ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags 2020 elections , joe biden , presidential candidates

Reply
Old 16th September 2020, 04:37 AM   #2601
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 28,261
Joe Biden tweeted

To be clear: I am not currently president. But if you chip in now, we can change that in November: https://joe.link/35LrCCJ
Quote Tweet

Acyn Torabi
@Acyn
The President attempts to blame Joe Biden for not implementing a national mask mandate
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 09:18 AM   #2602
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 14,991
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Let's just hope we didn't end up looking more like the UK or Spain.
Look at where Spain is at now. It would be a very good thing if we looked more like Spain. While this is obvious, it will become increasingly obvious over the coming weeks.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
My authority is total - Trump
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 09:52 AM   #2603
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State.
Posts: 21,184
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump War Room tweeted

Trump War Room - Text TRUMP to 88022
@TrumpWarRoom
Joe Biden does NOT deny he is taking performance enhancing drugs
Twitter is going to have so much fun with this.
__________________
A MAGA hat = a Swastika arm band. A vote for Trump is a vote for treason.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 09:56 AM   #2604
Regnad Kcin
Philosopher
 
Regnad Kcin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: New York
Posts: 9,973
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
*Trump drives a busload of orphans off a cliff and into an active volcano*

Sure, thatís bad. But how would it have been different if Biden was driving?
Trump would be alive?
__________________
My heros are Alex Zanardi and Evelyn Glennie.
Regnad Kcin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 10:13 AM   #2605
xjx388
Philosopher
 
xjx388's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 8,608
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Look at where Spain is at now. It would be a very good thing if we looked more like Spain. While this is obvious, it will become increasingly obvious over the coming weeks.
Spain is in the midst of a resurgence: in the last two days, according to Worldometer and some quick math, Spain has had 266.49 new cases per million vs. 225.05 new cases per million in the US. Spain also has a reporting system where the Ministry of Health has to verify numbers and thus the numbers are subject to increase days later.

The US is going to be screwed coming up here within the next week or so because of the Labor Day holiday so that may trigger our own resurgence.

I don't know that it is now or will become increasingly obvious that Spain is in a much better position than us.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 10:31 AM   #2606
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 21,185
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
All true RE: Trump.

But let's say we had Biden, what would the death toll in the US have looked like? How much better would we be doing in that regard?
Maybe something more like the EU?

Sure, they are seeing a recent surge that may meet our current infection rate if we keep dropping, but the area between those curves holds a lot of lives that could have been saved.
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 10:48 AM   #2607
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 14,991
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Spain is in the midst of a resurgence: in the last two days, according to Worldometer and some quick math, Spain has had 266.49 new cases per million vs. 225.05 new cases per million in the US. Spain also has a reporting system where the Ministry of Health has to verify numbers and thus the numbers are subject to increase days later.

The US is going to be screwed coming up here within the next week or so because of the Labor Day holiday so that may trigger our own resurgence.

I don't know that it is now or will become increasingly obvious that Spain is in a much better position than us.
I see. I looked at deaths. I should have looked at cases too. Thanks.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
My authority is total - Trump
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 10:58 AM   #2608
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 16,069
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Quote:
All true RE: Trump.

But let's say we had Biden, what would the death toll in the US have looked like? How much better would we be doing in that regard?
Maybe something more like the EU?
Actually the better comparison for the United States would be Canada, for a number of reasons... Both Canada and the U.S. have a similar standard of living and health care, both countries cover a large geographic region (with large population centers separated by sparsely populated areas), both countries have similar demographics, both countries are relatively isolated from Eurasia (which limits transmission of the disease from neighboring countries), and both countries have lower levels of governments (states/provinces) which often set their own rules for dealing with the pandemic.

Currently, the U.S. has ~600 deaths/million. Canada has ~250 deaths/million. So only about 42% of the death rate per capital in Canada. Since the U.S has had ~196,000 deaths, if they responded to Covid-19 the way Canada did, they would have only had ~81,000 deaths. In other words, they would have saved over 100,000 lives.

