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5th April 2016, 02:26 AM | #81 |
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If someone does, you have good reason to ignore them.
For now, and within reason, what has happened is that people question how well that speculation matches reality. A speculation can't be right if it doesn't match reality. A speculation disconnected from reality is called a fantasy. I have speculated, for example, that some source of fuel that escapes our knowledge may have been present in WTC7. That in itself doesn't contradict any of the known facts about it. I don't give it any weight, because it's not provable with any data we have at the moment, but it's based on reality. However, when the speculation is shown to not have a basis on reality, the rational thing to do is drop it. Showing why a speculation is wrong is not remotely similar to telling you off because you have speculated. |
5th April 2016, 06:09 AM | #82 |
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5th April 2016, 06:13 AM | #83 |
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5th April 2016, 06:14 AM | #84 |
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5th April 2016, 06:16 AM | #85 |
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5th April 2016, 06:49 AM | #86 |
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I wasn't really commenting on the contents of your speculation. I've just seen people crying foul for the wrong reason, and I didn't want that to happen. I don't want to make any case on the subject yet. But some very good objections have been raised so far against the plausibility of your speculation (not against the possibility, though).
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5th April 2016, 07:08 AM | #87 |
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That is a tangential BS Gish Gallop... lol, the VW? lol - poor analogy.
The speculation of remote control lacks details, how it could be done; due to lack of knowledge of flight systems. The FDR shows the planes were hand flown, and there was no GPS on the planes, remote control would not be precise enough to hit the WTC. How did you speculate away the FDR, and the precision of hitting the WTC towers? How did the pilots miss the modifications; as a pilot I would reject the aircraft for flight if I see modifications not in the Tech data - your speculation fails before takeoff. The remote control is one of the top anti-intellectual claims made; all based on opinion and ignornace of flight systems, and flying procedures. |
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5th April 2016, 07:10 AM | #88 |
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Speculation, really?
Did we (Georgio; Captain_Swoop and myself) ask for speculation? Let's look at the context here, in full: On March 30, Captain_Swoop wrote to Georgio: To this, Georgio replied with a +1: On March 31, Criteria quoted Captain_Swoop's post - boldface added by Criteria - and replied: (My highlights). This implies that something "is currently known to be true about “who flew the planes”, “passengers and crew”." Not speculation! "Currently know to be true". I do not know if C_S and Georgio asked for speculation, or asked Criteria what he considers to be currently know to be true - but I did! Same day: See? I very clearly and explicitly ask about Criteria's conviction regarding what is currently known to be true. That is essentially the very opposite of "speculation". Here is Criteria's evasive reply, three days later: I asked for clarification the next day: Criteria completed the dodge 12 hours later: Let's parse this: "any factual information that you [i.e. me, Oystein] are not already privy to" - this hints that he has some factual information: The same (so he speculates ) that I have. And then Criteria shifts the goal posts away from "factual information" and towards "speculative opinion", of which he offers a hint, despite me not asking for it. And further moves the goal posts away from "Ask him who flew the planes, ask him about passengers and crew" and towards "WTC7". Finally, he labels my asking for what is currently known to be true about the planes and the passengers and crew a "silly game" - but now in the context of the goal post moved to talk about "speculativer opinion" about WTC7. Makes you wonder who is really playing a silly game here NoahFence half fell for the trap, as he replied: Regrettably, NF accepted both goal post shifts, although he kept track of the fact that we were asking about the planes, passengers and crew. And Georgio, too, half fell for the trap, as he quoted NoahFence and replied: Luckily, Georgio resisted chasing the goal post that was shifted to WTC7, but he allowed for the discussion to exclude "what is currently known to be true about “who flew the planes”, “passengers and crew”" (<- Criteria's words!!) and instead shift towards personal speculation. Criteria masterfully played the evasion to its end thusly: [1]: Playing up to Georgio; gaining trust through compliments [2]: Projection - accusing vaguely alluded to third parties of doing what Criteria just did himself (play games) [3]: Red herring - C_S's, Georgio's and my questions were never about social acceptance [4]: Remember that Criteria himself first offered his own "speculative opinion" when he was asked what, according to his own conviction, is known to be true, and worked hard to evade writing down such "factual information". [5]: Criteria complains that Georgio is playing on the goal posts that Criteria set himself! What deceitful trickery! I suggest that we insist that Criteria posts factual information, that he insinuates he has, concerning what is currently known to be true about “who flew the planes”, “passengers and crew” - after all, he first insinuated that something is currently known to be true about this. |
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Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote) The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton) Last edited by Oystein; 5th April 2016 at 07:17 AM. Reason: Names formatted blue; Exchanged "he" for name a couple of times |
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5th April 2016, 08:07 AM | #89 |
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How does that relate? VW was a software thing in engine management, not a physical thing on a few selected vehicles.
