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16th June 2017, 10:42 AM | #321 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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16th June 2017, 12:13 PM | #322 |
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16th June 2017, 01:27 PM | #323 |
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16th June 2017, 01:49 PM | #324 | |||
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Here is an interview with Bret Weinstein on the Rubin Report:
He is anything but racist. The group think of the students and the bullying here is truly something to behold. The control left. |
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16th June 2017, 02:09 PM | #325 |
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That's actually one of the complaints by the students. Weinstein is erudite, focused, and thoughtful, but he has an unfair rhetorical advantage. His position has been clarified while that of the loosely formed student group has not and cannot be while retaining the essential diversity if views they wish to represent.
There is no single spokesperson for the students so Weinstein gets to play in the media while they get ignored as a group. There's a subsequent power dynamic that emerges instead of the fruitful dialogue the students might wish for. The more Weinstein shapes the arguments, the worse it gets for any real change. What I have not heard Weinstein offering, as a fair and honest communicator, is the students' point of view. So yes, they get frustrated when he takes the matter public, because it's seen as recruiting, and finding support, from outsiders instead of institutional stakeholders. |
16th June 2017, 02:13 PM | #326 |
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16th June 2017, 02:25 PM | #327 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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16th June 2017, 02:29 PM | #328 |
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16th June 2017, 02:37 PM | #329 |
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It may be unobtainium and mythical. But so is Weinstein's version. The point is to dialogue, to see what emerges. Weinstein has adopted the role of charismatic spokesperson - which he is good at - a professional speaker/teacher against students who are just learning their places in the world. His role should be coach, not opponent.
This level of mismatch always made me wince when Christopher Hitchens did it. Too entertaining (in the sense of logically entertaining) to be serious. One gets the sense their is another, unspoken side behind the curtain. |
16th June 2017, 02:41 PM | #330 |
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I don't even know how to respond to this. Of course he has an advantage: he is smart and reasonable. The students are a lord of the flies situation and their views are ridiculous, they are not to be taken seriously by anybody. They can protest and the media can choose to give their absurd viewpoint a platform or not. Bloggers can interview them or not interview them.
In the larger picture there is this strange dynamic on the far far left where it doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong, the only thing that matters is power and some vague notion of fairness so we can't tell who is wrong in a police shooting, only that the cops are always wrong because of the power dynamic so we have a situation where innocent people are killed by cops and where somebody attacks a cop, and is subsequently killed in self defense, and these are seen as exactly the same thing. Bloggers are journalists are free to interview any of the students but what would be the point? |
16th June 2017, 02:52 PM | #331 |
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16th June 2017, 02:54 PM | #332 |
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16th June 2017, 02:59 PM | #333 |
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16th June 2017, 03:29 PM | #334 |
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I have to step back from what I said earlier. I'd seen three or four clips/podcasts with Weinstein, but the one posted above was new to me. In it (about 35:00) Weinstein does offer an explanation for the students' behavior. So when I said he didn't I was incorrect.
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16th June 2017, 04:53 PM | #335 |
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16th June 2017, 06:19 PM | #336 |
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If you think the protesters want dialogue, you haven't been paying attention. Seriously, they have no interest in it.
Quote:
You claim Weistein has the power here, but events on the ground prove you wrong. The protesters won. They gained concessions from the university, Weinstein didn't. And the reason they won is that the merits of the argument were always irrelevant. |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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16th June 2017, 06:25 PM | #337 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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16th June 2017, 06:26 PM | #338 |
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16th June 2017, 06:30 PM | #339 |
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They didn't get concessions because they were right. They got concessions because they made the university hurt enough to surrender.
And the concessions they got do nothing to solve any actual problems. They are simply a mechanism to transfer money (and power) from taxpayers to radical activists. And because of the additional costs that such makework programs impose, it will merely exacerbate issues of inequality. |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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16th June 2017, 06:36 PM | #340 |
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There is no Antimemetics Division. |
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16th June 2017, 11:01 PM | #341 |
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17th June 2017, 12:13 AM | #342 |
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Short version.
I seem to recall a parable about specs, eyes, and seeing clearly. Oddly, that spec calls itself Truth, but it is really made of sticky dogma. Skeptical eyewash highly recommended. Slightly longer: Hangman Truth, the Great Enabler. |
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17th June 2017, 03:03 PM | #343 |
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Has it been mentioned already that the "activists" were roaming the campus with baseball bats even before the Weinstein incident?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY002a-ngsM And held the administration hostage, not even allowing to let them go to the toilet unsupervised to prevent escape? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Msfsp5Ofz4g Technically illegal, but of course nobody pressed charges. |
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17th June 2017, 04:58 PM | #344 |
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Even though this clip is presented as showing how wrong the activists' position is, if you actually listen to what the woman is saying, she makes sense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doUn0WY33YU |
17th June 2017, 09:06 PM | #345 |
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17th June 2017, 09:12 PM | #346 |
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17th June 2017, 09:20 PM | #347 |
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17th June 2017, 09:23 PM | #348 |
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17th June 2017, 09:36 PM | #349 |
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Even then, I don't see what that would accomplish. There is very strong evidence that one side of this conversation is explicitly opposed to reason. It's like asking a biologist to go to a creationist convention to help resolve disagreements.
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17th June 2017, 10:51 PM | #350 |
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17th June 2017, 11:03 PM | #351 |
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You're free to stretch the analogy thin if you want, but you are badly missing the point.
If it is the case that the protesters are not interested in addressing the disagreement in a reasonable or honest way*, then why should the professors spend their time discussing matters with them? *If you disagree with this part, let me know |
17th June 2017, 11:07 PM | #352 |
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She makes the point that the time for discussion is past because they aren't getting results. Instead, they get nice sounding words and no action. They want to be heard, not "reasoned" with. I'd argue the word "honest" in there.
The professors work for the students. |
18th June 2017, 12:33 AM | #353 |
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You've lost the plot.
She says the time for discussion is past. You say that she wants them to show up at a meeting. Presumably, something other than a discussion will occur at said meeting. I have no clue what you think will happen, nor what you think the likely result will be, nor why you think it will make more progress than the other meetings did. |
18th June 2017, 02:14 AM | #354 |
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Correct.
Quote:
Quote:
If you want to participate under these terms, go to the meeting. If you don't want to participate, go home. Seems pretty plain. |
18th June 2017, 03:18 AM | #355 |
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"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov |
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18th June 2017, 03:23 AM | #356 |
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No they don't. They work for a school that is selling the students an education. The school decides what that education entails and the students decide whether or not they want to purchase it. That transaction doesn't mean that anyone "works for" the students.
Of course their input is valuable. And there is certainly an obligation to be honest about what sort of education the students will be getting. But if the school administration has a particular view about the best way to go about educating students and those students don't agree, they are free to attend a different institution. Their is no necessary obligation on the school to make changes that they don't consider to be in their interests. |
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"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov |
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18th June 2017, 04:56 AM | #357 |
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Then they ought to leave.
Quote:
I think of it more in terms of a protest march. You have the marchers, in a group with signs, all chanting whatever slogan they deem most important. One could have a counter-demonstration, but it's not needed for the purposes of the march. It's one sided. They just want to be heard and show evidence of their group affiliation and concerns. |
18th June 2017, 05:21 AM | #358 |
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They failed at communicating effectively. Perhaps more schooling is needed.
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18th June 2017, 06:35 AM | #359 |
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See, if you replace 'listen' with 'capitulate' then things make a lot more sense.
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18th June 2017, 09:17 PM | #360 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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