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Tags donald trump , john bolton , lawsuits

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Old 16th June 2020, 06:27 PM   #1
Meadmaker
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Trump Sues Bolton over Book Release

Here is a news story about it.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/16/polit...uit/index.html

Basically, Trump says that Bolton's book hasn't been approved by the classification police. The book is reported to be a scathing indictment of the president. The lawsuit is a rather transparent ploy to delay release of the book until after the election.

I didn't think he would do it. It's just so transparent what he's up to, and it's such an extreme violation of freedom of the press. By suing, I think all he will accomplish is drawing a bit more attention to it. All the damage that could be done by it will be done anyway, and the juicy parts will all leak despite Trump's efforts.

Here is where I wish ISF hadn't turned into such an extreme echo chamber. I really would wonder what people who are favorably disposed toward Trump have to say about this. Anyway, it could be fun, so I thought it deserved its own thread to follow new details as they develop.
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Old 16th June 2020, 07:12 PM   #2
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I knew he would do it. He's already gone all in suing CNN over a poll he didn't like. Is the way he's lived his whole life.
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Old 16th June 2020, 07:17 PM   #3
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It’s humorously ironic that someone so fond of trying to exert legal force over others is himself a lifelong criminal.
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Old 16th June 2020, 07:35 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Here is a news story about it.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/16/polit...uit/index.html

Basically, Trump says that Bolton's book hasn't been approved by the classification police. The book is reported to be a scathing indictment of the president. The lawsuit is a rather transparent ploy to delay release of the book until after the election.

I didn't think he would do it. It's just so transparent what he's up to, and it's such an extreme violation of freedom of the press. By suing, I think all he will accomplish is drawing a bit more attention to it. All the damage that could be done by it will be done anyway, and the juicy parts will all leak despite Trump's efforts.

Here is where I wish ISF hadn't turned into such an extreme echo chamber. I really would wonder what people who are favorably disposed toward Trump have to say about this. Anyway, it could be fun, so I thought it deserved its own thread to follow new details as they develop.
Yep, every single bit of this book will be released to the public. They have already shipped the book to distribution centers. All it takes is somebody sliding a book to a reporter. A warehouse guy being handed $500 for a copy.
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Old 16th June 2020, 07:49 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
...I really would wonder what people who are favorably disposed toward Trump have to say about this...
There are no trump supporters in this forum -- or pretty much any forum -- who are going to make a thoughtful, honest reply. After four years of this nonsense I think that's pretty clear. I think most ISF members already know pretty much how the trump supporters are going to reply.

I'm more interested in this book, "Too Much and Never Enough: How My Family Created the World’s Most Dangerous Man," by one of trump's nieces, Mary L. Trump. Mary Trump holds a PhD from Adelphi University and taught graduate courses in trauma, psychopathology, and developmental psychology.
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New details have emerged about a book by Donald Trump’s niece, which its publisher says will “explain how her uncle became the man who now threatens the world’s health, economic security, and social fabric”. According to Simon & Schuster, Mary L Trump will describe “a nightmare of traumas, destructive relationships, and a tragic combination of neglect and abuse” that explain the inner workings of “one of the world’s most powerful and dysfunctional families”.

In turn, it was reported on Tuesday night that Trump is considering an attempt to stop the book being published, akin to his decision earlier in the day to go to court over former national security adviser John Bolton’s imminent tell-all. Link to Guardian news story
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Old 16th June 2020, 08:01 PM   #6
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Here is the part that I guess I don't understand: he is suing on the grounds that it "hasn't been approved by the classification police"

Why would he sue? Public dissemination of classified material is a criminal offense, not civil. Shoot, they sent the friggin FBI after Hilary Clinton searching for any possible security breach. So if Bolton shared classified material with a publisher who does not have security clearance, 1) arrest him and 2) have a judge order an injunction on the release of the book. A civil lawsuit makes no sense at all.

ETA: If the problem is that it is a violation of an NDA, then sure, you can sue Bolton if the book comes out. But that can't be used for an injunction on releasing the book - the President has the right to enforce the penalties for breaking the NDA, but he can't prevent Bolton from breaking it.
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Last edited by pgwenthold; 16th June 2020 at 08:05 PM.
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Old 16th June 2020, 08:13 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Here is the part that I guess I don't understand: he is suing on the grounds that it "hasn't been approved by the classification police"

Why would he sue? Public dissemination of classified material is a criminal offense, not civil. Shoot, they sent the friggin FBI after Hilary Clinton searching for any possible security breach. So if Bolton shared classified material with a publisher who does not have security clearance, 1) arrest him and 2) have a judge order an injunction on the release of the book. A civil lawsuit makes no sense at all.

