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Old 30th July 2020, 12:04 PM   #41
Silly Green Monkey
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
I'm wondering if the hysterical crowd who have such thinking realize how ridiculous they sound to normal people?
True, it's much more like Communist China in the silencing of dissent by the peoples ruled.

Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
<snip>
Rioters and looters using brownshirt tactics are brownshirts. <snip>


Edited by Loss Leader:  Quote removed and post edited to conform.
Brownshirts had the authority of the government behind them. Are you accusing the federal government of sending agents provocateur to riot and loot in order to justify attacking protestors?
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Old 30th July 2020, 12:09 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
True, it's much more like Communist China in the silencing of dissent by the peoples ruled.



Brownshirts had the authority of the government behind them. Are you accusing the federal government of sending agents provocateur to riot and loot in order to justify attacking protestors?
If only there were some group of street demonstrators from the time that might make an apt analogy. If only there were some group of agitators in the streets of Weimar Germany that stood in opposition to fascists. Some leftist group that, while often engaged in violent struggle against right wing extremists, did not enjoy the same protections and blessing of a center-right government.

But nope, there were no such people. Just gotta call them all fascists.
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Old 30th July 2020, 12:10 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
This isn't merely "what fascism looks like", this is fascism openly making a bid for public acceptance, pure and simple. It has been the unbroken line of this administration from the beginning that the coronavirus pandemic was not actually a big deal and that reopening the country for normalized socializing and commerce was completely safe and should be a priority; and yet now here is the president rather arbitrarily and capriciously citing "safety" as a pretext for "delaying" the upcoming presidential election which he stands at least a moderate chance of losing.

Fortunately for all of us, the Constitution actually contains explicit instructions for what is to happen should a presidential election be "delayed" for any reason. Those instructions include the current president and his vice being removed from their posts on January 20th the next, as normally scheduled.
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Old 30th July 2020, 12:14 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
This isn't merely "what fascism looks like", this is fascism openly making a bid for public acceptance, pure and simple. It has been the unbroken line of this administration from the beginning that the coronavirus pandemic was not actually a big deal and that reopening the country for normalized socializing and commerce was completely safe and should be a priority; and yet now here is the president rather arbitrarily and capriciously citing "safety" as a pretext for "delaying" the upcoming presidential election which he stands at least a moderate chance of losing.

Fortunately for all of us, the Constitution actually contains explicit instructions for what is to happen should a presidential election be "delayed" for any reason. Those instructions include the current president and his vice being removed from their posts on January 20th the next, as normally scheduled.
Constitution says things, but it's just paper if the people with guns (the military and police apparatus) decide it doesn't matter.

The question isn't whether it's allowed or legal, it's whether Trump can convince enough of the military and other armed agencies to support his power grab.
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Old 30th July 2020, 12:16 PM   #45
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Trumpf's at least as much Mussolini as he is (or yearns to be) Hitler. Like Musso, he's not really in charge of things, and he's surrounded by henchpigs diving deep into the public and corporate troughs. His style is best described as brutality tempered by incompetence -- and constantly distracted by greed.

Know what? He's more like an African strongman than anything European. How I'd love to tell him so!

But I'm not allowed.
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Old 30th July 2020, 12:47 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Then what separates this from China which seems to do these things more extensively than the US but are not fascist?
Why are you asking me? People have been saying China is no longer a communist country for decades now, and if you look up 3 posts I wrote:

Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
To be fair, though, that’s a go to of dictatorships in general not one exclusive to fascism. Eg China is trying the very same thing to pro-democracy protestors in Hong Kong. Then again, with the Chinese governments current approach to business probably makes them more fascist than communist, so maybe that isn’t a great example.
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Old 30th July 2020, 12:55 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post

Know what? He's more like an African strongman than anything European.
You are probably correct. He isn’t trying to be a fascist even if it’s a somewhat reasonable (but not perfect) description for the actual polices. His real goal is personal wealth and power and he really doesn’t care much about how he achieves it, this really is like the African strong man who will embrace any “ism” in order to gain power.

Originally Posted by sackett View Post

How I'd love to tell him so!
He'd probabaly take being called a "Stongman" as a compliment. You'd need to skip the African part though, I doubt he'd take kindly to being compared to an African.
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Old 30th July 2020, 01:06 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
If only there were some group of street demonstrators from the time that might make an apt analogy. If only there were some group of agitators in the streets of Weimar Germany that stood in opposition to fascists. Some leftist group that, while often engaged in violent struggle against right wing extremists, did not enjoy the same protections and blessing of a center-right government.

But nope, there were no such people. Just gotta call them all fascists.
You don't know much about the history of Weimar Germany, do you?
There was pleny of street action, the problem was the left was so badly devided that the KPD..the Stalinist German Communist Party...called the more centrist SPD "Social Fascists'
and some openly thought that a Hitler victory wouljd be better in the long run for the Revolution.
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Old 30th July 2020, 01:12 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You don't know much about the history of Weimar Germany, do you?
There was pleny of street action, the problem was the left was so badly devided that the KPD..the Stalinist German Communist Party...called the more centrist SPD "Social Fascists'
and some openly thought that a Hitler victory wouljd be better in the long run for the Revolution.
Yes, not a lot to look up to there. Lefties have a well deserved reputation for self-sabotage, tedious splitting, and in-fighting. My point is that it's absurd to call BLM protesters and even rioters fascists or brownshirts.

Even if they are violent thugs, they aren't fash. There's no shortage of names to call violent lefties, calling them fascists is just lazy or intellectually dishonest.
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Old 30th July 2020, 01:15 PM   #50
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Oh lomiller. I would NEVER skip the African part. Not when talking to Benito the Lesser.

