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Tags 2020 elections , joe biden , presidential candidates

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Old 30th May 2020, 01:33 PM   #241
SuburbanTurkey
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
According to the article, the case was referred to a grand jury, which did not return an indictment. Further, the grand jury did not arrive at its decision until after Klobuchar had left the prosecutor's office.

Given that referring such cases to a grand jury was the due process in that jurisdiction at the time, I don't see how she can be held responsible for that outcome.

Did Klobuchar have a history of skipping the grand jury and bringing charges directly, but opted not to do so in this case?


If I read the story correctly, I'm not sure "people of color" are owed any appeasement over this particular case.
Given that people are currently demonstrating against the exact system that routinely fails to hold killer cops accountable, "due process at the time" is not a compelling explanation.
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Old 30th May 2020, 02:04 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Given that people are currently demonstrating against the exact system that routinely fails to hold killer cops accountable, "due process at the time" is not a compelling explanation.
Grand juries for prosecution of serious crimes seems like a reasonable due process to me.

Are you opposed to grand juries in general, or just when police officers are accused?

Do you favor grand juries, but still think Klobuchar should have done something different anyway, somehow? If so, what?

What do you think happens to minorities accused of serious crimes, if we get rid of the grand jury process?

Also, this is a thread about Biden. Specifically we're talking about Klobuchar's viability as a VP pick. Do you think it's fair to blame Klobuchar for the outcome of the system?
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Old 30th May 2020, 02:54 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Ah yes, "the grand jury made me do it" defense.

I'm sure that will appease people of color, especially since such insightful reasoning has never been offered before.
On Oct. 27, 2006, Chauvin was involved, along with other officers, in the shooting death of Wayne Reyes. The officers had responded to a domestic dispute where Reyes allegedly stabbed his girlfriend and a friend. Reyes took off in his truck. When he was stopped, he got out of his truck and allegedly pulled out a rifle. That is when he was shot. The Chauvin case didn't go to the grand jury until 2008. Klobuchar left the prosecutor's office in Dec. 2006. In what way is she responsible for that case?
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Klobuchar's reliance on grand juries was in step with her peers nationwide
https://www.apmreports.org/story/201...nty-prosecutor

Sending police involved cases to a grand jury had been used for decades in Klobuchar's county before her time in office. It wasn't until 2016, ten years after Klobuchar had left, that the prosecutor's office said they would no longer use grand juries in police involved cases.

Can Klobuchar still be criticized for using grand juries? Sure. As a prosecutor she could still have chosen to indict over a g. jury's decision or even skip the grand jury altogether. I think a pertinent question would be to ask if she ever did so. If not, then she was following an already in place process consistently.

I think there is too much of a conflict of interest when it comes to grand juries and police involved incidents because police have a working relationship with the prosecutor's office. It is true that g juries rarely decide to indict police officers. But in the Chauvin case, I think it's unfair to declare that she refused to indict him.
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Old 30th May 2020, 03:41 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Grand juries for prosecution of serious crimes seems like a reasonable due process to me.

Are you opposed to grand juries in general, or just when police officers are accused?

Do you favor grand juries, but still think Klobuchar should have done something different anyway, somehow? If so, what?

What do you think happens to minorities accused of serious crimes, if we get rid of the grand jury process?

Also, this is a thread about Biden. Specifically we're talking about Klobuchar's viability as a VP pick. Do you think it's fair to blame Klobuchar for the outcome of the system?
There's an expression that a DA could get a grand jury to "indict a ham sandwhich". It's absurdly easy to get an indictment from a grand jury for all suspects but the cops for some reason.

The routine no-billing from grand juries has been a long bone of contention. DA's kick the decision over to the grand jury and then phone in their argument resulting in a no-bill.

Klobuchar's record as DA was tough on petty crime, and lenient on police killings.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...5e6_story.html
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Old 30th May 2020, 03:51 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
...
By all means Biden should take the high road, but there still needs to be a PAC or something putting out ads reminding people that even Trump's own staff call him a ******* moron.
This ^.