ETA: If the problem is that it is a violation of an NDA, then sure, you can sue Bolton if the book comes out. But that can't be used for an injunction on releasing the book - the President has the right to enforce the penalties for breaking the NDA, but he can't prevent Bolton from breaking it.
An NDA to Trump in his capacity as POTUS is not worth the paper it is printed on. The only question is can Bolton be indicted over the release of classified info. Trump is saying everything he said to Bolton is classified.

But this is like closing the barn door after the horse got out.
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Old 16th June 2020, 08:16 PM   #8
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I think that the NDAs are unconstitutional. I think the entire vetting process is an unconstitutional pre-publication restraint. The very backbone of our democracy is free discourse about how our government is behaving. Any prior restraint interferes with the strong interest of the people to criticize our leaders. If the Revolutionary War was about anything, it was about replacing unelected kings with private individuals open to tremendous armchair-quarterbacking. The potential loss of the public's trust in its administration is the government's problem. If it wants to avoid expert critique, it should just do a better job for its boss, the American people.

However, I don't think the courts will make Bolton's case a test of the First Amendment. I think they'll say that Bolton substantially complied with the vetting process. He was approved. The statutes and orders creating that vetting system do not allow the government to come back and force a person through such process a second time.

In sum: the courts will allow the publication is a weaselly manner, rather than take up the entire question of the First Amendment.They may do it without even once citing the Pentagon Papers.
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Old 16th June 2020, 08:20 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
I think that the NDAs are unconstitutional. I think the entire vetting process is an unconstitutional pre-publication restraint. The very backbone of our democracy is free discourse about how our government is behaving. Any prior restraint interferes with the strong interest of the people to criticize our leaders. If the Revolutionary War was about anything, it was about replacing unelected kings with private individuals open to tremendous armchair-quarterbacking. The potential loss of the public's trust in its administration is the government's problem. If it wants to avoid expert critique, it should just do a better job for its boss, the American people.

However, I don't think the courts will make Bolton's case a test of the First Amendment. I think they'll say that Bolton substantially complied with the vetting process. He was approved. The statutes and orders creating that vetting system do not allow the government to come back and force a person through such process a second time.

In sum: the courts will allow the publication is a weaselly manner, rather than take up the entire question of the First Amendment.They may do it without even once citing the Pentagon Papers.
But I am not sure they are doing anything more in this suit but trying to delay its release until after the election.
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Old 16th June 2020, 08:21 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Here is the part that I guess I don't understand: he is suing on the grounds that it "hasn't been approved by the classification police"

Why would he sue?
To tie it up in court until after the election. Then it won't matter either way.

Grah! Ninja'd!
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Old 16th June 2020, 08:27 PM   #11
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What is abundantly clear is that Bolton has been trying to get his book cleared for a long time now, and Trump has been engaged in delaying instead of classifying.

Bolton knows how the process works, Trump knows how to make the process work for his agenda.
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Old 16th June 2020, 08:28 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
An NDA to Trump in his capacity as POTUS is not worth the paper it is printed on. The only question is can Bolton be indicted over the release of classified info. Trump is saying everything he said to Bolton is classified.
.
If the information is classified, then Bolton has already broken the law by sharing it with a publisher.

Why haven't they arrested him?

(that's rhetorical, of course, because it's based on a false premise)
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Old 16th June 2020, 08:39 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Here is the part that I guess I don't understand: he is suing on the grounds that it "hasn't been approved by the classification police"

Why would he sue? Public dissemination of classified material is a criminal offense, not civil. Shoot, they sent the friggin FBI after Hilary Clinton searching for any possible security breach. So if Bolton shared classified material with a publisher who does not have security clearance, 1) arrest him and 2) have a judge order an injunction on the release of the book. A civil lawsuit makes no sense at all.

ETA: If the problem is that it is a violation of an NDA, then sure, you can sue Bolton if the book comes out. But that can't be used for an injunction on releasing the book - the President has the right to enforce the penalties for breaking the NDA, but he can't prevent Bolton from breaking it.
That thought occurred to me as well. (i.e. why a civil suit?)

