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1st June 2016, 07:49 AM | #81 |
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Tracing back thru 5 post, I see that it was Oystein who specifically brought up DRG.
But his was a fair point that you did bring him into the conversation, unintentionally, by asserting: DRG is part of “truth people”, whether or not you cite or believe him. And it is clear that you have a scorching case of Cognitive Dissonance, when you state: You “strongly disagree”, but “it’s nothing anybody couldn’t figure out for themselves”.??? Perhaps you should go figure out for yourself whether you agree with him or not. And then stick with that position. Further, you say that “when you say ‘truth people’, you mean AE911T…", but as I pointed out, DRG’s incompetent delusions were the “factual” foundation upon which the Numero Uno Truth Person at AE911T (Gage) built his incompetent edifice. You can NOT accept Gage while rejecting DRG, because Gage is built upon DRG. You started you post by providing links to 3 of DRG’s books. Yes, I confess that it is true. You got me. I admit that “tracing back thru several posts, to find out whether this example of your idiocy is distinguishable in any way from all the other examples of your idiocy” does not, in fact, rise to the level of "something significant enough to warrant any amount of my attention". And there you go again. Citing amateurs. Gage has no more knowledge of either arson or “evidence requiring arson investigations” than he does of “structural engineering”. There WAS an expert on the scene, who IS an expert on both arson & “evidence requiring arson investigation”. His name is Daniel Nigro. It turns out that you can’t be a complete, utter moron & rise to the level of Chief of the FDNY. He had very reliable reports that two planes fly into two buildings. Two buildings had enormous fires in them, and then collapsed. Setting off fires in ALL of the surrounding buildings, cars, fire trucks, busses, etc. One of the other tall building (WTC 7), which had its fire start when WTC 1 fell on it (as did all those other buildings, cars, busses, etc), had unfought, raging fires on multiple floors. [Interesting aside: ONLY brain dead Truthers, excuse me, Twoofers, think that a modern office building, crammed full of paper, wood, paper, plastics, paper, and other combustibles (like paper), will burn in small, low temperature fire, when the fires are left unfought.]So, Chief Nigro, NOT being an utter moron, figured that he had a pretty good handle on what caused the fire. And, as a direct result of that - pay very close attention here, Micah - all of the requirements of NFPA 921 WERE followed to the letter. The investigative suggestions of NFPA 921 are invoked when the cause of the fires is unknown. The causes were NOT unknown. NFPA 921 gives wide latitude & discretion to the chief fire investigator on the scene to use his judgment as to whether or not further suggested tests are required in order to figure out the cause of the fire. Chief Nigro correctly assessed that those additional suggested tests were not required. Chief Nigro followed the intent of NFPA 921 to the letter, when he determined that “tests for thermite & other exotic accelerants” were not warranted in this case. Because there was absolutely zero question as to the cause of those fires. Maybe when you grow up, you can become a big city fire investigator. Maybe then, it might become YOUR call. And maybe then, if you call for investigations of “thermite & other exotic accelerants” in the case of a plane flying into a building, you can experience the warm & fuzzy feeling of every thinking person around calling for you to be “fired for wasting taxpayers money”. The problem is that “the NFPA 921 passages that [you] have quoted”, were quoted by a clueless amateur who hasn’t the slightest notion what he is talking about. The nail in the coffin to your idiotic claims is the fact that multiple experts, who DO know what they are talking about, have stated, clearly & unequivocally, that your interpretation of NFPA 921 is uninformed & moronic. Other than all of the above, I support you 100%. You keep at it. Keep pushing for a new investigation for “thermite & other accelerants” in the debris pile of Ground Zero. Perhaps you could do the investigation yourself. After all, you do have your copy of NFPA 921. That’s all you really need. Who needs understanding & experience, when some kid can cluelessly extract a few quotes here & there…?? Be sure to keep me informed at all of your progress. I’ll clear of all of my other tasks so that I can focus all of my attention on you. That way, I’ll be sure to not have any more embarrassing “lapses in my attention span” when it comes to the slightest thing that you are doing … Really. |
1st June 2016, 07:59 AM | #82 |
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1st June 2016, 11:01 AM | #83 |
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Why include a standard 9/11 truth tag-line;
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What does it mean, "laws... had to have been violated"... Why is crap like this in the abstract? Is this a veiled attempt to back in CD? Why do they mention Bazant for 7 WTC? Who pays the fees for the "challenge journal of structural mechanics", where the challenged are the failed reviewers who let BS in. The paper does not do more than review other work, and claim the building can't fall - as they left out how it did fall. Did they mention the penthouse falling into 7 WTC? Is this a vanity journal? No evidence for CD, or an inside job... Batting zero so far... Strike one Wow, they disagree with NIST on what started the collapse; not news, so do other engineers. Again no evidence for CD, or an inside job, only evidence they disagree with NIST. No evidence for CD or inside job from this paper which is not a 9/11 truth paper... Strike two... Wow, a sort of real journal, and the 9/11 truth CD BS had to be kept out or the paper by these fantasy CD 9/11 truth guys would be rejected hopefully as woo... Thus we see 9/11 truth CD believers can make a paper pass the review and be published by keeping out the woo. However, it is poor form to do a paper which makes up BS about other papers, and expose a failed knowledge of the limitation of the other papers. And the conclusion for this paper is?
