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Tags voting issues , voting machines , voting systems

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Old 16th April 2019, 09:40 AM   #81
psionl0
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Since we’re going crazy with the voting practices, I’m going to throw in ranked choice voting in there, too.
That's not enough to stop gerrymandering. You lot better implement MMP.
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Old 16th April 2019, 09:53 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
They're obviously more secure than voting machines.
The more popular choice is to slap a card skimmer on the ATM, but I can be pretty easy to get into an ATM. Eg:

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/0...g_lunch_break/
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Old 16th April 2019, 09:57 AM   #83
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Yes to most of the reasonable stuff, especially paper ballots only, automatic registration, and making voting day a holiday (I'd prefer it be a Wednesday). To not be discriminatory, it should be a paid holiday, and any public transport be free that day. Finally, given North Carolina, mandatory state-by-state audits by some other state, maybe even another country.
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Old 16th April 2019, 10:01 AM   #84
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I think any state, no matter where they are what their history is, should have to submit any voting requirements to a neutral third party to ensure they aren't "inadvertently" targeting certain demographics. Like we had with the VRA for Jim Crow states before SCOTUS killed that provision.
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Old 16th April 2019, 10:12 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
They're obviously more secure than voting machines.


See what I mean? ATMs don't have these problems.
The thing is, ATMs are not secure. If someone skims your card and steals your number, it's going to be detected because charges start deviating from your usual spending habits.

If someone steals your vote, what happens? Do you want the government recording and analyzing your voting history to determine if it thinks your vote is wonky? And how would they do that when you only vote a few times in a year? There really isn't the kind of data banks have to determine variance from a trend.
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Old 16th April 2019, 10:41 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
The thing is, ATMs are not secure. If someone skims your card and steals your number, it's going to be detected because charges start deviating from your usual spending habits.

If someone steals your vote, what happens? Do you want the government recording and analyzing your voting history to determine if it thinks your vote is wonky? And how would they do that when you only vote a few times in a year? There really isn't the kind of data banks have to determine variance from a trend.

Indeed. And especially the highlighted.

Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
What makes you think ATM’s are secure?


Setting aside the fact that many of the published hacks involve Wi-Fi or exposed USB ports that can easily be exploited using the type of access voters require. Even setting aside the fact that a myriad of people need access to the machines to move them, set them up and store them, and most of these have all the access they need to hack them.

BY FAR the most common culprit for cheating in an election is the people running the election, in which case none of your points apply. Even plausibility of the reported results doesn't prevent the winning party from simply ignoring the complaints. TBH it doesn’t’ matter how many anomalies there are, you can bet that if Republicans win an election Fox will be on the air 24/7 telling the faithful that there is nothing wrong with the results, and most Republicans will not just accept it many will come to forums like this one and fervently defend the results even though they are completely bogus.

Paper counts with candidates or their representatives present is about as transparent as it gets.

Elections need to be transparent, so that people can trust that they are valid.
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Old 16th April 2019, 10:57 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
It appears not.
Maybe from ahhell you can, since he's the one who actually seems to think it's a bad thing.

But this is the same problem all over again.

I have no animosity towards the idea.

I don't think it's a bad thing.
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Old 16th April 2019, 11:07 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Yeah, that is what it looks like. I like that system a whole lot, too. Thanks! I had never heard of it before!
You're welcome
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Old 16th April 2019, 11:39 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Maybe from ahhell you can, since he's the one who actually seems to think it's a bad thing.

But this is the same problem all over again.

I have no animosity towards the idea.

I don't think it's a bad thing.
You opposed the idea when you answered no to it. No matter how the question is phrased, you seen unable to explain why you oppose it. Yet you don't think it's a bad thing.

Again, I was hoping you had some sort of reasoning as to why you oppose automatic voter registration. Apparently you do not. Oh well.
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Old 16th April 2019, 12:23 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I do have animosity towards it, mostly because I'm from CA where they've taken democracy to the its nearly stupidest extreme. Automatic registration wouldn't actually matter if you don't have mandatory voting, the initiative process, or legal vote harvesting.
It matters because it makes registering to vote easier, rather than harder, for legal voters.

Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I used work with a women who I would describe as stupid, ugly, lazy, and mean(I wouldn't bother with the first two if she hadn't been the last) any rate, she was registered to vote but had know idea what if any party she was registered in. Fortunately, she'd never voted. So, who cares really. I would be very concerned if she had actually been required to. And recently the state has made it legal for someone to go collect her vote, so she may actually be voting, or someone might just be collecting her ballot and turning it in. Sure, anecdote, I know but still. That does concern me, I really don't understand why anyone thinks its a good idea to register folks to vote who have literally know interest in doing so, unless its for just base politics in because they figure those folks, if they vote, will vote for their side.

I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but you don't actually need to register with either party to vote in the general election.
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Old 16th April 2019, 05:48 PM   #91
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Old 17th April 2019, 02:40 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but you don't actually need to register with either party to vote in the general election.
That's fairly insulting but as I said, she didn't know what if any party she was registered in.
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Old 17th April 2019, 02:54 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
That's fairly insulting but as I said, she didn't know what if any party she was registered in.
You don't need to register as a party to vote in the general, and you don't need to register in a party to register to vote at all. Her lack of knowledge of something irrelevant to voting doesn't mean she should not be voting.

I've heard it said that if you don't care or are ignorant of the issues, you should not be making decisions about those issues, nor should you be given the opportunity to without some effort on your part to demonstrate at least an interest. I'm not sure I'm as comfortable as you arewith some sort test to demonstrate effort or understanding of the relevant issues, as I think it might just come back and bite a proponent of that idea in the rear end.
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Old 17th April 2019, 02:55 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That's not enough to stop gerrymandering. You lot better implement MMP.
And a wrench is not enough to drive a nail. You need a toolbox to do all the things.
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Old 18th April 2019, 06:42 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
You don't need to register as a party to vote in the general, and you don't need to register in a party to register to vote at all. Her lack of knowledge of something irrelevant to voting doesn't mean she should not be voting.

I've heard it said that if you don't care or are ignorant of the issues, you should not be making decisions about those issues, nor should you be given the opportunity to without some effort on your part to demonstrate at least an interest. I'm not sure I'm as comfortable as you arewith some sort test to demonstrate effort or understanding of the relevant issues, as I think it might just come back and bite a proponent of that idea in the rear end.
You keep missing something, I fully understand that you don't need to register in a party to vote in the general. She didn't even know if she had or had not register in a party. She was registered to vote but wasn't engaged enough to do more than check a box. I'm not sure I would call knowing what your party affiliation is, irrelevant to voting considering that's pretty much all most people need to know before making a decision.
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Old 18th April 2019, 09:04 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
You keep missing something, I fully understand that you don't need to register in a party to vote in the general. She didn't even know if she had or had not register in a party. She was registered to vote but wasn't engaged enough to do more than check a box. I'm not sure I would call knowing what your party affiliation is, irrelevant to voting considering that's pretty much all most people need to know before making a decision.
Wait, is checking a box demonstrating an understanding of the issues or not? You seem to think it does not for her, but it does for most people.

And again, you seem to not understand that you don't need to fill in a party to register to vote at all. It's irrelevant to understanding the issues you are voting on. It does not matter. If you want people to understand the issues they are voting on before making a decision, your insistence that she must vote party line for whichever party she registered as whenever she registered to vote does not demonstrate any understanding of the issues at all.
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Old 18th April 2019, 11:32 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Wait, is checking a box demonstrating an understanding of the issues or not? You seem to think it does not for her, but it does for most people.

And again, you seem to not understand that you don't need to fill in a party to register to vote at all. It's irrelevant to understanding the issues you are voting on. It does not matter. If you want people to understand the issues they are voting on before making a decision, your insistence that she must vote party line for whichever party she registered as whenever she registered to vote does not demonstrate any understanding of the issues at all.
Oy vey.
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Old 18th April 2019, 12:20 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Oy vey.
That response never seemed to work well for TBD. I don't think it's doing you any favors either.

Let's try this a different way. You claimed that this woman shouldn't be voting because she doesn't remember which party, if any, she wrote down when she registered to vote. Rather than me pointing out in some other way that this doesn't matter, how about you explain why you think it does matter?
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Old 18th April 2019, 12:29 PM   #99
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In support of wareyin's position: I like to think I'm a reasonably well informed voter. Sure, there are many things I could stand to learn much more about, but I think I'm informed enough to at least not make a bone headed decision (like voting for Trump).