I think the answer is just plain harassment. It might be that there is some sort of enforceable provision that caries civil, but not criminal, penalties. It might be that the stories in the media are sparse on detail and there's some complicated legalisms going on.

Or, Trump could just be a doofus trying to exert authority he doesn't have, and he has already fired all the good lawyers who might be willing to say, "Sorry Mr. President. There's nothing you can do."
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Old 16th June 2020, 08:45 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
That thought occurred to me as well. (i.e. why a civil suit?)

I think the answer is just plain harassment. It might be that there is some sort of enforceable provision that caries civil, but not criminal, penalties. It might be that the stories in the media are sparse on detail and there's some complicated legalisms going on.

Or, Trump could just be a doofus trying to exert authority he doesn't have, and he has already fired all the good lawyers who might be willing to say, "Sorry Mr. President. There's nothing you can do."
I don't think it is a civil suit considering the DOJ filed it. They are seeking an injunction. The problem of course is a conflict between actual classified info and prior restraint.
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Old 16th June 2020, 09:28 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Here is where I wish ISF hadn't turned into such an extreme echo chamber. I really would wonder what people who are favorably disposed toward Trump have to say about this.
Are you familiar with the subreddit r/AskTrumpSupporters? It is a heavily moderated discussion group where non-supporters can ask these sorts of questions of Trump supporters.

You might find some value in it, but I personally find it very boring to read. Not because of the perspectives of the Trump supporters per se, but because of the quality of their comments.
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Old 16th June 2020, 09:32 PM   #16
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Colbert showed his copy of the book he got in advance for his interview with Bolton next week.
It might be a tad late for the WH to try and block it.
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Old 16th June 2020, 09:40 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Colbert showed his copy of the book he got in advance for his interview with Bolton next week.
It might be a tad late for the WH to try and block it.
ARCs are almost always distributed with an embargo until publication release date. So book critics and reporters for the book tour all probably already have it if Colbert has it.

Now it could be that Colbert only has a blank book and dust jacket but I doubt it since the book has shipped to distributors.
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Old 16th June 2020, 09:44 PM   #18
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I've already pre-ordered it on Audible. Audible, an Amazon company seems perfectly willing to sell it to me.

I did some soul searching as I was conflicted about giving that son of a bitch my money. In the end though I hate the other son of a bitch more. Bolton is trying to destroy Trump and that's always a laudable goal even if he's a DB in all other respects.
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Old 16th June 2020, 10:22 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I've already pre-ordered it on Audible. Audible, an Amazon company seems perfectly willing to sell it to me.

I did some soul searching as I was conflicted about giving that son of a bitch my money. In the end though I hate the other son of a bitch more. Bolton is trying to destroy Trump and that's always a laudable goal even if he's a DB in all other respects.
To be honest I don't think Bolton really cares if trump is destroyed or not. I think he just wants to make money.

If he really wanted to "destroy" trump he would have spoken sooner (like during impeachment). He had the opportunity (like during the house inquiries) but chose not to.


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Old 16th June 2020, 10:26 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Beeyon View Post
Are you familiar with the subreddit r/AskTrumpSupporters? It is a heavily moderated discussion group where non-supporters can ask these sorts of questions of Trump supporters.

You might find some value in it, but I personally find it very boring to read. Not because of the perspectives of the Trump supporters per se, but because of the quality of their comments.
Thanks. I should check it out,
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Old 16th June 2020, 10:31 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
To be honest I don't think Bolton really cares if trump is destroyed or not. I think he just wants to make money.

If he really wanted to "destroy" trump he would have spoken sooner (like during impeachment). He had the opportunity (like during the house inquiries) but chose not to.


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Old 16th June 2020, 10:32 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I've already pre-ordered it on Audible. Audible, an Amazon company seems perfectly willing to sell it to me.

I did some soul searching as I was conflicted about giving that son of a bitch my money. In the end though I hate the other son of a bitch more. Bolton is trying to destroy Trump and that's always a laudable goal even if he's a DB in all other respects.
It is kind of amusing to see the shifting discussions on Bolton. He was the darling of the right wing because he was an uber-hawk. When he started working for Trump, he was hailed as the needed savior that would really make Anerica great again. Then, he got fired, and they were depressed. Then there were hints that he might turn on Trump, and during the impeachment trial, Democrats were clamoring to hear him. Now, he's the good guy for the left, but the right has probably disowned him.