Trump picked Pence for the sole reason of laying claim to the Evangelical vote. So sometimes the VP choice really does bring voters along.
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Old 30th May 2020, 03:55 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
She. Was. No. Longer. In. The. Office. At. That. Time.
Well you know how it is when you start a rumor, some people that run with it can't change direction after that.
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Old 30th May 2020, 04:02 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Well you know how it is when you start a rumor, some people that run with it can't change direction after that.
So true.
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Old 30th May 2020, 04:38 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Given that people are currently demonstrating against the exact system that routinely fails to hold killer cops accountable, "due process at the time" is not a compelling explanation.
I agree this will not be a compelling argument for "people" who are driven by emotion and not attentive to facts.
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Old 30th May 2020, 04:41 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I agree this will not be a compelling argument for "people" who are driven by emotion and not attentive to facts.
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Old 30th May 2020, 05:20 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I agree this will not be a compelling argument for "people" who are driven by emotion and not attentive to facts.
Yes, people tend to get emotional about the fact that police kill with impunity.
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Old 30th May 2020, 05:41 PM   #251
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Waiting for interest in the case to wane before finally sweeping it all under the rug is part of the grand jury shuffle.

Of course what politician doesn't appreciate getting a promotion before certain chickens come home to roost.
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Old 30th May 2020, 06:01 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yes, people tend to get emotional about the fact that police kill with impunity.
Indeed.

Are you saying you're too emotional to deal with facts?

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Waiting for interest in the case to wane before finally sweeping it all under the rug is part of the grand jury shuffle.

Of course what politician doesn't appreciate getting a promotion before certain chickens come home to roost.
Don't worry. The odds that Klobuchar will be chosen are nil.

That said, way to double-down on your lie. That's in vogue these days.
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Old 30th May 2020, 06:01 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The Senate is pie-in-the-sky until 2022. Only a massive Blue Wave will flip it in November.
I don't think its as far-fetched as you might think...

There are 3, maybe 4 republican-held seats that could potentially be flipped (and one Democratic seat that will probably turn republican...).

The Democrats are likely to lose their seat in Alabama (unless something strange happens, like republican infighting during the primaries somehow sabotages their candidate).

On the other hand, the republicans have to worry about:
- Maine: Susan Collins has one of the highest disapproval ratings (due in large part to her support of Kavanaugh)
- Arizona: The current republican senator was an appointee, after having lost in her previous election attempt, and she has trailed in all recent polls
- Colorado: They have a republican senator, but the state went for Clinton in 2016 (and the current incumbent is trailing in recent polls)

There is even a chance that they could win North Carolina (the state went for Trump in 2016, but the polls seem to be split between the Republicans and Democrats). Heck, even Montana (normally a solid republican state) is seeing the Republican incumbent trailing the Democrats.

And of course even if they end up in a tie, if they also win the white house then the VP becomes the tiebreaker.

(Wiki)

Granted, I think its an outside chance (and I've certainly been disappointed before)... but its certainly not a 'pie in the sky' chance.
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So let's focus on getting the White House, because if you don't get that, you won't get the Senate, either, and the takeover of the Judiciary will continue.
On the other hand, if they win the white house but don't take the senate, obstruction by senate republicans will continue. I wouldn't even put it past Moscow Mitch to block any judicial nominations from a Biden administration for the next 2 years.
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Old 30th May 2020, 06:04 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yes, people tend to get emotional about the fact that police kill with impunity.
We are talking specifically about your claim that Klobuchar refused to prosecute Chauvin. You are straw manning this specific case into all police involved cases that have not been prosecuted. That is classic straw man argument.

Remember that an investigation must be done and that can take varying amounts of time before a prosecutor decides whether charges are warranted.