Now, there is no guarantee that Biden would have done exactly the same things that Canada's politicians did. And there is a certain amount of randomness involved too. (And I am sure you would still have idiotic governors in places like Texas and Florida who will fight against the 'godless Democrats who are taking away our fredumb'). But since the Democrats seem to be more willing to listen to experts (and biden was part of the Obama administration which handled other similar health care problems), I think its reasonable to assume they would have reacted better than Stubby McBonespurs and his band of deplorables.

See: Statista
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot

Last edited by Segnosaur; 16th September 2020 at 11:00 AM.
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 01:56 PM   #2609
xjx388
Philosopher
 
xjx388's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 8,608
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Actually the better comparison for the United States would be Canada, for a number of reasons... Both Canada and the U.S. have a similar standard of living and health care, both countries cover a large geographic region (with large population centers separated by sparsely populated areas), both countries have similar demographics, both countries are relatively isolated from Eurasia (which limits transmission of the disease from neighboring countries), and both countries have lower levels of governments (states/provinces) which often set their own rules for dealing with the pandemic.

Currently, the U.S. has ~600 deaths/million. Canada has ~250 deaths/million. So only about 42% of the death rate per capital in Canada. Since the U.S has had ~196,000 deaths, if they responded to Covid-19 the way Canada did, they would have only had ~81,000 deaths. In other words, they would have saved over 100,000 lives.

Now, there is no guarantee that Biden would have done exactly the same things that Canada's politicians did. And there is a certain amount of randomness involved too. (And I am sure you would still have idiotic governors in places like Texas and Florida who will fight against the 'godless Democrats who are taking away our fredumb'). But since the Democrats seem to be more willing to listen to experts (and biden was part of the Obama administration which handled other similar health care problems), I think its reasonable to assume they would have reacted better than Stubby McBonespurs and his band of deplorables.

See: Statista
The main reason Canada isn't a great comparison to the US is population density. Canada's pop./sqkm = 4; US = 34. Canada has 5 cities over 1 million pop and 30 cities of 100k; the US has 10 over 1 million and at least 100 over 100k.

It's very hard to compare countries for a host of reasons and population density is a big one.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 02:02 PM   #2610
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 12,641
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Look at where Spain is at now. It would be a very good thing if we looked more like Spain. While this is obvious, it will become increasingly obvious over the coming weeks.
Their case rate per day has risen to above their April peak. Their current case rate per million population is 208.2, and is climbing. The US case rate per million population is currently 120.8 and is dropping. The US's peak case rate per million population was 204.3.

US Highlighted
Spain Highlighted
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.

Last edited by Emily's Cat; 16th September 2020 at 02:04 PM.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 02:10 PM   #2611
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 12,641
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I see. I looked at deaths. I should have looked at cases too. Thanks.
There are a whole lot of factors that affect virus transmission and mitigation, and only a very few are things that can be influenced by politics. Fairly invasive and/or authoritarian measures can be very effective... but those measures are unlikely to be applicable in the US, or even in the majority of Europe.

You seem to blame a lot of the US experience on Trump. He's been a childish and petty blowhard about it, certainly. But at the end of the day, what he said on TV seems to have had very little to do with how people behaved. He had virtually no impact on the decisions that independent states made on when to lock down, or how stringently to do so. He may have had some marginal influence on some people as to whether or not to wear a mask (or to drink bleach), but the vast majority of people who have opposed lock-downs, business closures, and masks are people who oppose those actions on either pre-existing philosophical stances, or on economic factors (less so for masks).

Mother natures gives f-all about politics.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 02:12 PM   #2612
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 12,641
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Actually the better comparison for the United States would be Canada, for a number of reasons... Both Canada and the U.S. have a similar standard of living and health care, both countries cover a large geographic region (with large population centers separated by sparsely populated areas), both countries have similar demographics, both countries are relatively isolated from Eurasia (which limits transmission of the disease from neighboring countries), and both countries have lower levels of governments (states/provinces) which often set their own rules for dealing with the pandemic.