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The paper does not support CD, and fails to meet the stated goals. The paper is worthless for your inside job, or your CD fantasy; I forgot what your fantasy of 9/11 is - as you present a paper which is good for nothing. No evidence in this no real conclusion paper for CD, or an inside job. Strike three. Three papers which offer no evidence for CD, no evidence for an inside job. What was the point? One paper with a hint of woo, the broke the laws of physics BS, one paper which disagrees with NIST on what started 7 WTC collapse, and one paper with a conclusion they don't know beans about anything. |
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1st June 2016, 04:35 PM | #84 |
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1st June 2016, 04:37 PM | #85 |
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1st June 2016, 07:01 PM | #86 |
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"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" - Albert Einstein "... education as the means of developing our greatest abilities" - JFK |
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1st June 2016, 07:08 PM | #87 |
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1st June 2016, 07:16 PM | #88 |
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Why can't you provide answers? Is it due to your lack of knowledge?
How is fire for burning for hours so easily? What? You have no clue how long it too 7 WTC to start to fail internally? A process which took over 16 seconds. Do you understand engineering, fire, steel? Thus your questions are based on overwhelming ignorance? What do you think caused the collapse of 7 WTC? Your past posts, and failure at physics... irony... ff (think programming, a long, long time ago.... okay a while back...) |
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1st June 2016, 09:31 PM | #89 |
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1st June 2016, 10:57 PM | #90 |
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Some degree of comminution is inevitable, but it certainly isn't necessary for collapse to progress to the ground. Why would it be? The floors didn't hold the building up, it was primarily the column/girder connections that did that.
More to the point - the pile had external wall sections over the top, not concrete floors. Where are the photos showing typical WTC7 concrete remains that allow the writers to come to conclusions about the degree of comminution? I'm not aware of any rubble analysis of WTC7 that would help either. No, they presented numbers based on no actual evidence and surrounded them with complex formulae in order to impress people. The ultimate absurdity is that if there wasn't sufficient PE in the building to account for their comminution figures then how did it happen? Explosives that nobody heard. |
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2nd June 2016, 11:05 PM | #91 |
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There are no photographs of large pieces of concrete slabs from WTC 7, even though it's alleged internal failure was completely different and less energetic than the Twin Towers collapse. Here's Leslie Robertson describing the WTC 7 rubble as "a big sand pile", "sand and gravel".
Pulverization is a characteristic of a completely unrestrained collapse. The pulverization does not have to be the result of hypothetical explosive devices to be considered a sign of intentional destruction. Does the pulverization of commercial CDs even happen as a result of the high explosives, or is it more as a result of the structure gaining momentum and crushing itself? |
3rd June 2016, 12:26 AM | #92 |
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3rd June 2016, 03:05 AM | #93 |
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3rd June 2016, 04:15 AM | #94 |
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Here are concrete beams and encased columns surviving the 7wtc collapse.
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3rd June 2016, 07:32 AM | #95 |
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Thanks for the photo, but that isn't really what I mean. A layman's understanding of the official story of WTC 7 is that floors within the building were partially collapsing onto another until the interior became more or less empty, leaving the perimeter as a hollow shell. I would expect to see recognizable floors with this and that strewn about. The apparent pulverization of this rubble pile looks more like the entire building fell as a unit, crushing itself with momentum from the freefall.
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3rd June 2016, 10:48 AM | #96 |
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The concrete used is thin, light weight no stone aggregate which broke up rather quickly with consideration to tens of thousands of mechanical impacts. These impacts rendered virtually all of the concrete to sand and portland cement/limestone dust.