I honestly don't know if I'm registered in any particular party. Back in 1988 I voted for GHWB. I don't think I voted Republican in the primary, but I can't say for sure (I live in VA, not even sure if they had a primary that year).

In 2016 I voted for Bernie in the primary. I'm pretty sure in some states you have to be registered for the specific party if you want to vote in the primary. I don't recall if VA is one of those states. Maybe I was automatically registered as a Republican if I voted in the 1988 primary. Maybe I was automatically registered as a Democrat when I voted in the 2016 primary.

I voted in the primary. That was important to me. It's not important to me whether or not that constituted a formal registration into that party.

So there you go.
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Old 18th April 2019, 01:26 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I'm not sure I would call knowing what your party affiliation is, irrelevant to voting considering that's pretty much all most people need to know before making a decision.
This sounds like you think voting should be based on what “team” you are on, when in fact it should be completely irrelevant. People should vote based on the candidate’s position on the issues, not who “the party” tells them to vote for.
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Old 19th April 2019, 04:17 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
This sounds like you think voting should be based on what “team” you are on, when in fact it should be completely irrelevant. People should vote based on the candidate’s position on the issues, not who “the party” tells them to vote for.
That was a point I was trying to make. If one only votes based on "team", then one has demonstrated absolutely no knowledge or understanding of any issues other than checking a box for R or D. To understand the issues, people need to be able to actually look into the candidate's stance on those issues and vote accordingly.
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Old 19th April 2019, 06:28 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Paper ballots that can be counted by hand are a good start. Real election security requires one additional step.

Require a statistical audit of the election results. If the margin of victory in a statewide race was 10%, a hand count of 100 randomly selected ballots would be enough to confirm the winner. A race with a margin of 3% would require a hand count of about 2,000 randomly selected ballots.
But there's always this:

http://www.berkeleydailyplanet.com/i...sociated-Press

"SAN FRANCISCO — Elections officials spent Thursday counting 240 ballots found more than three weeks after Election Day, another in a string of embarrassments that has infuriated some city leaders.

The ballots mistakenly were left in locked boxes at polling places across the city on Election Day, Department of Elections officials said. Though their number would not overturn the results of any major race or ballot initiative, discovery of the ballots comes days after the lids of eight ballot boxes were found floating in San Francisco Bay."


And this:

https://www.sfgate.com/politics/arti...ns-3302604.php

"The corrugated plastic ballot box lids, each marked with the city seal and the words "Provisional and Absentee Ballots," first raised the concerns of election watchdogs shortly after the city's November election, when eight of them were found near the Golden Gate Bridge by the crew of a U.S. Coast Guard vessel.

Since then, despite assurances from city elections Director Tammy Haygood that the box lids merely blew into the bay while election workers cleaned them on a city pier, the issue has resurfaced time and again."
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Old 19th April 2019, 02:50 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
That response never seemed to work well for TBD. I don't think it's doing you any favors either.

Let's try this a different way. You claimed that this woman shouldn't be voting because she doesn't remember which party, if any, she wrote down when she registered to vote. Rather than me pointing out in some other way that this doesn't matter, how about you explain why you think it does matter?
I doubt it will help, I have said several times, "I know X is true" to which you have responded by saying, "you seem to think x is false".
It displays a level of indifference to the process that she paid so little attention to it as do not know. It doesn't matter if she was registered with a party, but she ought to know if she was. Her not knowing matters.

Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
This sounds like you think voting should be based on what “team” you are on, when in fact it should be completely irrelevant. People should vote based on the candidate’s position on the issues, not who “the party” tells them to vote for.
Not an endorsement, merely a statement of the way things are. The reality in the US is that most voters do not get past what team the candidate is on. To the point that research shows that there is a disturbingly large percentage of folks that will change there opinion on whether they agree or disagree with a statement depending on who they think said it.

This is probably true in most places, I am only aware of the research having been done in the US.

Last edited by ahhell; 19th April 2019 at 02:55 PM.
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Old 19th April 2019, 03:09 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I doubt it will help, I have said several times, "I know X is true" to which you have responded by saying, "you seem to think x is false".
It displays a level of indifference to the process that she paid so little attention to it as do not know. It doesn't matter if she was registered with a party, but she ought to know if she was. Her not knowing matters.