Given that the Oct. 27, 2006 Chauvin et al case was not even sent to the grand jury until over a year after Klobuchar had left office, would you care to explain just how you hold Klobuchar responsible?
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Old 30th May 2020, 06:09 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
We are talking specifically about your claim that Klobuchar refused to prosecute Chauvin. You are straw manning this specific case into all police involved cases that have not been prosecuted. That is classic straw man argument.

Remember that an investigation must be done and that can take varying amounts of time before a prosecutor decides whether charges are warranted.

Given that the Oct. 27, 2006 Chauvin et al case was not even sent to the grand jury until over a year after Klobuchar had left office, would you care to explain just how you hold Klobuchar responsible?
Ok. I concede that Klobuchar isn't responsible for Chauvin's easy treatment in 2006. She was already out the door by the time it got to her desk.

Who cares? The broader point is that DA's are a cog in the larger machine that enables police violence. Klobuchar didn't prosecute cops. Klobuchar was not exceptional in her tenure as a DA, because preferential treatment for criminal cops is standard practice.

It's becoming increasingly clear that tough on crime DA's are no longer the career builder for aspiring Democrats. Kamala and now Klobuchar are suffering political consequences for the roles they played as prosecutors. This is a good thing.
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Old 30th May 2020, 06:18 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Waiting for interest in the case to wane before finally sweeping it all under the rug is part of the grand jury shuffle.

Of course what politician doesn't appreciate getting a promotion before certain chickens come home to roost.
Are you suggesting Klobuchar used this (alleged) tactic? Seeing how she was elected to the Senate on Nov. 7, 2006 (20 days before the Chauvin involved shooting), I rather doubt it. Chances are she pretty much handed over her prosecutor role to the Assistant County Attorney during those last 2 months as she was getting ready to move to DC as Sen. Klobuchar.
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Old 30th May 2020, 06:22 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It's becoming increasingly clear that tough on crime DA's are no longer the career builder for aspiring Democrats.
Well, to nitpick... I think being a 'tough on crime DA' would actually be a good thing, if that is actually what they were doing.

After all, a cop who uses excessive force is committing a crime, so if a DA were 'tough on crime' they would go after that cop. (Same with certain white-collar crimes, like tax fraud, which often get little attention.)

The problem is the phrase 'tough on crime' seems to have come to mean "touch on some crimes, easy on others".
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Old 30th May 2020, 06:22 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Ok. I concede that Klobuchar isn't responsible for Chauvin's easy treatment in 2006. She was already out the door by the time it got to her desk.
Great. And that is the ONLY thing I disputed in your original post.

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Who cares?
Those who care about accuracy.
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The broader point is that DA's are a cog in the larger machine that enables police violence. Klobuchar didn't prosecute cops. Klobuchar was not exceptional in her tenure as a DA, because preferential treatment for criminal cops is standard practice.

It's becoming increasingly clear that tough on crime DA's are no longer the career builder for aspiring Democrats. Kamala and now Klobuchar are suffering political consequences for the roles they played as prosecutors.
I am not arguing, and have not argued, against that.
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Old 30th May 2020, 07:12 PM   #259
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Not meaning to be cynical, but after the events of this week I will be shocked as if by 1000 volts if Biden doesn’t go with a woman of color.
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Old 30th May 2020, 07:41 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
Not meaning to be cynical, but after the events of this week I will be shocked as if by 1000 volts if Biden doesn’t go with a woman of color.
Agreed. And I think Klobuchar is out and maybe Harris. Abrams is looking good.
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Old 30th May 2020, 11:10 PM   #261
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Trump's response earlier today: "MAGA love black people."

I don't think that is going to be a vote winning slogan.
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Old 30th May 2020, 11:39 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Agreed. And I think Klobuchar is out and maybe Harris. Abrams is looking good.
My main concern with Abrams is that she doesn't have a long history of high profile electoral success.

Yes, she served in her state's legislature, but she has never served at the federal level, and she lost the election for governor. (Granted it was an election in a rather backwards state, and the Republicans did crank up the dirty tricks, like voter suppression... Still, it limits her visibility and experience.)

