|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
2nd May 2016, 01:17 PM | #1 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,454
|
Skeptics meet AE911T at AIA Convention
OK, I've been sitting on this for 2 weeks now. I was hoping to have more feedback from AIA before disclosing it, but time is getting short.
As soon as I heard about Gage going to the 2016 AIA meeting, I placed a reservation on the booth next to his. The AIA conference people are holding that reservation, until they decide whether or not to approve my request. I think that they may be concerned about things getting out of hand. I've assured them that I will make absolutely certain that this is NOT going to happen. Any appearance or discourse I/we put in will be conducted with complete professionalism, dignity & civility. I will enforce that upon our people with unyielding will. And a 2x4, if required. If anything starts to get out of hand, even if it is not our fault, I've told them that I'd move our booth elsewhere. I've invited their representatives to come sit with us to observe the interactions. If it happens, we will be their guests, & I am adamant that we be civil. __ My intention is to rent a small living room. A couch or two, a couple tall chairs & a couple tall, small diameter tables. I intend to contact some experienced structural engineers in the Philadelphia area & invite them to come sit in this area and, along with me, to provide technical answers to Gage's nonsense. Coffee, soft drinks, pleasant music, comfortable environment. No stress. No crusade. Absolutely NO circus. Just quiet, competent answers to incompetent questions & assertions. I'd like to ask for some help from you guys preparing for this. 1) Suggestions on Visuals. I'm thinking absolutely minimalist. Just a small sign that says, "Ask us why these guys are wrong." Or some such... 2) One bit of info that I'd like to hand off is to chase down an updated collection of engineering literature that supports NIST's conclusions. Either directly, or indirectly by version of citing the NIST report. This will take a trip to the library, or having a subscription to a Citation Index. If anyone wants to sign up for this task, please let me know. 3) I'd like to get someone to produce a collation of the engineers who did contribute to the NIST report & a short bio & list of published papers. 4) I'd like to get someone to produce the same sort of list for AE911Truth engineers. 5) One direct component will be addressing each point on Gage's AE911Truth page of his tallied "evidence for CD". 6) I'm thinking of replicating Gage's "boxes", just so that I can explain what a useless, deceptive "model of the towers" it is. 7) I'd love to hear any suggestions from you guys, as to what you think would be a compelling, simplified organization of arguments. Remember, architects are not structural engineers. Some of them need help understanding the details, too. And there is a fair chance that some TV reporters might show up, as well. We'll need something "interesting" for them to look at. __ Finally, I'd also like to ask a little help in covering the costs. It'll put together a budget, but I believe that it'll be about $5K for the booth, probably about $1K for everything else. If anyone here knows how to start a fund like Chris Moore did for the Millette study, that'd be a great help. A note to Chris is probably a great start. (If someone wants to take on this whole task of organizing contributions, that be a HUGE help.) If you guys could pass around this note to anyone else who you think might want to contribute, that'd help as well. I'll cover anything not covered by contributions. __ NOTE TO ANYONE WHO CONTRIBUTES: Please keep a record (just a note to yourself), about how much you contribute. If, for any reason, AIA does NOT let me appear, I'll need some way to get your money back to you. |
2nd May 2016, 01:20 PM | #2 |
Muse
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 960
|
And how exactly do you propose to handle the myriad of other areas , all showing that this was the greatest ever False Flag ?
How many years rent of this "small living room " will you be taking ? |
2nd May 2016, 01:26 PM | #3 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 26,122
|
|
__________________
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" - Albert Einstein "... education as the means of developing our greatest abilities" - JFK |
|
2nd May 2016, 01:36 PM | #4 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 18,667
|
As for visuals, I'll ask Mick West of Metabunk if he can contribute his current model of collapsing floor slabs - either a video, or perhaps even the original. Check it out:
https://www.metabunk.org/towards-a-r...on-9-11.t7396/ |
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote) The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton) |
|
2nd May 2016, 01:48 PM | #5 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,748
|
I question if it's actually worth the expense or effort. AE 9/11 has gained no traction over the years and fact is they're slipping backwards.
Attention only appears to legitimizes their cause. |
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
|
2nd May 2016, 01:49 PM | #6 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 18,667
|
benthamitemetric composed a list last year of papers and other works that confirm, corroborate, draw upon, approve of NIST's findings re:WTC7 (building 7 alone):
https://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/com...terature_that/ I had a thread here about this list: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=287245 |
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote) The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton) |
|
2nd May 2016, 02:47 PM | #7 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 7,895
|
I can loan you some photos and explain what they are if you would like, You can find many on line.