Back when I drove a car, in March, I would listen to right wing talk radio. There really is a difference between hosts. I am sure that Hannity, Limbaugh, and the severely crazy ones whose names I have trouble remembering are turning on him and pretending they never thought much of him, but I really wonder what Hugh Hewitt is saying about him.
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Old 16th June 2020, 10:36 PM   #23
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I don't know anyone one the "not right" who thinks Bolton is a good guy.
But he is another example of how out of touch with traditional Republican policies Trump is.
Democrats hope to split the GOP into a Trump wing and a Republican wing, and hope that the latter won't bother to vote in November.
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Old 16th June 2020, 10:59 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Here is where I wish ISF hadn't turned into such an extreme echo chamber. I really would wonder what people who are favorably disposed toward Trump have to say about this. Anyway, it could be fun, so I thought it deserved its own thread to follow new details as they develop.
You can head to Quora for that. There are actual Trump supporters there whose clarity and candor will at the very least answer the question why a skeptics forum turned into an anti-trumpian echo chamber.

https://www.quora.com/unanswered/Wha...0sues%20bolton

Registration is required, but it's free to use.

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Old 16th June 2020, 11:09 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Here is a news story about it.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/16/polit...uit/index.html

Basically, Trump says that Bolton's book hasn't been approved by the classification police. The book is reported to be a scathing indictment of the president. The lawsuit is a rather transparent ploy to delay release of the book until after the election.

I didn't think he would do it. It's just so transparent what he's up to, and it's such an extreme violation of freedom of the press.
No, it isn't. Bolton doesn't have the freedom of speech that you and I have. He voluntarily surrendered it in order to take the position in government that he did and gain access to the classified information that he worked with. He cannot freely write about that classified material. This is a long established legal principle. It isn't an outrage. Rather, Bolton was an idiot to think he could just ignore the review requirements that everyone else in his position has to abide by.

Quote:
By suing, I think all he will accomplish is drawing a bit more attention to it. All the damage that could be done by it will be done anyway, and the juicy parts will all leak despite Trump's efforts.
Perhaps, but Bolton doesn't have a legal leg to stand on here.
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Old 16th June 2020, 11:19 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No, it isn't. Bolton doesn't have the freedom of speech that you and I have. He voluntarily surrendered it in order to take the position in government that he did and gain access to the classified information that he worked with. He cannot freely write about that classified material. This is a long established legal principle. It isn't an outrage. Rather, Bolton was an idiot to think he could just ignore the review requirements that everyone else in his position has to abide by.



Perhaps, but Bolton doesn't have a legal leg to stand on here.
I suppose that depends on what's in the book.

My belief at this point is that there is actually no classified information in the book, and that Bolton has in fact already gone through the review process. After it is released, I suppose we'll get some more in depth analysis from people who are better informed.

It is absolutely true that Bolton has no right to publish classified data. It is also absolutely true that the president has no right to declare something classified merely to prevent its publication. Stay tuned. One way or another, every line of that book is going to be made public. Let's hope that there's no information in it whose revelation will damage American security. My hunch is that there isn't anything like that. I think there might be something that further damages the reputation of the president, but that's a completely different thing.

It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that there are no real bombshells at all in the book. The hullabaloo will be all about "John Bolton says nasty things about Donald Trump", not actually about a new revelation. We'll find out soon enough.

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Old 17th June 2020, 12:34 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
It is kind of amusing to see the shifting discussions on Bolton. He was the darling of the right wing because he was an uber-hawk. When he started working for Trump, he was hailed as the needed savior that would really make Anerica great again. Then, he got fired, and they were depressed. Then there were hints that he might turn on Trump, and during the impeachment trial, Democrats were clamoring to hear him. Now, he's the good guy for the left, but the right has probably disowned him.



Back when I drove a car, in March, I would listen to right wing talk radio. There really is a difference between hosts. I am sure that Hannity, Limbaugh, and the severely crazy ones whose names I have trouble remembering are turning on him and pretending they never thought much of him, but I really wonder what Hugh Hewitt is saying about him.
I don't think he's a good guy. I think he tried to start a shooting war with Iran but Trump called it off. If he stabs Trump in the back, all well and good.
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Old 17th June 2020, 01:50 AM   #28
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I never thought Bolton was a 'good guy'; he's a war mongering ass. I was just hoping he had the guts to testify against Trump during the impeachment hearings. No such luck.
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Old 17th June 2020, 03:39 AM   #29
Upchurch
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Now, he's the good guy for the left...
I’m baffled how you make this statement in context of the post you quoted.
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Old 17th June 2020, 03:49 AM   #30
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Bolton and his publisher must be loving all the free publicity.

