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Old 1st September 2020, 09:07 AM   #41
rdwight
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BLM is weird in that it is not a centralized organization, so people that have an issue with the national organization aren't really aware that it has little to do with their local chapter. And those local chapters are the ones that are trying to get meaningful things done on the local level. They are in touch with the local politicians. The police departments in their area. They are the one's coordinating protests with members in the area. Although the national organization will pull in the larger donation base, the local chapters will end up being the one's to get things done.
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Old 1st September 2020, 09:11 AM   #42
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Yep.
Not having a MLK jr. is both a strength and weakness.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 09:44 PM   #43
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The man who shot and killed Jay Danielson, the Trump supporter in downtown Portland last Saturday night, has been shot and killed himself by investigators who had moved i to arrest him.

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/loc...ef=exit-recirc

Last edited by Stacyhs; 3rd September 2020 at 09:45 PM.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 10:53 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Yep.
Not having a MLK jr. is both a strength and weakness.
It was done by design - simply put, there's no single leader that can be killed to make the entire thing fall apart, and since criminal justice is mostly a local and state matter, with the federal government having limited influence, the local chapters can concentrate on the issues in their local areas. NYC's big problem is the reliance on arrest statistics to promote and assign pay raises. This is not the same as the outright "steal black people's money and spend it on white residents" white supremacism of Ferguson's PD.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 11:39 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
The man who shot and killed Jay Danielson, the Trump supporter in downtown Portland last Saturday night, has been shot and killed himself by investigators who had moved i to arrest him.

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/loc...ef=exit-recirc
Wow, apparently he pulled a gun when Federal Agents approached. Determined to go out in violence I guess.

From his interview with Vice right before he allegedly pulled a gun on Federal Agents and was shot he said "I hate to say it, but I feel a Civil War is right around the corner. That shot felt like the start of a war..."


The really sad thing is that there has been so many black leaders and BLM members have decried this violence from largely white protesters, and they have been shouted out and drowned out by radical extremists who would rather damage the BLM cause to push their own destructive agenda, than listen and converse with Black leaders who are imploring them to stop hurting black people.

In CHOP, the Seattle BLM leaders were shouted down and run out of the zone when they attempted to talk to the agitators there and let them know that they were co-opting and hurting the BLM cause. In Portland when largely white protesters burned, looted, and destroyed black owned businesses, the violent protesters largely ignored them.

Many of the local leaders of the BLM movements have been looking for real and lasting change. In Seattle at least where I have followed speeches and news most from the BLM movement, many of the people have said that they do not want to defund the police by 50%, because they do not think that will actually benefit their community. In reality, you can see evidence of that where large police reductions or pull backs has led to many more unnecessary deaths. Over 100% increase in murder in Minneapolis so far this year. There is massive damage from poorly thought out defund schemes, especially in minority communities.

You largely have richer white people who are pushing policies that would detrimentally affect black people to 'help them,' without even listening to those communities when many people say that they do not want that.

You have aggressive and violent protesters who in many cases have largely been white in the West at least, who are ignoring black leaders when they are told that their tactics and methods are hurtful and wrong.

I wholeheartedly believe in the BLM cause for better social justice reform. I definitely believe that "injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." I have just been shocked to see that people who have been damaging to the BLM cause have largely been given a free pass if they claim that they are doing damage in the name of BLM. Really that is the very definition of racism right there. 'Defund the Police' proponents are on track to kill FAR more people this year than all of the Right Wing Extremists groups combined, and very few people have confronted them on their coordinated mass murder.

Antifa has done very little if anything good to help the BLM cause. It doesn't matter if their name means "anit-Facist." It could be "Baby Bath Toys," but that doesn't matter if they are out there doing damage to everyone, hurting the BLM, and shooting people dead in cold blood.
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Old 4th September 2020, 12:35 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
BLM is weird in that it is not a centralized organization, so people that have an issue with the national organization aren't really aware that it has little to do with their local chapter. And those local chapters are the ones that are trying to get meaningful things done on the local level. They are in touch with the local politicians. The police departments in their area. They are the one's coordinating protests with members in the area. Although the national organization will pull in the larger donation base, the local chapters will end up being the one's to get things done.
That's something that I think a lot of people just don't get. A common thing I hear is that BLM is a Marxist organization who wants to get rid of the nuclear family, and anyone who shows support for BLM, must be a Marxist supporter as well.

Part of that I am sure is just a red hearing in order to ignore the real and pressing calls to massively reduce the systemic racism against people of color. However, I think that there are some people who actually believe that. If they thought about it though, it would be pretty clear that Marxism is never going to be an economic system in the United States. It already has had more than enough chances to show if it is viable, and it has shown that it is only an ideology that can exist in a hypothetical world, and fails miserably in reality. Whether or not a few members believe in the fantasy of Marxism is irrelevant to the larger BLM message.