Up to you, I can even explain how to do proper experiments into the chemistry and mechanics. |
2nd May 2016, 03:06 PM | #8 | |||
Graduate Poster
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,557
|
Suggestion for visuals:
This year's resolution, unlike last year's, is filled with conspiracy woo like this:
Quote:
Whenever I show it, I play it at 4X speed to make the sheer extent of the fires more apparent (but always explain that they are watching it at 4X speed, and why). Bookend the CNN footage with still shots of WTC 7 like these two, and the part of the text of the resolution shown above, and I think you've got it. If you want, you could add the Vince Dementri video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IssGRpcB_ms), and the Barbara Crowley interview(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EECOpibHJr0), though that might be overkill. The whole thing won't be more than 15 minutes, and you can loop it for continuous showing. So simple, even an architect can understand it. |
|||
2nd May 2016, 03:26 PM | #9 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
Posts: 20,849
|
|
2nd May 2016, 03:31 PM | #10 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
Posts: 20,849
|
Not sure if it fits your purpose tfk, but there is a generic description of collapse of the towers at
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ply&p=11224323 A collaborative effort, it's relatively short and deliberately easy to read. |
2nd May 2016, 04:41 PM | #11 |
The Clarity Is Devastating
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Betwixt
Posts: 20,891
|
I could show up there and help out, for the cost of some train tickets and an Expo-only pass. (Which I'd gladly cover.) I have no professional structural engineering or architect credentials to offer, though, so it might not be any help.
|
__________________
"*Except Myriad. Even Cthulhu would give him a pat on the head and an ice cream and send him to the movies while he ended the rest of the world." - Foster Zygote |
|
2nd May 2016, 06:19 PM | #12 |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,706
|
|
2nd May 2016, 06:26 PM | #13 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,454
|
|
2nd May 2016, 06:28 PM | #14 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,454
|
|
2nd May 2016, 06:29 PM | #15 |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,706
|
|
2nd May 2016, 06:32 PM | #16 |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,706
|
|
2nd May 2016, 06:42 PM | #17 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: nyc
Posts: 3,232
|
This is hysterical.... Back in 2009 when I ran into Gage and Tony at one of the truth events and was curious about how the towers collapsed. I wasn't up to speed on what the official explanation was and hadn't bothered to look at the structure and so forth. I chatted up Gage and he offered to let me participate in his weekly conference calls... I got sucked into helping him organize his group... the who thing was a mess in my opinion... But after a couple of months I realized it was just a marketing operation and they did no research and were simply pushing doubt of the official explanation in favor or CD. I actually offered to help them at the VA AIA convention where I ran into my second cousin who is an architect in DC. hahahaha. He was skeptical!
In the span of 5 months I was out after being asked to be and serving for a month or so as a board member.... and then sign a statement which was a litmus test... I refused of course. The whole experience was bizarre... inside a cult... from my desk. I sought my own answers after that and realized how nuts these people are... how unfounded in reality their beliefs are... how steeped in junk science and science denial... their views are. It's almost 7 years and they still are at it. It amazes me how in denial so many of them are... how far down the rabbit hole they've gone. I am not really into debunking and debating.... I am interested in understanding as much as I can. I think NIST was largely correct in all the broad strokes but maybe not in the details... especially how the thing went from stable and static to unstable and chaotic violent collapse. If this was during the week... I could drive down there and help out. It would drive down and help Gage and Tony who will probably be there as he's from South Jersey... will go nuts. But the whole thing sounds hysterical... It's worth seeing a video of it and I hope someone takes it. I think I can get a pass from a window company... and I am a licensed architect but not an AIA member. Message me if you think I can help... |
2nd May 2016, 08:06 PM | #18 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
Posts: 20,849
|
|
2nd May 2016, 08:14 PM | #19 |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,706
|
|
2nd May 2016, 08:26 PM | #20 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 26,122
|
|
__________________
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" - Albert Einstein "... education as the means of developing our greatest abilities" - JFK |
|
2nd May 2016, 08:36 PM | #21 |
Potsing Whiled Runk
Tagger
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 21,899
|
|
__________________
|
|
3rd May 2016, 12:21 AM | #22 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,454
|
Hey DG,
I hear what you're saying. There are valid arguments on both sides of the issue, but I must respectfully come down on the opposite side. For several reasons. Just because I write these reasons down does not mean I think that you're wrong, or you haven't thought of them. They are just the reasons that I find compelling to take the other path. I do NOT expect anyone to agree with all my reasons, or any of them, or to agree with my conclusions on the matter. This is like all multi-path forks in the road. Path A has one set of consequences. Path B has a different set of consequences, as does Paths C thru Z. There are no paths that have no consequences. Each of us chooses the path that we think is the best one. I've got zero problem with anyone choosing a different path than me.