Last edited by zooterkin; 17th June 2020 at 01:43 PM. Reason: Rule 6
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Old 17th June 2020, 04:17 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I’m baffled how you make this statement in context of the post you quoted.
Doublethink.

Conservative media went all-in on tribalism years ago. Anyone not for them is against them, anyone they hate the other side must secretly love and vice versa. Bolton's on the outs with bunker boy and is being vilified by the right, therefore he's now the darling of the left, so look how hypocritical these liberals are to embrace a man they once hated just because his testimony might damage Trump!
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Old 17th June 2020, 04:31 AM   #32
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I'm not a lawyer, but that news story says "the Trump administration asked a federal judge on Tuesday to order former national security adviser John Bolton to stop the publication of his upcoming book". If it's already been printed, bound, and distributed to warehouses it seems to me that Bolton doesn't have control over the book any more. Those books belong to the publisher before they're sold, and to the retailers who already purchased copies to resell. I don't think an author retains legal control over the books at that point, do they? They only write the thing, they don't sell the copies out of their own car trunk from town to town.

A lawsuit against the publisher might stop sales, but the news stories I've read just talk about Bolton, not the publisher. He must have a contract, and has delivered his side of it. I think it's out of his hands, unless publishing contracts contain an "author recall" clause or something.
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Old 17th June 2020, 04:41 AM   #33
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https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/10/u...lton-book.html

There's a little more to this than just a security review of the book. Bolton has been working with the former NSC to redact classified material from the book. They've just been yanking his chain.
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Old 17th June 2020, 06:08 AM   #34
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I read that Bolton eventually received a reply from the NSC that they had no more edits to make to his manuscript. He didn't receive the official release but it seems he and his lawyers have enough communication to show they made a good faith effort to clear the book of classified information. I doubt they are in serous trouble when the book is published.
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Old 17th June 2020, 06:14 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
I don't think he's a good guy. I think he tried to start a shooting war with Iran but Trump called it off. If he stabs Trump in the back, all well and good.
I don't mean overall good guy, just temporary. It's sort of "the enemy of my enemy" relationship.
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Old 17th June 2020, 06:24 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Monza View Post
I read that Bolton eventually received a reply from the NSC that they had no more edits to make to his manuscript. He didn't receive the official release but it seems he and his lawyers have enough communication to show they made a good faith effort to clear the book of classified information. I doubt they are in serous trouble when the book is published.
This is what I was thinking.

The publication date was pushed back a few times so the NSC and other organizations could vet the information, right?
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Old 17th June 2020, 06:29 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
If the Revolutionary War was about anything, it was about replacing unelected kings with private individuals open to tremendous armchair-quarterbacking.
Go Patriots!
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Old 17th June 2020, 06:40 AM   #38
dmaker
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Doublethink.

Conservative media went all-in on tribalism years ago. Anyone not for them is against them, anyone they hate the other side must secretly love and vice versa. Bolton's on the outs with bunker boy and is being vilified by the right, therefore he's now the darling of the left, so look how hypocritical these liberals are to embrace a man they once hated just because his testimony might damage Trump!
I don't embrace the man, I embrace whatever damage he can do to Trump.
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Old 17th June 2020, 06:54 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
There are no trump supporters in this forum -- or pretty much any forum -- who are going to make a thoughtful, honest reply. After four years of this nonsense I think that's pretty clear. I think most ISF members already know pretty much how the trump supporters are going to reply.

I'm more interested in this book, "Too Much and Never Enough: How My Family Created the World’s Most Dangerous Man," by one of trump's nieces, Mary L. Trump. Mary Trump holds a PhD from Adelphi University and taught graduate courses in trauma, psychopathology, and developmental psychology.
I can't imagine what kind of legal argument he could use for suppressing that book. The most he could do would be to sue for libel, but, as a public figure, he would have to prove malice. He may be hoping that the threat of a lawsuit can keep the publisher from publishing it, but I doubt that will work.
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Old 17th June 2020, 06:56 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
All it takes is somebody sliding a book to a reporter.
I would be very surprised if review copies weren't already out.
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