Modifying a commercial jet for remote control would involve obvious changes to the aircraft that would be seen by the engineers and technicians servicing and repairing the aircraft. Commercial jets have strict type approval. Any unauthorised modification would be picked up by the highly trained staff certified for the particular model. You demonstrate a lack of knowledge of the certification, maintenance and training regimes involved. |
6th April 2016, 02:25 PM | #90 |
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Let's take this from the top.
In the week following the 9-11 attacks, some members of the Bush NSC asked the DoD to update a plan to invade Iraq. This was in spite of the overwhelming evidence that Al Qaeda had carried out the attacks. The reasoning of the these Bush NSC members was that there was no way that Al Qaeda could have carried out the attacks without a state-sponsor, and Iraq was a terrorist clearing house in 2001. So, while the evidence continued to pile up pointing to Al Qaeda as the sole actor, where the pilots actually trained inside the US, and the hijackers lived among us for a time, these higher-ups continued to believe that Saddam Hussein had a hand in the attacks as well. Source: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...c/alqaeda.html What you have here is a bunch of people who did not believe the "Official Story" of 9-11, and found a way to act on their beliefs. To be blunt: The invasion of Iraq is the ultimate result of a branch on 9-11 Trutherism. Adding to the fun, Jihadists flooded into Iraq and Afghanistan crippled by the belief that 9-11 was staged to justify an invasion of two countries the US really didn't care about in August, 2001. 9-11 Truth has fueled murder in the Middle East and Central Asia with their lies. All the while they claim they are only looking for answers and justice while ignoring the blood on their hands. So no, I'm not patient with Troofers. |
6th April 2016, 03:08 PM | #91 |
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6th April 2016, 03:49 PM | #92 |
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When it comes to disrespect for the Dead,it's hard to beat the whole "Vicsims" routine.
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6th April 2016, 04:16 PM | #93 |
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Unlike the targets on 9/11 which were each iconic, world famous and full of thousands of potential victims, 7 World Trade Center was a virtually unknown and certainly unimportant building in which no one had died and which was not a target on 9/11. Its collapse had been expected at the time and the proximate reason for its collapse was known well before it even fell. Further, the loss of 7 WTC was of almost no significance given the greater events of that day.
And yet somehow you found this a compelling case for MHI? The mind boggles |
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6th April 2016, 04:39 PM | #94 |
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It is like 9/11 truth takes the dumbest possible path of most stupid:
7 WTC is the perfect McGuffin for 9/11 truth idiotic claims. Why not pick something dumber than dirt to build the inside job on. We have Larry saying Pull It, and a fringe few gullible followers of 9/11 truth (a name only Goebbels could love) calling it CD. And worse we have failed 9/11 truth followers taking simile to support CD, and they cite Dan "the man" Rather as inspiration. With no evidence for CD 9/11 runs into the fantasy world based on ignorance, mocking the murder of thousands. Speculation about 9/11, like remote control aircraft, and similar fantasy versions of 9/11 are mocking those murdered on 9/11. Remote control of four stock aircraft, which somehow end up with 19 terrorists on board, without the airliners and pilots knowing, a billion dollar plot involving thousands, is idiotic and proof ignorance is why the mocking takes place. |
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6th April 2016, 04:42 PM | #95 |
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I quite often get the feeling that Truther's get their entire understanding of the world via Hollywood movies.
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6th April 2016, 05:00 PM | #96 |
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Actually I'm going to go further then this. I quite often get the feeling that many of them believe that they are in a real life Hollywood movie, where they play the plucky hero, a Jason Bourne, Robert Langdon, or Angela Bennett, and just like in most modern time movies, the Government, or a group of people in the Government, is the bad guy and it's up to them, the plucky hero to uncover the sinister plot and save the day.