Currently, the U.S. has ~600 deaths/million. Canada has ~250 deaths/million. So only about 42% of the death rate per capital in Canada. Since the U.S has had ~196,000 deaths, if they responded to Covid-19 the way Canada did, they would have only had ~81,000 deaths. In other words, they would have saved over 100,000 lives.

Now, there is no guarantee that Biden would have done exactly the same things that Canada's politicians did. And there is a certain amount of randomness involved too. (And I am sure you would still have idiotic governors in places like Texas and Florida who will fight against the 'godless Democrats who are taking away our fredumb'). But since the Democrats seem to be more willing to listen to experts (and biden was part of the Obama administration which handled other similar health care problems), I think its reasonable to assume they would have reacted better than Stubby McBonespurs and his band of deplorables.

See: Statista
I think the major material differences in outcome between the US and Canada are due to 1) rebellious nature of US inhabitants and 2) population density in major metro areas.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 02:26 PM   #2613
Delphic Oracle
Illuminator
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 4,943
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
There are a whole lot of factors that affect virus transmission and mitigation, and only a very few are things that can be influenced by politics. Fairly invasive and/or authoritarian measures can be very effective... but those measures are unlikely to be applicable in the US, or even in the majority of Europe.

You seem to blame a lot of the US experience on Trump. He's been a childish and petty blowhard about it, certainly. But at the end of the day, what he said on TV seems to have had very little to do with how people behaved. He had virtually no impact on the decisions that independent states made on when to lock down, or how stringently to do so. He may have had some marginal influence on some people as to whether or not to wear a mask (or to drink bleach), but the vast majority of people who have opposed lock-downs, business closures, and masks are people who oppose those actions on either pre-existing philosophical stances, or on economic factors (less so for masks).

Mother natures gives f-all about politics.
Despite the monumental body of evidence to the contrary, apparently leadership has no influence on the behavior of groups.

Sure.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 02:39 PM   #2614
xjx388
Philosopher
 
xjx388's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 8,608
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Despite the monumental body of evidence to the contrary, apparently leadership has no influence on the behavior of groups.

Sure.
It does have an influence. But other things have an influence too.

Would President Clinton have had the leadership necessary to make Texas stay locked down? Will President Biden? I don't know. I think any extended lockdown encouraged by any POTUS would have faced big resistance from the same people who forced State leaders to capitulate -big business and angry "freedumb" fighters.

What I do know is that Gov. Abbott in Texas did not allow local governments to extend shutdowns beyond his orders. That impacted my community directly because we are perhaps the hardest hit community in Texas. Local leaders ordered a toothless shelter in place and no one listened. I don't know that Abbott or much of the people of Texas would have acted any differently had Trump been a better leader.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 03:03 PM   #2615
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 14,991
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
There are a whole lot of factors that affect virus transmission and mitigation
Clearly.

Quote:
... and only a very few are things that can be influenced by politics.
So says you. Expert opinion, and even studies, suggest otherwise. Masks are effective. Trump has politicized mask wearing. He has opposed the experts in word and deed. There's a sharp political divide when it comes to actually wearing masks.

To appreciate how mindless the many cultists are, consider the fact that health departments all over the country fielded calls about ingesting household disinfectant. Some of these geniuses actually ingested.

Quote:
Fairly invasive and/or authoritarian measures can be very effective... but those measures are unlikely to be applicable in the US, or even in the majority of Europe.
When the leader of a country discourages simple, effective measures, it's going to impact compliance. When the followers of said leader are mindless cultists, all the more so.

Never mind the crowded, indoor, maskless rallies. If Herman Cain's zombie twitter doesn't mind, why should we?