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Old 31st May 2020, 12:06 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
My main concern with Abrams is that she doesn't have a long history of high profile electoral success.

Yes, she served in her state's legislature, but she has never served at the federal level, and she lost the election for governor. (Granted it was an election in a rather backwards state, and the Republicans did crank up the dirty tricks, like voter suppression... Still, it limits her visibility and experience.)

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Lack of ANY governing experience at any level didn't hurt Trump with voters. Abrams is brilliant. Hearing her being interviewed, she impressed me.
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Old 31st May 2020, 12:23 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Lack of ANY governing experience at any level didn't hurt Trump with voters. Abrams is brilliant. Hearing her being interviewed, she impressed me.
True, stubby Mcbonespurs won despite never having ever been elected.

But he did benefit from:
- a tv show that gave a false impression of a successful business man, and increased his national profile
- a favorable electoral college and Russian assistance

I think the suggestion that "just because trump did it it will work for the democrats" is a risky proposition. The trump/Republican and democratic voter bases are different.

(Note: I am not criticizing Abram's policies or abilities... Just commenting on how her particular history might affect her.)

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Old 31st May 2020, 03:23 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
True, stubby Mcbonespurs won despite never having ever been elected.

But he did benefit from:
- a tv show that gave a false impression of a successful business man, and increased his national profile
- a favorable electoral college and Russian assistance

I think the suggestion that "just because trump did it it will work for the democrats" is a risky proposition. The trump/Republican and democratic voter bases are different.

(Note: I am not criticizing Abram's policies or abilities... Just commenting on how her particular history might affect her.)

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You could overcome that by putting her front and center as leading an effort to reinvent policing in this country, something we clearly need to do. The advantage of her not being a governor or prosecutor is that she's never been a chief executive responsible for a police force. That means that no one over whom she had oversight has ever killed someone by kneeling on their neck.
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Old 31st May 2020, 06:18 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
There's an expression that a DA could get a grand jury to "indict a ham sandwhich". It's absurdly easy to get an indictment from a grand jury for all suspects but the cops for some reason.

The routine no-billing from grand juries has been a long bone of contention. DA's kick the decision over to the grand jury and then phone in their argument resulting in a no-bill.

Klobuchar's record as DA was tough on petty crime, and lenient on police killings.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...5e6_story.html
I'm aware of the ham sandwich meme. I was hoping you'd answer my questions.
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Old 31st May 2020, 06:35 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
My main concern with Abrams is that she doesn't have a long history of high profile electoral success.

Yes, she served in her state's legislature, but she has never served at the federal level, and she lost the election for governor. (Granted it was an election in a rather backwards state, and the Republicans did crank up the dirty tricks, like voter suppression... Still, it limits her visibility and experience.)

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I like her a lot. But for these reasons, I'm betting on Val Demmings. Or is her LE background a tough sell?
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Old 31st May 2020, 06:58 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I like her a lot. But for these reasons, I'm betting on Val Demmings. Or is her LE background a tough sell?
Her wikipedia page currently has a conservative editor "helpfully" adding links to all the abuse of force incidents during her time as Chief of Orlando PD. I wouldn't put money on her selection.
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Old 31st May 2020, 07:07 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm aware of the ham sandwich meme. I was hoping you'd answer my questions.
Klobuchar could have decided to as vigorously prosecute criminal cops as she did other crimes, all without the use of a Grand Jury.
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Old 31st May 2020, 09:37 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Trump's response earlier today: "MAGA love black people."

I don't think that is going to be a vote winning slogan.
If the quote is accurate, then are we to parse it as, "Make America Great Again love black people?" Well, I guess we're to take it that MAGA is no longer a call to action, but instead is now the homogenized, corporeal conglomeration of the many millions of Drumpf's rabble. And that this blended basket of deplorables is sympatico with the non-MAGA people of color who are in opposition to the prime MAGAite. Yeah, makes sense.
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Old 31st May 2020, 10:07 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
If the quote is accurate, then are we to parse it as, "Make America Great Again love black people?" Well, I guess we're to take it that MAGA is no longer a call to action, but instead is now the homogenized, corporeal conglomeration of the many millions of Drumpf's rabble. And that this blended basket of deplorables is sympatico with the non-MAGA people of color who are in opposition to the prime MAGAite. Yeah, makes sense.