Not an endorsement, merely a statement of the way things are. The reality in the US is that most voters do not get past what team the candidate is on. To the point that research shows that there is a disturbingly large percentage of folks that will change there opinion on whether they agree or disagree with a statement depending on who they think said it.

This is probably true in most places, I am only aware of the research having been done in the US.
I strongly disagree, and to support my position I invite you to read my previous post.
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Old 19th April 2019, 05:37 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
It displays a level of indifference to the process that she paid so little attention to it as do not know. It doesn't matter if she was registered with a party, but she ought to know if she was. Her not knowing matters.
Why does her not knowing matter? Especially as you have now agreed that registering with a party doesn't matter. You are essentially saying that her not knowing if she did something which doesn't matter, matters.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 06:26 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Why does her not knowing matter? Especially as you have now agreed that registering with a party doesn't matter. You are essentially saying that her not knowing if she did something which doesn't matter, matters.
I don't think I said it doesn't matter, I believe I said that I know Americans to not need to be registered in a party. If I said it doesn't matter, I misspoke. It clearly matters as until recently in almost every state it meant you couldn't vote in the primary. It also is the primary thing most voters look for when it comes to voting in the general. That lack of basic knowledge about her status demonstrated a lack of basic knowledge about the process.

Regardless, the difference of opinion is that some folks think that its a good idea for someone who is either profoundly ignorant or profoundly indifferent to democracy to vote and want a process in which those folks are encouraged to vote. I disagree.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 08:20 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I don't think I said it doesn't matter, I believe I said that I know Americans to not need to be registered in a party. If I said it doesn't matter, I misspoke. It clearly matters as until recently in almost every state it meant you couldn't vote in the primary. It also is the primary thing most voters look for when it comes to voting in the general. That lack of basic knowledge about her status demonstrated a lack of basic knowledge about the process.
Are you aware that no matter what, if any, party you registered as, you can vote for any party at all in the general? Because if so, that clearly shows that knowledge of what party she may have been registered as has no bearing in the process of actually voting. Indeed, merely voting along party lines (I registered as x, therefore I must vote for every x candidate) demonstrates less knowledge about the issues or the process.

Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Regardless, the difference of opinion is that some folks think that its a good idea for someone who is either profoundly ignorant or profoundly indifferent to democracy to vote and want a process in which those folks are encouraged to vote. I disagree.
Your version of democracy is less people voting?
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Old 22nd April 2019, 01:32 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Make Election Day a federal Holiday on the first Monday of November

Automatic registration of everyone over 18

Voting Machines that produce a paper receipt and are audited before and immediately after every election. And a few randomly selected during the election (I know that will slow some things down, but I'd say maintaining the integrity of the vote is worth it).

Recounts for any margin under 5%

Rank choice voting with automatic run off

No indication of party on the ballot. Randomly change the order candidates appear on each ballot so people just can't go straight down the ticket without knowing who they are selecting

No announcing totals until the polls have closed

Free BBQ for all
I agree with most of this. A few more observations: There is no need for elections to last just one day. Mail in and early voting already are allowed in many states. Allow voting for a period of nine days, spanning two weekends. This will allow nearly everyone to vote on a day off. Use machine countable paper ballots. Check with statistical sampling. IN the event of a close election or possible discrepancy from statistical sampling, recount by hand.
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Old 1st August 2019, 07:36 PM   #109
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Bumpity.

Hello, Mitch McConnman. Having fun bullying the Kentuckians into voting Republican to get an aluminium factory job in a Russian state so you can profit?
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Old 8th September 2020, 03:20 AM   #110
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I realised we had this thread and am posting again in case the thread helps declutter the Mail-in ballots" thread.
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Old 8th September 2020, 03:56 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Make Election Day a federal Holiday on the first Monday of November

Automatic registration of everyone over 18

Voting Machines that produce a paper receipt and are audited before and immediately after every election. And a few randomly selected during the election (I know that will slow some things down, but I'd say maintaining the integrity of the vote is worth it).

Recounts for any margin under 5%

Rank choice voting with automatic run off

No indication of party on the ballot. Randomly change the order candidates appear on each ballot so people just can't go straight down the ticket without knowing who they are selecting

No announcing totals until the polls have closed

Free BBQ for all
And pony rides. I want pony rides!
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