This much is for sure: You've done a whole lot of arm waving at the facts. And the support you've provided for your affirmative claim amounts to a whole lot of self-serving opinion.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
My authority is total - Trump

Last edited by varwoche; 16th September 2020 at 03:21 PM.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 03:27 PM   #2616
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 12,641
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
And the support you've provided for your affirmative claim amounts to a whole lot of self-serving opinion.
Self serving in what way?
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 04:06 PM   #2617
Delphic Oracle
Illuminator
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 4,943
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Self serving in what way?
If the self-serving charge is retracted, do you accept the rest of it?

The things some people focus on...
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 04:12 PM   #2618
Delvo
Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: North Tonawanda, NY
Posts: 8,824
Anybody trying the "but there are other factors too" defense is just showing their desperation to come up with some way, any way, to defend their Dear Leader. That's the direst straw-grasping I've seen in ages. There are no other possible reasons to trot out nonsense of that depth & magnitude, whether the trotter admits it or not. It's practically a cult membership card.
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 04:14 PM   #2619
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 14,991
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Self serving in what way?
All the "researching and monitoring" you're conducting, for which there is precious little to show.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
My authority is total - Trump
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 04:32 PM   #2620
Roger Ramjets
Illuminator
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,955
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
You seem to blame a lot of the US experience on Trump. He's been a childish and petty blowhard about it, certainly. But at the end of the day, what he said on TV seems to have had very little to do with how people behaved.
Demonstrably false.

Quote:
He had virtually no impact on the decisions that independent states made on when to lock down, or how stringently to do so.
Also not true.

Quote:
He may have had some marginal influence on some people as to whether or not to wear a mask (or to drink bleach), but the vast majority of people who have opposed lock-downs, business closures, and masks are people who oppose those actions on either pre-existing philosophical stances, or on economic factors (less so for masks).
Again, not true.

Quote:
Mother natures gives f-all about politics.
But people do.

I'm pretty sure Trump misspoke when he talked about 'herd mentality', but it may also have been a Freudian slip. The truth is, people do tend to do what their leaders tell them when those leaders are revered. The vast majority of those 'people with pre-existing philosophical stances' would have listened to Trump because he is their ideological leader. And Trump would have had no problem telling them whatever lies were needed to get them on board.

But instead he played down the virus and played up the opposition, threatened States if they didn't open up, fired any official who didn't agree with him, and constantly tweeted Covid-denying lies. And people listened.

Leadership comes from the top. We saw how Trump used fear and populism to get elected and increase his power and influence. We saw how his supporters changed their minds about issues depending on what his position was at the time. We saw how Republicans cowed down to him. As president, Trump had the power and the adulation to get people doing the right thing. But he didn't want that. He wanted them to oppose lock-downs, business closures, and masks. And they did as he wanted.

Conservatives have the 'herd mentality' that Trump says will make the virus go away. Ironically, he used it to do the opposite.
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.

Last edited by Roger Ramjets; 16th September 2020 at 04:34 PM.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 04:59 PM   #2621
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 12,641
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
All the "researching and monitoring" you're conducting, for which there is precious little to show.
I'm currently stuck in limbo. My actuarial forum has a wealth of information on the topic, as well as detailed discussion. That's where the bulk of the information is. At the moment, however, the entire forum has blinked out of existence... which is highly frustrating. I will try to find some of them for you.

Aside from that, how are you considering it self-serving? Are you assuming that I'm just making things up out of farts and wishes? For what possible reason would I do this?
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 05:03 PM   #2622
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 12,641
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Demonstrably false.

Also not true.

Again, not true.

But people do.

I'm pretty sure Trump misspoke when he talked about 'herd mentality', but it may also have been a Freudian slip. The truth is, people do tend to do what their leaders tell them when those leaders are revered. ...
Okay, let's provisionally accept this as true.

If so, then what's up with the UK? Spain? France? Are those leaders giving bad information to their population? Is that why those countries havev seen very poor outcomes form COVID, and why they're currently seeing increases in case rates?