It is accurate.
Quote:
“MAGA is ‘Make America Great Again'” he repeated. “By the way, they love African-American people. They love black people. MAGA loves the black people. I heard that MAGA wanted to be there. A lot of MAGA was going there be there. I have no idea if that’s true or not but they love our country.”
https://www.rawstory.com/2020/05/mag...a-night-tweet/

It's pretty clear that Trump considers MAGA the shorthand description of the movement he leads. Kinda like Nazi or KKK.

Last edited by Bob001; 31st May 2020 at 10:08 AM.
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Old 31st May 2020, 10:36 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Agreed. And I think Klobuchar is out and maybe Harris. Abrams is looking good.
Not many Americans would think of Abrams -- with her limited accomplishments at this stage of her life -- as sitting in the White House. She is just not a national figure in the same sense that a governor or senator is. There are two Senate seats on the Georgia ballot this year; why isn't Abrams running for that? The only goal in 2020 is to beat Trump. Abrams can't help him do that in the way that Warren, Harris and others could, but she might cause potential Biden voters to stay home, particularly in the states that Biden most needs to win.

Last edited by Bob001; 31st May 2020 at 10:38 AM.
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Old 31st May 2020, 10:51 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I like her a lot. But for these reasons, I'm betting on Val Demmings. Or is her LE background a tough sell?
Right now, I think anyone with a history of law enforcement that includes connections to police brutality would be a hard sell to a lot of Democrats, especially African Americans.
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Old 31st May 2020, 11:18 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Not many Americans would think of Abrams -- with her limited accomplishments at this stage of her life -- as sitting in the White House. She is just not a national figure in the same sense that a governor or senator is. There are two Senate seats on the Georgia ballot this year; why isn't Abrams running for that? The only goal in 2020 is to beat Trump. Abrams can't help him do that in the way that Warren, Harris and others could, but she might cause potential Biden voters to stay home, particularly in the states that Biden most needs to win.
I disagree. Many VP picks have been people that weren't widely known outside their own state when selected as a running mate. Abrams is as well known, if not more so, than Val Demings. Frankly, I'd never heard of Demings until waroche mentioned her. I had to look her up. But I knew who Abrams was. This is largely due to all the national attention to the last Georgia governorship election. Abrams' record fighting gerrymandering and voter suppression in Georgia is impressive.

As for why she isn't running for a Senate seat, you'd have to ask her.

To claim that Abrams can't help win the elections the way 'Warren, Harris or others could' is just an opinion and not one agreed with by many. While I like Warren and think she would make a great VP, she is also needed in the Senate. Additionally, MA has a Rep. governor meaning that her Senate seat could be filled by a Republican. Since MA law requires a special election 140 to 160 days to elect a new senator, that means the appointed Republican senator would be in the Senate for several months. If the Dems are successful in narrowing the GOP Senate majority, one vote could be very important.

I just don't see Harris being the pick.
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Old 31st May 2020, 11:32 AM   #275
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If Harris and Demings are ruled out due to LE background, and Abrams is in play despite thin resume, then maybe Keisha Lance Bottoms, mayor of Atlanta, is also in play.
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Old 31st May 2020, 11:35 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
....
While I like Warren and think she would make a great VP, she is also needed in the Senate. Additionally, MA has a Rep. governor meaning that her Senate seat could be filled by a Republican. Since MA law requires a special election 140 to 160 days to elect a new senator, that means the appointed Republican senator would be in the Senate for several months. If the Dems are successful in narrowing the GOP Senate majority, one vote could be very important.
...
I made exactly the same point above about the Republican Massachusetts governor. I continue to contend that a role in a minor part-time state legislature is not a qualification to sit at the top of the federal government. If government experience doesn't matter, there are probably hundreds of prominent university presidents and professors, public interest lawyers, financial or environmental policy wonks and others who deserve consideration. Susan Rice has never held any elective office, but she is better qualified to be VP than many of the other candidates, including Abrams.