Have you pics of any very tall buildings which were CDed with light weight concrete slabs and there were a stack of slabs at the end? I think this is what happens when very tall buildings collapse.... the slabs are turned to pretty much sand and dust and twisted re bar and mesh. |
3rd June 2016, 01:34 PM | #97 |
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And it is brain-dead questions exactly like this that prove how insincere you are. And how this is all just a pathetic game to you.
"... air & gravity ..."??? Nothing else happened to WTC7 that day, except "air & gravity"?? Really? Is that the conclusion of the NIST engineers? "Air & gravity"? |
3rd June 2016, 04:29 PM | #98 |
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The official story of WTC 7 have smaller internal collapses which are much less energetic than the Twin Tower, until the perimeter fall as more or less a hollow shell. With that considered, why shouldn't I expect something akin to the rubble piles of buildings that collapsed in earthquakes, with recognizable floors and their sandwiched contents?
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3rd June 2016, 04:46 PM | #99 |
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I think that very tall building with open office plans... column free using light weight concrete slabs will all collapse with little to no big chunks of floor slabs in the debris. I think the forces involved would crush the slabs pretty completely and the number of collisions.
The way I see the explanation for 7wtc is that there was a failure below floor 8 which easily and rapidly propagated from the east side across the north side of the core... to the west side. It was a wide building but the spans were pretty long. And there were a lot of load transfer structures... meaning that the forces in columns above had no direct coupling to the foundation. I suspect this accounts for the rapid "gutting" of the interior... followed by the collapse of the perimeter moment frame. I can't detail how these failure were initiated or precisely where. But I think hours of heat could warp, expand steel and shear / fail connections and the member don't work when their connections fail. |
3rd June 2016, 05:30 PM | #100 |
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You're right. Air and gravity didn't cause the collapse. Explosives did.
Stop taking my posts out of context. It's obvious you're pi**ed off that a non-expert is kicking your a** by pointing out the fraud you keep committing. If you want me to stop then stop posting your nonsense. |
4th June 2016, 06:46 AM | #101 |
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4th June 2016, 07:53 AM | #102 |
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FYP
Re: the highlighted. What explosives are those? Care to describe them? How many were used? Show your math. How were they placed? Where were they placed? How come not a scintilla of evidence has been found of these explosives that were supposed used that day? None was found at ground zero. None on the examined steel. None by the dogs trained to find explosives. None by the hundreds of law enforcement officers at the site. None by fire marshals or fire investigators. You're batting a big fat zero, which is why the 15 years of failure will continue forever. Why can't you do better? |
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4th June 2016, 08:10 PM | #103 |
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4th June 2016, 08:11 PM | #104 |
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4th June 2016, 10:15 PM | #105 |
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"CD does not prove 9/11 was an inside job. It only proves CD"- FalseFlag |
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5th June 2016, 01:53 AM | #106 |
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Why? Clearly, FF, you already have the answers, because you know explosives were used.
Why not simply tell us? You seem so eager to sway people to your own viewpoint, and you know how it works on this site: "Show us the evidence" is the mantra. Share the evidence that convinced you that explosives were used, and then we can look at it ourselves. Perhaps you can open some eyes, and thus gain support for the investigation you want. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Just as a pre-emptive post, videos of the collapses, with some comment like "It's obvious except to all you skeptic BS merchants" does not constitute evidence. |
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5th June 2016, 01:06 PM | #107 |
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Sure thing. Hush-A-Booms™
LMFAO. I didn't take one single thing out of context. Micah asked: Beachnut answered him, accurately: You immediately grabbed the Baton Of Stupid & ran off in some random direction, with this gem: I answered your stupid comment concisely: Then, being the helpful chap that I am, I directed you to the precise location that would help you clear up your stupidity: If you’d taken the hint, if you'd ever bother to read the report that you clueless assert is fraudulent, you’d have found out that NIST’s engineers listed about 6 specific causes for the collapse of the building, none of which was “air & gravity”. Because “air” is irrelevant & “gravity” is obvious. The causes being: Local eventsIt's hilarious that you adamantly refuse to read the NIST report, where you might learn some of this remedial stuff... If by “pissed off that [you’re] kicking [my] ass”, you mean “laughing [my] ass off that [you’re] making an utter fool of [yourself] every time [you] post something this moronic”, then … yeah. I don’t want you to “stop anything”. There is no better advertisement for how totally clueless Twoofers are than you, FF. When your opponent is a total, clueless moron, the LAST thing that you want him to do is to “stop talking”. LoL. You keep it up, FF. You’re doing a FINE job. Just not for the side that you think you are supporting. (Especially the “I know physics” part. That is priceless…) |
5th June 2016, 03:39 PM | #108 |
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Yes C4 is air. Upon detonation a 1.25 pound stick of C4 turns into 1.25 pounds of Nitrogen and Carbon Dioxide and has a gas volume of about 12 cu ft. That is about the size of your average refrigerator.