Are the leaders of those countries as bad as Trump? Or worse if we look at the case rate levels and trends in Spain and France?
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 09:14 PM   #2623
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 83,115
Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
To answer your direct question to SG, yes, he is. (Click on the Twitter photo at the link for a bigger version) But, sure, the Hill could have used a better photo (with their Tweet, not their "story," which didn't have that photo at all), and that's what is important.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ff80b6a263.jpg
Thanks. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say Zig could have easily checked the facts before accusing me of being mistaken.

I dunno, maybe jumping to a biased false conclusion that I was acting on partisan biased conclusion seemed like low hanging fruit to him at the time.

I'm pretty sure that one doesn't need confirmation bias to conclude Trump is massively mishandling this pandemic.


And on that note, Trump continues his magical thinking: the virus will go away, a vaccine will be out any minute now, there's no big threat here, it's just like a bad flu. Therefore no one needs any lockdowns or masks/social distancing.
__________________
ORANGE MAN BAD? Why yes, yes he is.

Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 10:23 PM   #2624
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 83,115
Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Honestly, I hope Joe Biden polishes up his speaking.

Not gonna lie he looks old as hell and is a shell of himself from even just a couple years back.

Trump in the ABC town hall looked pretty sharp.
Eye of the beholder immediately comes to mind.

Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Yeah. Perception matters a bit more than reality though.
Why yes, I do believe that explains it.
__________________
ORANGE MAN BAD? Why yes, yes he is.

Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 16th September 2020 at 10:25 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 11:23 PM   #2625
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
 
a_unique_person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 42,673
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Slim majority of likely voters feel that both Trump and Biden are "mentally unfit" to serve.



Don't say nobody warned you. A battle of addled geezers, I'm sure turnout is going to be great...

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/09/cnbc...play-poll.html
They had to look high and low to find someone older than Trump but they succeeded.
__________________
Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
ďPerception is real, but the truth is not.Ē - Imelda Marcos
a_unique_person is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2020, 07:44 AM   #2626
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 16,069
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Quote:
Actually the better comparison for the United States would be Canada, for a number of reasons... Both Canada and the U.S. have a similar standard of living and health care, both countries cover a large geographic region (with large population centers separated by sparsely populated areas), both countries have similar demographics, both countries are relatively isolated from Eurasia (which limits transmission of the disease from neighboring countries), and both countries have lower levels of governments (states/provinces) which often set their own rules for dealing with the pandemic.

Currently, the U.S. has ~600 deaths/million. Canada has ~250 deaths/million. So only about 42% of the death rate per capital in Canada. Since the U.S has had ~196,000 deaths, if they responded to Covid-19 the way Canada did, they would have only had ~81,000 deaths. In other words, they would have saved over 100,000 lives.
The main reason Canada isn't a great comparison to the US is population density. Canada's pop./sqkm = 4; US = 34.
You make it sound like all Canadians live in equally spaced houses a half KM apart.

Population density is irrelevant, for a couple of reasons.

First of all, one of the reasons we have a low population density is because we have huge areas where pretty much nobody lives or travels to or through. (I know this happens in every country). The vast majority of people live within a couple of thousand KM of our southern border, and if you compare the population density of that area with the U.S., I suspect they will be much more comparable. (For example, the population density of Ontario is 14 people/sq.)

Secondly, the point that I was making is that there is significant geographic distances between population centers (distances that make regular travel between them on a regular basis difficult). Whether it is because the space between the cities is 100km or 200km is irrelevant.... people just can't or won't travel between them. (At least not as a simple daily commute/activity.)

Lastly, even if you think population density is somehow important, I said that Canada was a better country to compare with, not that it was a perfect comparison. The EU also has a different population density than the U.S.

Quote:
Canada has 5 cities over 1 million pop and 30 cities of 100k; the US has 10 over 1 million and at least 100 over 100k.
Not sure what your point is.