I want any Democrat to beat Trump, and I support any VP nominee who will improve his chances.
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Old 31st May 2020, 11:37 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I disagree. Many VP picks have been people that weren't widely known outside their own state when selected as a running mate. Abrams is as well known, if not more so, than Val Demings. Frankly, I'd never heard of Demings until waroche mentioned her. I had to look her up. But I knew who Abrams was. This is largely due to all the national attention to the last Georgia governorship election. Abrams' record fighting gerrymandering and voter suppression in Georgia is impressive.

As for why she isn't running for a Senate seat, you'd have to ask her.

To claim that Abrams can't help win the elections the way 'Warren, Harris or others could' is just an opinion and not one agreed with by many. While I like Warren and think she would make a great VP, she is also needed in the Senate. Additionally, MA has a Rep. governor meaning that her Senate seat could be filled by a Republican. Since MA law requires a special election 140 to 160 days to elect a new senator, that means the appointed Republican senator would be in the Senate for several months. If the Dems are successful in narrowing the GOP Senate majority, one vote could be very important.

I just don't see Harris being the pick.
Heh. I didn't hear about Abrams until her name came up as a possible Biden VP. And apparently that came about because she broke with convention to openly campaign for the pick.
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Old 31st May 2020, 11:43 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I made exactly the same point above about the Republican Massachusetts governor. I continue to contend that a role in a minor part-time state legislature is not a qualification to sit at the top of the federal government. If government experience doesn't matter, there are probably hundreds of prominent university presidents and professors, public interest lawyers, financial or environmental policy wonks and others who deserve consideration.
I see the presidency as being too broadly scoped, and at the same time far too specialized, for anyone to be properly qualified. That said, some are bound to do a better job than others.

I think the only thing that really disqualifies the other professionals you listed is their obvious lack of interest in pursuing such a career.

And while their specialties would qualify them to better handle certain narrow questions that arise when presidenting, those specialties would not actually equip them to come up with answers that do a good job of balancing all the broader concerns a president must consider. Probably the closest thing would be a state governor, the CEO of a large multinational, or a former Cabinet member. The ideal career path would probably be: CEO/Governor to Governor/CEO to Cabinet to President. But even that would be pretty freaking far from ideal, probably.

Which leads me back to the conclusion that the ideal president is simply the president who gets elected. Keeping in mind that the point of democracy is not to have good outcomes. It's to give the governed a say in their government. If they want to say stupid stuff, and democracy lets them, then democracy has succeeded in its goal. Installing a qualified unicorn over the protests of the electorate would be a failure of democracy.

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Old 31st May 2020, 11:58 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I made exactly the same point above about the Republican Massachusetts governor. I continue to contend that a role in a minor part-time state legislature is not a qualification to sit at the top of the federal government. If government experience doesn't matter, there are probably hundreds of prominent university presidents and professors, public interest lawyers, financial or environmental policy wonks and others who deserve consideration. Susan Rice has never held any elective office, but she is better qualified to be VP than many of the other candidates, including Abrams.

I want any Democrat to beat Trump, and I support any VP nominee who will improve his chances.
Wait. Are you saying the Georgia House of Representatives is "a minor part-time state legislature"? In what way is it either?

Abrams was a state rep. for 10 years and was also the minority leader from 2011 to 2017. I'd call that government experience. It's not federal but it is government experience.
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Old 31st May 2020, 12:00 PM   #280
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Minnesota: Trump vs. Biden
5/18 - 5/20 800 RV 3.5 49 Biden 44 Trump...Biden +5
not really a big margin
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/ep...iden-6966.html

Hillary just barely won Minnesota
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