They live in a world where satellites can read car licence plates and follow you around all day, where remote controlling a plane is as easy as someone dressed as a airline mechanic plugging a black box into the plane's flight computer via a hatch in the bottom of its hull just before take off. They live in a world crafted not by physics and logic, but by a scriptwriter's pen that doesn't have to follow the natural laws or logic, just the whim of the story, yet they accept it all as real and incorporate it into their world view. Their world is one of Hollywood plots, science, and physics, and we keep seeing that repeated here time and again. |
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It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) |
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6th April 2016, 07:24 PM | #97 |
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7th April 2016, 02:10 AM | #98 |
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Quote:
It appears that you are saying that observing the collapse of WTC7, which was not hit by a plane, led you to conclude that all four planes used in the initial attacks some 7 hours previously were remotely controlled. Could you please clarify? I cannot for the life of me see how your observation leads to your conclusion (speculative though it may be). |
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7th April 2016, 05:31 AM | #99 |
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7th April 2016, 05:36 AM | #100 |
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7th April 2016, 05:39 AM | #101 |
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7th April 2016, 05:40 AM | #102 |
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7th April 2016, 05:41 AM | #103 |
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7th April 2016, 05:42 AM | #104 |
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7th April 2016, 05:49 AM | #105 |
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Always asking for proof and never providing any.
(proof I didn't provide any? ) Skeptics don't need tricks. We have reality. You people are the ones who need tricks to keep the conversations going. Why do you think terms like squibs, thermite, column 79, "free fall" and the like exist in these conversations? What happened on 9/11 is so simple a child can figure it out. As I said, I suspected collapse before they happened, because even I, as a lowly printer who doesn't even make 20 bucks an hour, knows that steel and fire aren't the best mix. |
7th April 2016, 07:36 AM | #106 |
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7th April 2016, 07:38 AM | #107 |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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7th April 2016, 07:56 AM | #108 |
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7th April 2016, 07:58 AM | #109 |
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7th April 2016, 09:17 AM | #110 |
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7th April 2016, 10:21 AM | #111 |
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WTC-7 is a case similar to why James Randi got into this business.
Think about it, a magician put on a show, and if he's good one or two people leave the show believing in magic. Why? Because they saw it with their own eyes. They didn't see behind the scenes. With WTC-7 all of the quality footage is the undamaged side of the building, so it looks like a perfectly sound structure collapsed. If we had footage from the other side there would be no mystery. |
7th April 2016, 10:34 AM | #112 |
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7th April 2016, 11:19 AM | #113 |
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Hey look at that, an entire column (#20) is missing completely on this only slightly damaged building that suffered a few tiny office furniture fires.
How odd. |
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7th April 2016, 01:34 PM | #114 |
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7th April 2016, 01:56 PM | #115 |
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I thought that this split thread was civil enough and interesting enough to be in the main section rather than in AAH. Moderators were so kind to move it after I asked. Please don't spoil that by engaging in personal attacks.
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7th April 2016, 02:06 PM | #116 |
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7th April 2016, 02:37 PM | #117 |
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7th April 2016, 03:14 PM | #118 |
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7th April 2016, 03:25 PM | #119 |
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Not if - there is a whole lot of empty where Column 20 should be. All that is required to confirm that is the gift of sight and a rudimentary idea of where the columns are located.
Clearly the loss of Column 20 did not cause the building to collapse since 7 WTC stood for 7 hours after 20's loss, nor is there any logical reason to expect that it should have. You may like to take the easy road out perhaps since it relieves the burden of having to think - that is the CT way - but real investigators don't. NIST did their job. Column 20 is not a critical column. Stop with this over-simplistic nonsense where you assume all columns are the same like you assume all buildings and all building fires are the same. You can not expect to be taken seriously that way. Some folks might even accuse you of trolling. Col. 20 was not a factor in collapse initiation. NIST said as much when they reported that physical damage to the south face from the impact of falling North Tower debris was not a factor in the collapse. That would include Col. 20 as the graphic above demonstrates now wouldn't it? |
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So I'm going to tell you what the facts are, and the facts are the facts, but then we know the truth. That always overcomes facts. |
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7th April 2016, 03:36 PM | #120 |
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