile. Skip the engineering, it will spoil your CD beliefs. |
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4th April 2016, 09:01 AM | #71 |
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4th April 2016, 02:57 PM | #72 |
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Georgio, you are one of the few people here who I think has some integrity and not a game player.
Having said that, I believe you are being 'played', and like most people, you like being accepted. For me, the price of social acceptance here is too high. Regretfully, "speculation" is a waste of time in this forum because most members cannot restrain their childish incivility. For most here it is way more fun to mock and bait "twoofers". Frequently the gamers ask for speculation and then have a field day attacking the requested speculation because <drum roll>...it's SPECULATION! |
4th April 2016, 03:02 PM | #73 |
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4th April 2016, 04:05 PM | #74 |
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This is the stuff you post to support the lie, the fantasy of CD. You can't be banned for posting an opinion of CD based on simile from Dan the man, and lots of imagination.
You took a simile, added overwhelming woo you can't explain, and imagined there was CD. No big deal, you spread a lie based on imagination, mocking the murder of thousands. Don't get upset you offer no evidence and have to make up BS imagined about me. 9/11 truth believers are banned for breaking the rules. The truth answer based on evidence, for the OP. |
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4th April 2016, 04:55 PM | #75 |
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Sadly, yes, although I would change 'most' to 'many'. But, as you kindly hinted you understand, I'm not going to do that, and it's me you're answering, not them. I would like to know what your speculation is regarding who flew the planes on 911, with the advance understanding that it is speculation and nothing else.
See above. If you clearly state that it is speculation then these attacks, if they happen, can be completely ignored with impunity. |
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4th April 2016, 06:54 PM | #76 |
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Here is a brief speculative reply.
I do not question the belief that the planes were initially flown by their airline assigned crews. At some time prior to these flights, it is my belief that each plane was modified to permit independent, automated control. Once this was activated, the original flight crews lost complete control of each plane. At that point, each plane was under the control of whomever orchestrated 9/11. |
4th April 2016, 07:04 PM | #77 |
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lol, now that is some top notch evidence free fantasy speculation. Can't get more off the goal of education, critical thinking skills, and being a skeptic; being a skeptic is not usually producing failed fantasy.
Speculation wrong. FDR proves 77 and 93 were hand flown. Thus the billion dollar conspiracy speculation which would take hundreds to do... is BS, fantasy, and not what skeptics do. Plus, this is not a speculation forum, it is a facts and evidence forum - thus speculation is the opposite of the purpose of the forum - try critical thinking skills instead of making up lies - and conclusions based on evidence, not fantasy. You need to find a fantasy forum, where speculation is required, and appreciated. Spreading lies about 9/11, 9/11 truth's product. |
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4th April 2016, 08:49 PM | #78 |
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5th April 2016, 01:48 AM | #79 |
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Why didn't sny of the maintenance crews that work on these aircraft noyice all the extra modifications?
Commercial airliners are all identical, they have to be to get certified. Modifying them to fly automatically would involve extra hardware and changes to wiring and controls. Any extra hardware or changes would immediately be noticed by the crews who fly and maintain the planes, they are highly trained and experienced people, certified and qualified to work on specific types. Your plan would have to involve the crews. Why add this extra layer of risk and complication when you can get suicidal fanatics to crash the planes? Why go to the trouble and complication of crashing one of your modified planes in to a random field? |
5th April 2016, 02:13 AM | #80 |
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Criteria, you have stated that this is just speculation, and I will respect and acknowledge this by not asking for evidence of any of your propositions.
I am more interested in the origins of this speculation, the timeline if you will. Could you then tell me where these speculations came from? Was there something you noticed about the events of 9/11 that led you to form these ideas, which then led you to conclude that there was some sort of "orchestration"? Alternatively, did you start with an assumption of conspiracy (by persons other than members of Al Qaeda), and these speculations are a post hoc attempt to figure out how it was done? |
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