The U.S. has more population, naturally it will have more cities. We were talking about per-capita deaths.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot

Last edited by Segnosaur; 17th September 2020 at 08:02 AM. Reason: Clarified some points
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2020, 08:00 AM   #2627
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 16,069
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Re: Covid Deaths, and Canada's lower per capita death rate
Quote:
Actually the better comparison for the United States would be Canada, for a number of reasons...
I think the major material differences in outcome between the US and Canada are due to 1) rebellious nature of US inhabitants
Yes, its true that there are a lot of people in the U.S. that are worried about "our freedumb". (Those people do exist in Canada too, although admittedly in smaller numbers.)

But Trump is president... it was his job to provide guidance, to show that (for example) wearing masks wasn't inconsistent with personal liberties. Plus, many of Trump's other failures (such as removal of CDC workers from China, who could have monitored the situation there) had nothing to do with "Mah Freedumb". Even if Biden couldn't convince the idiots from rural oklahoma that "mask wearing isn't a prelude to satanism", he still would have done a better job than the path of "reopen everything" that Trump seems to be on.
Quote:
and 2) population density in major metro areas.
The population density in Toronto and Montreal is ~4500 people/sqkm. While some areas of New York may have higher densities, its pretty compatible with places like Boston, Los Angeles, Chicago, etc.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2020, 08:34 AM   #2628
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 21,185
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
The main reason Canada isn't a great comparison to the US is population density. Canada's pop./sqkm = 4; US = 34. Canada has 5 cities over 1 million pop and 30 cities of 100k; the US has 10 over 1 million and at least 100 over 100k.

It's very hard to compare countries for a host of reasons and population density is a big one.
And the EU is much more dense than the US.

Maybe average the EU and Canada together an do we look good in comparison?
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2020, 08:36 AM   #2629
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 21,185
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I don't know that Abbott or much of the people of Texas would have acted any differently had Trump been a better leader.
I think Abbott would have done whatever Trump told him to do. If Trump had said "make masks mandatory" they would have been. Sure, half of them would have been confederate flags, but still, a mask is a mask.
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2020, 08:42 AM   #2630
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 21,185
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Okay, let's provisionally accept this as true.

If so, then what's up with the UK? Spain? France? Are those leaders giving bad information to their population? Is that why those countries havev seen very poor outcomes form COVID, and why they're currently seeing increases in case rates?

Are the leaders of those countries as bad as Trump? Or worse if we look at the case rate levels and trends in Spain and France?
Yes.

They also suffer from poor leadership and inadequate initial responses.

That is kind of the point of this whole conversation: poor leadership and inadequate initial responses have lead to excess deaths in many countries, the US is one of those countries.
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2020, 08:42 AM   #2631
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 13,443
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Okay, let's provisionally accept this as true.

If so, then what's up with the UK? Spain? France? Are those leaders giving bad information to their population? Is that why those countries havev seen very poor outcomes form COVID, and why they're currently seeing increases in case rates?

Are the leaders of those countries as bad as Trump? Or worse if we look at the case rate levels and trends in Spain and France?
How does any other countryís performance at all mitigate Trumpís documented failures?
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2020, 08:46 AM   #2632
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 13,443
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'm currently stuck in limbo. My actuarial forum has a wealth of information on the topic, as well as detailed discussion. That's where the bulk of the information is. At the moment, however, the entire forum has blinked out of existence... which is highly frustrating. I will try to find some of them for you.

Aside from that, how are you considering it self-serving? Are you assuming that I'm just making things up out of farts and wishes? For what possible reason would I do this?
No one is just going to take you at your word. Thatís not how this works. You really, really should know that by now.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2020, 08:53 AM   #2633
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 16,069
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Would President Clinton have had the leadership necessary to make Texas stay locked down? Will President Biden? I don't know. I think any extended lockdown encouraged by any POTUS would have faced big resistance from the same people who forced State leaders to capitulate -big business and angry "freedumb" fighters.
Keep in mind that many of those "freedumb" fighters were probably the same people who quite happily accepted the Patriot Act in post 9/11 America.