And it's important that you don't alienate the same kids you're trying to save. As tempting as it is to go off on some resolute, determined moron, you try to leave them with the impression that "there's a reasonable person who thinks differently than I do." Not "what an a**h***." I've got faith in the young 'uns. Especially compared to us. We were hot messes when we were kids. Many of us have beaten long, long, long odds & turned into reasonable adults.* And, if you don't agree with me ... I'm going to hold my breath til I turn blue..!!! That'll show you.!! Tom *Although I have recently executed a dramatic downward revision in my estimation of my own generation's common sense, due to the embarrassing quality of the bozos that we've chosen to become ... ahem ... our "leaders". |
3rd May 2016, 12:48 AM | #23 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,454
|
O really???
Please. Enlighten me. Exactly what component of this damage does NIST say, "was not caused by the collapse of WTC 1"? What, in your estimation, did "NIST say" caused that damage? And please do, do provide a link to some original NIST source for this assertion. "... did not cause a complete collapse ..."?? What a moronic "observation". What, pray tell, is the point that you're trying to make? TWO skyscrapers fell on it. When they were done, 90% of the 22 story building was crushed to the street. 10% of it, the same 10% that was reinforced after the '93 bombing, which went off just about below the building, had 3 of its 22 stories still barely standing. What brain-dead, idiotic point is this supposed to make? Relevant to ... anything? By your idiotic assessment, NONE of those buildings "completely collapsed". ALL of them had pieces & parts, much taller than 3 stories, still standing. |
3rd May 2016, 03:49 AM | #24 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: nyc
Posts: 3,232
|
The problem with this excellent analysis is that the kids are not at the AIA convention.... only architects who largely don't care and only understand structure and engineering slightly better than laymen or scientists. If one wants to reach the naive who get hooked on AE911T's PR swill... you probably need a web site which is slick and easy to understand and mirrors AEs and refutes all their bullet points with slick easy to grasp explanation. You would also need a section to address the politics behind truthers... the issue of cults and brain washing and mass psychology... PR and so forth. People use Google and the www to inform their thinking. Face to face... and books are very old school as far as reaching young people. They are also not rigorous in looking into the bona fides of people who make claims on the www. Gage's PR machine is slick and it pulls in the naive for these reasons. You'll notice that few engineers even try to actively support truther claims... and by support I mean go into some level of detail... other than parrot talking points. Tony is one, Jon Cole is another... neither are structural engineers but both are intelligent and have engineering backgrounds. It's hard to understand their denial as many have tried to show them their flawed thinking. Gordon Ross, A structure PE, former outspoken truther has abandoned his truth stance and left the debate. But the most vocal are people who have no technical background.. Fetzer, McKee, Sarns, Griffin, Hoffman, Sofia Smallstorm, Balsamo, CIT guys, Loose change guys,Ted Walter, Steven Da'ak.... and others... Terribly misinformed and naive but very good at PR and make web sites and videos and echo chamber their ideas like crazy. My experience 7 yrs ago at AIA was that most don't buy the PR and few seemed interested. They go to fraternize and learn about products. |
3rd May 2016, 04:10 AM | #25 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,454
|
|
3rd May 2016, 04:24 AM | #26 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,454
|
|
3rd May 2016, 04:26 AM | #27 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: nyc
Posts: 3,232
|
Really Tom... I think Gage is not going to have any success with AIA and looks more and more like a quack.
Perhaps a web site... called 911 wholetruth which mirrors AE's site has complete resources... a forum populated by structural engineers, physicists, aviation experts... as mods or something... pluc anyone one else who wants to engage in technical discussions. Include the same vids that AE uses and with a completely different sound track and explanation...inserted graphics and gifs. It need not be a NIST type site but it should use some of their materials... FEMA and all the other reports and technical work in a reference section. It can draw from the debunker sites... I suppose. I've produced scores of slides for myself not intended for publication... I can contribute... |
3rd May 2016, 04:36 AM | #28 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,454
|
Tell ya what... let's not worry about the "myriad".
Let's reduce it to 3. First, tell us your "flavor" of CT. What do you think was one? How do you think it was done? Then please give me the 3 absolutely strongest pieces of hardcore evidence that this was a done in the manner that you describe. By "hardcore evidence", I mean something objective that we can examine today (most likely by photo, video or reference to technical paper such as NIST Report). |
3rd May 2016, 04:56 AM | #29 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 7,895
|
All you need do is a few simple demonstrations on a website on line that prove Gage and company dishonest, that should be simple and easy, if you need help I will do what I can.