When someone says that they support BLM, you can safely assume that they just mean that they believe in addressing the difference in injustice in dealing with systemic injustices towards black lives when compared to the reduced injustices towards all other lives. It's not that they don't believe that All Lives Matter. In many ways they believe more fully that All Lives Matter than the people who cross out signs of BLM and write "All Lives Matter." BLM supporters are focusing on the imbalance towards greater systemic injustice towards people of color, and in many ways that improves the lives of everyone else since everyone's sense of justice is tainted when we normalize structuralized injustices in our society. By focusing on BLM, they are making the statement All Lives Matter more accurate and true.

All of the other subsequent views just depends on the individual.



The decentralization of thought and ideas however also means the decentralization of codes of conduct. It is the sole reason why there were so many killings in CHOP, and so much violence at a significant number of protests.

At CHOP, there were a bunch of people with guns who labeled themselves "security," who all had their own ideas on what their code of conduct was, and many times ran around in a panic with loaded firearms. In one situation an extremely drunk security member led a large group of 100-150 people to charge at a business owner who had caught a protester who had broken in and stolen thousands of dollars and was setting fire to the business. After screaming that they were going to murder the business owner, the mob pushed down the gate and rushed at the man with a fully loaded rifle and body armor, and they were just seconds away from having casualties of probably at least 20-50 people before other CHOP security stepped in and stopped them. And of course there was the final situation where CHOP security riddled a car of black teenagers with bullets. After the shooting they were filmed taunting the dyeing teenagers, and were filmed cleaning up all of the bullet casings from the car. Honestly, the people of CHOP were lucky that they did not cause more deaths because of their purposeful decentralized chaos.

In the protests, it has been a major reason why they have not been able to constrain or control the more violent elements. Without a central voice, or more power behind some of the local BLM leaders, Antifa and other Anarchist groups just rolls right over them.

It may be a good strategy to keep them from being taken down from outside, but it makes it more likely that they could be taken down from within.
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Old 4th September 2020, 12:36 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Antifa has done very little if anything good to help the BLM cause. It doesn't matter if their name means "anit-Facist." It could be "Baby Bath Toys," but that doesn't matter if they are out there doing damage to everyone, hurting the BLM, and shooting people dead in cold blood.
Well, at least in Finland our small antifa faction consists largely of educated and pretty privileged youngsters who are larping "revolution". They latch onto liberal and progressive causes and try to turn them into utter **** - they want to "heighten the contradictions", though unlike Lenin and Trotsky they just play act. I would not be surprised if many of them will end up in business schools and get MBA:s and be strongly anti-left later in life. Pretty unpleasant bunch.
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Old 4th September 2020, 03:39 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yep, it sure does... if only that was what we are actually talking about.

Pro Tip: "systematic" and "systemic" do not mean the same thing. The difference between them is very, very important in relation to the subject here.

"Systematic" implies a plan of operation being put into place and being carried out. You can liken "systematic" to "methodical". The murdering of millions of Jews & Gypsies by the Nazis in the 1930s and 1940s was "systematic"

"Systemic", on the other hand means of, or relating to a system. It is used to describe some aspect, say, a social problem that affects every part of an entire system. You can liken "systemic" to "ingrained". Poverty in many third-world countries is "systemic".
You're all correct!

Joe did actually use the term systematic:
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
..the police systematically murdering black people
Which is exactly the hyperbole that rockysmith pointed out.

On the other hand, most people in this thread are talking about systemic racism in the police and justice systems. Which is a very real and very big problem.
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Old 4th September 2020, 04:52 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
BLM is weird in that it is not a centralized organization, so people that have an issue with the national organization aren't really aware that it has little to do with their local chapter. And those local chapters are the ones that are trying to get meaningful things done on the local level. They are in touch with the local politicians. The police departments in their area. They are the one's coordinating protests with members in the area. Although the national organization will pull in the larger donation base, the local chapters will end up being the one's to get things done.
So pretty much how the US was designed to work, no?
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Old 9th September 2020, 06:26 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
BLM is weird in that it is not a centralized organization, so people that have an issue with the national organization aren't really aware that it has little to do with their local chapter. And those local chapters are the ones that are trying to get meaningful things done on the local level. They are in touch with the local politicians. The police departments in their area. They are the one's coordinating protests with members in the area. Although the national organization will pull in the larger donation base, the local chapters will end up being the one's to get things done.
The protests are a popular movement. Whatever organized BLM efforts have lost control of the narrative a long time ago, which is a good thing. Small organizations don't have the power to change things, only popular movements with a large base of support.

Blaming national or local BLM chapters for looting or whatever is like blaming MLK Jr. for rioting during the civil rights era. It's assuming a level of personal control that is simply absurd. The movement is bigger than any one person or organization and is not centrally controllable, which is why brutal police suppression tactics have been largely ineffective.
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Old 9th September 2020, 07:59 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
You're all correct!

Joe did actually use the term systematic:

Which is exactly the hyperbole that rockysmith pointed out.

On the other hand, most people in this thread are talking about systemic racism in the police and justice systems. Which is a very real and very big problem.
But is that incorrect when we've heard of these gangs in the police that get a tattoo if they kill someone during the execution of their duties? For me that would qualify as systematic (and of course it may also be systemic).
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