Reminds me of the joke following Trump having protesters tear-gassed.... All those gun rights nuts who thought they needed to protect themselves from government abuse forgot "oh yeah, we were supposed to be objecting to the government hurting people".

In other words, I suspect that many of them are idiots... easily manipulated.

And as I pointed out before... there were other things that Clinton or Biden would have done to limit the effects of the Pandemic that had nothing to do with "mah Freedumb"... improved testing early on (such as using the WHO test when there were problems with the CDC tests). Keep CDC workers embedded in China. Build up stockpiles of PPE. Better distribution of Covid-19 economic relief.

Would Biden do that stuff? Probably... he was part of the Obama administration when they dealt with H1N1, and probably recognizes the importance of proper responses.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2020, 09:05 AM   #2634
WingerII
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 77
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Canada has 5 cities over 1 million pop and 30 cities of 100k; the US has 10 over 1 million and at least 100 over 100k.
If the US has 9x the population but only 2-3x the number of large cities, it seems that the Canadian population tends to cluster more densely than the US.
WingerII is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2020, 11:12 AM   #2635
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 18,542
As promised last month for mid-September, a new document drop happened in Ukraine yesterday. Lots of details about Biden's protection money scheme and the general looting of Ukraine by Washington in pre- and post-Maidan times. The Ukrainians are not amused, the Trumpians are.
__________________
Audiatur et altera pars
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2020, 11:19 AM   #2636
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 25,898
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
You make it sound like all Canadians live in equally spaced houses a half KM apart.

Population density is irrelevant, for a couple of reasons.

First of all, one of the reasons we have a low population density is because we have huge areas where pretty much nobody lives or travels to or through. (I know this happens in every country). The vast majority of people live within a couple of thousand KM of our southern border, and if you compare the population density of that area with the U.S., I suspect they will be much more comparable. (For example, the population density of Ontario is 14 people/sq.)

Secondly, the point that I was making is that there is significant geographic distances between population centers (distances that make regular travel between them on a regular basis difficult). Whether it is because the space between the cities is 100km or 200km is irrelevant.... people just can't or won't travel between them. (At least not as a simple daily commute/activity.)

Lastly, even if you think population density is somehow important, I said that Canada was a better country to compare with, not that it was a perfect comparison. The EU also has a different population density than the U.S.


Not sure what your point is.

The U.S. has more population, naturally it will have more cities. We were talking about per-capita deaths.
Small correction...actually it's huge.

86% of Canadian citizens live within 150 miles (241 km) of the US border and vast stretches of even that is sparsely populated.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2020, 11:20 AM   #2637
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 25,898
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
As promised last month for mid-September, a new document drop happened in Ukraine yesterday. Lots of details about Biden's protection money scheme and the general looting of Ukraine by Washington in pre- and post-Maidan times. The Ukrainians are not amused, the Trumpians are.
Yawn. Try as you might. The rest of us think this is Trump bs.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2020, 01:18 PM   #2638
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 18,542
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Yawn. Try as you might. The rest of us think this is Trump bs.

The rest of us thought Killary would win and the more deranged among us think Biden will win.

I would have given you the source, but facebook was down.

Have fun "investigating".
__________________
Audiatur et altera pars
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2020, 01:23 PM   #2639
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 25,898
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
The rest of us thought Killary would win and the more deranged among us think Biden will win.

I would have given you the source, but facebook was down.

Have fun "investigating".
I won't be. I'm convinced it is nonsense. You've been selling this crap for years. Let me know when they write about on MSNBC or the NY Times.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2020, 01:28 PM   #2640
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 18,542
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I won't be. I'm convinced it is nonsense. You've been selling this crap for years. Let me know when they write about on MSNBC or the NY Times.

LOL, I don't consume fake news so you will have to tell me when these rags start to report on it. At this point, though - when you are told about it - the rest of us will already know.
__________________
Audiatur et altera pars
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:15 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.