It has to be sweet short and simple, for today's youth. A contest would be a great Idea, bet if you gave a keg of beer, to the best collage 9/11 debunking team, you would have tons of new debunkers lining up to win. |
3rd May 2016, 05:30 AM | #30 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 7,895
|
PS. Don't forget a petition, for a new investigation into professionally dishonesty, and why Truthers are insane.
|
3rd May 2016, 05:40 AM | #31 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
Posts: 20,849
|
Let me translate from FFism. I believe that he may be saying that the damage to WTC 7 from WTC1 was not the cause of the collapse of WTC7.
Since truthers always cherrypick, he is ignoring that NIST did say it contributed to the manner and speed (and speed is a particular bugaboo of truthers) at which WTC 7 collapsed. Its similar to the way they say WTC 7 fell all four corners at the same time when in fact there was no SW corner, meaning that once the kink formed, the western side of the structure beyond that kink only had ONE surviving corner and the east side only two. They ignore the stresses that would put on the structure, well before the global phase of collapse.. |
3rd May 2016, 06:20 AM | #32 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 34,249
|
I think it's a bit less significant than that. He seems to be saying that some of the damage to WTC7 from WTC1 was not the cause of collapse of WTC7, according to NIST. To which the only rational reply is, so *********** what, given that other aspects of the damage to WTC7 from WTC1 plus the damage caused by the fires in WTC7 were the cause of collapse according to NIST?
Dave |
__________________
There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021 |
|
3rd May 2016, 06:23 AM | #33 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 7,895
|
Hey how about a PBS Nova frontline special, The dishonesty of truth?
A look at the for profit internet fraud that is the truth movement? Real engineering professionals and engineers, show the fraud for what it is. |
3rd May 2016, 07:15 AM | #34 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 18,667
|
Gage has practiced his routine for many years, he has all his lies in slick graphic design, and he know what sort of talk to avoid and deflect.
You, tfk, on the other hand, seem to be only now beginning to assemble your arguments, think about what your message will be, and how to present it. Thus, Gage is at an incredible advantage over you when it comes to impressing the gullible architect-passerby who has an attention span of only a few minute between a hotdog and that interior design workshop that he is really interested in. Worse yet, you can't resist the urge to follow every rabbit down every hole As showcased on this very thread, where you respond at length to people who are 100% cerrtain to not help you at all with this endeavour. Another 15 minutes wasted during which you could have tried out some booth design or read the abstracts of a few papers. |
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote) The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton) |
|
3rd May 2016, 07:22 AM | #35 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 7,895
|
That's why this might be a better alternative,http://submissions.wgbh.org
|
3rd May 2016, 09:22 AM | #36 |
Hasbarian NWO Templar Cattle
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: The Intergalatic Solar System!
Posts: 1,692
|
|
__________________
"Bravery Is Not A Function Of Firepower." - JC Denton "And belief in conspiracy theories is not the function of a higher intellect." - BStrong |
|
3rd May 2016, 09:38 AM | #37 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 7,895
|
|
3rd May 2016, 10:41 AM | #38 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,657
|
If I may chime in here....
The convention may not be the target audience you are looking for but certainly these people have influence over the audience you are seeking: either as professors or working architects with apprentices. I agreed with what you said earlier: nature abhors a vacuum and will always fill it. I agree it's wise to fill it with factual information. If a fund-me or some such account is set up I am in for $50. |
__________________
Can you people please stop not thinking? - Gorgonian The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. -Good luck America with President Trump |
|
3rd May 2016, 10:51 AM | #39 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,657
|
You have probably covered what I am going to say, and it is only my limited comprehension that doesnt allow me to fully realize it, but I just wanted to add, in response to FF, that NIST only stated the impact damage from WTC 1 did not play a part in Collapse Initiation.
I do not believe NIST states it played no part in the actual collapse. |
__________________
Can you people please stop not thinking? - Gorgonian The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. -Good luck America with President Trump |
|
3rd May 2016, 02:38 PM | #40 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,454
|
False Flag
Ahh, my bad reading. I read this as "damage that NIST says was not the [caused by] the collapse [of WTC1], right?" I see that my reading was wrong. And I see that your comment is still 100% wrong. While the damage shown here was not proximately involved in the collapse initiating failure, it is ABSOLUTELY one critical step in the chain of events that led to the collapse of WTC 7. All tracing back to the ultimate cause: "jet impacts buildings". Still waiting for some indication of what this Idiocy is supposed to signify. |
Thread Tools | |
|
|