Do you breath out air ? If you put a plastic bag over your head in a few minuets you will have a mixture of Nitrogen and Carbon Dioxide. You are claiming that 12 cu ft of Nitrogen and Carbon Dioxide can destroy steel. So prove It. As a experiment may I suggest you and Cole get together, find a couple of old refrigerators, get inside and wait until they are completely filled with Nitrogen and Carbon Dioxide. Lets see if they explode and how much damage they do. Remember. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.
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5th June 2016, 05:14 PM | #109 |
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5th June 2016, 08:42 PM | #110 |
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7th June 2016, 11:15 AM | #111 |
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Slesinger's denial of physics
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7th June 2016, 01:22 PM | #112 |
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Progressive collapse denial seems to be the latest big thing in trutherla-la-land. The argument used to be that the crushed rubble from the upper floors would all be ejected from the sides of the building, and anyone who pointed out any problems with this was a poopy head (well, not exactly, but it was about that intelligently put). The latest development is not even to bother making the argument that the rubble would be ejected, just to somehow pretend it ceases to exist, and back this up by handwaving and misquoting Newton's Third Law. I blame Jonathan Cole, who seems to be the leader of the made-up-laws-of-physics crew at the moment, but everyone else seems to be jumping on the bandwagon despite its obvious lack of any wheels.
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7th June 2016, 04:50 PM | #113 |
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I'm wondering how it is supposed to have been ejected. Don't the Truthers themselves tell us that it's suspicious that the top columns wound up hundreds of feet away from the center of collapse, instead of falling straight down? If anything, the debris from the top would have just piled up on top of one of the lower floors, if the collapse was arrested. Perhaps some of it would have slid down the forming heap and out of the building, but the rest of it would have just sat there. I don't see how it's so hard to comprehend: The floors just weren't made to hold that kind of weight. I don't think they could even hold that much statically, let alone with it falling from a height. That's why the weight was anchored to those big massive columns, which could support it.
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7th June 2016, 05:36 PM | #114 |
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There are a couple of related side effects I've noticed from the discussion of the Cole video. Plus commented on one of them and got ignored.
The first is that in his series of models (Five IIRC) - all but the first make the fundamental error of describing the Twin Towers collapses progression as "columns in line buckling" and not " "falling mass bypassing the columns". Most if not all discussion has focussed on Cole's detailed arguments and ignored the false premise. His models are wrong - there is no point discusing details. The second is the implication that it is possible to initiate a "columns in line and crushing model" - I only recently woke up to that bit of reality myself - I've known it didn't happen for years as most members must be aware. So I knew "didn't" but hadn't realised "couldn't" - couldn't even do it by CD and it didn't happen naturally. Both those have been at the heart of a lot of controversy on this forum - flowing to other forums. An clearly they are still not resolved - settled issues - for many debunkers. Even if we set aside the linguistic mental gymnastics and "no truther can ever be right on anything" nonsense derived animosity towards "ROOSD" and Major_Tom. It should still be clear that the progressions mechanism bypassed the columns. AND that the "Top Block" never did "drop (through a gap) to impact". If fact there are signs that many are regressing to the confusion of former years. AND - to make it worse - one of Cole's examples he correctly IMO identifies that Bazant & Verdure's 2007 "crush down/crush up" does not apply to WTC Twins collapses. He is IMNSHO correct on the finding - his reasoning is nonsense so his claim is still wrong. So why the difficulty on this and other forums of addressing where the real error lies with claims which are wrong in starting premises/scenario? And the preference for discussing details based on implicit agreement with the truthers false foundation? One obvious response is that engineers and physicists prefer to discuss details and numbers. They easily forget the objective "drain the swamp" when "up to their arses in alligators". The other one is that many seem to be as genuinely confused over the basics as the truthers they despise. I don't think that situation will change fast - if ever. |
7th June 2016, 07:42 PM | #115 |
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And let's not forget that of over 1000 core column sections... there were no crushed columns found... but oodles of pretty much intact ones broken apart at the end connections.
So the only conclusion is that it wasn't the columns collapsing/crushing but the floors and they bypassed the columns! |
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