Now: Can somebody with €0.25 worth of Photoshop savvy please run up a nice pitcher of IQ45 on an ivory throne, dolled up in a leopard skin and dasiki and bow tie and pibox hat, holding a ceremonial axe (made in China is fine) and miscellaneous* other truck, glowering at us over a slogan like "One Man, One Vote, One Time." Pleeeeease do it!

* A couple of gold-plated AKs would be nice.
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Old 30th July 2020, 01:17 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yes, not a lot to look up to there. Lefties have a well deserved reputation for self-sabotage, tedious splitting, and in-fighting. My point is that it's absurd to call BLM protesters and even rioters fascists or brownshirts.

Even if they are violent thugs, they aren't fash. There's no shortage of names to call violent lefties, calling them fascists is just lazy or intellectually dishonest.
It's a nifty tactic though, as it devalues the word, making calling fascists fascist seem hyperbolic.
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Old 30th July 2020, 01:50 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
I'm wondering if the hysterical crowd who have such thinking realize how ridiculous they sound to normal people?
It's not paranoia when they really ARE out to get you.
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Old 30th July 2020, 01:51 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I think it shows a parochial worldview constrained by a lack of knowledge on the range of authoritarian regimes.

Really? In all of human history and all regimes, this is the one it is most comparable to?
When the jackboot fits...
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Old 30th July 2020, 01:54 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
He's following Hitler's playbook almost precisely. If his regime goosesteps like a fascist, uses the slogans and tactics of a fascist and espouses the beliefs of a fascist...do the math...
(45-1)*2=88. OMG!
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Old 30th July 2020, 01:54 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Never attribute to fascism that which is adequately explained by incompetence.
Never dismiss as incompetence where there is a great deal of evidence of intent. NO ONE is this stupid. Even if he was, his handlers aren't.
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Old 30th July 2020, 01:54 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You're allowed to call it anything you want.

Ironically, this means it's probably not fascism.
OMG, that is too funny!


I mean I somewhat disagree with you, and there are definitely a lot of warning signs of movement towards fascism, but you definitely get points for being witty.
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Old 30th July 2020, 02:00 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sure, where "almost precisely" means "not even a little bit".
https://www.thenation.com/article/po...ump-wisconsin/

https://www.cnn.com/2017/01/16/opini...iat/index.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlo...0fb_story.html

https://medium.com/politics-fast-and...s-5fef5b03883c

As always, refer back to the 14 attributes of fascism:

https://www.favreau.info/misc/14-points-fascism.php
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Old 30th July 2020, 02:01 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Semantics to a large extent. The definition is fuzzy.

Attributes of facism with applicability to current situation:

Hyper nationalistic check
Far right check
Authoritarian check
One party state check
Positive view of violence check
Opposed to free press check
Charismatic, authoritarian leader with devout following check
Racist check
Also misogynist.
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Old 30th July 2020, 02:02 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Just starting with your first one,

How do you know the difference between nationalistic normal to right wing authoritarianism and hyper nationalistic?
Lets see, he's started several trade wars, withdrawn us from multiple international treaties and organizations, and routinely badmouths other nations' people and leadership.
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Old 30th July 2020, 02:09 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
You want to start referring to Trump as Hitler now??

What took you so long?
I've been saying it for a long time. So have a lot of others. Everybody else kept saying we were wrong.
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Old 30th July 2020, 02:12 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Then what separates this from China which seems to do these things more extensively than the US but are not fascist?
China is fascism with a veneer of Communism painted over it.
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Old 30th July 2020, 02:13 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Well, you kind of did, but you labeled them 'rioters' and 'looters', which is also out of the fascist play-book.

Take - for example - the tear-gassing of the moms in Portland. Which ones of the moms were rioting or looting?

Or - as another example - the clearing of Lafayette park prior to Trump's photo op. Who were the rioters?
Or the attacks on clearly marked medical and media personnel.
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Old 30th July 2020, 02:14 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
I've been saying it for a long time. So have a lot of others. Everybody else kept saying we were wrong.
Judging by this thread, they still are.
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Old 30th July 2020, 02:14 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
No, they're still police. Secret State Police, if you will.
Aka: Gestapo. Stasi, etc...
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Old 30th July 2020, 02:18 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Constitution says things, but it's just paper if the people with guns (the military and police apparatus) decide it doesn't matter.

The question isn't whether it's allowed or legal, it's whether Trump can convince enough of the military and other armed agencies to support his power grab.
The GOP has been wiping its ass with the Constitution since 2010.
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Old 30th July 2020, 02:36 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Constitution says things, but it's just paper if the people with guns (the military and police apparatus) decide it doesn't matter.

The question isn't whether it's allowed or legal, it's whether Trump can convince enough of the military and other armed agencies to support his power grab.
The police don't matter. There's no police force that has the capability of interfering with the transfer of power.

The military is theoretically more of a threat; but I don't think Trump commands the absolute loyalty of enough of the US military leadership that they would be willing to step outside of Constitutional bounds in support of him. And while Trump certainly enjoys broad support among the lowest ranks, the highly decentralized structure of the US military makes it less vulnerable to a bottom-up coup or anything of that nature.
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Old 30th July 2020, 03:31 PM   #67
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How is someone blinding officers with lasers, shooting commercial fireworks at the officers, lobbing explosives and Molotov cocktails and other various missiles and trying to burn down a federal courthouse be considered protesters?
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Old 30th July 2020, 04:05 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Semantics to a large extent. The definition is fuzzy.

Attributes of facism with applicability to current situation:

Hyper nationalistic check
Far right check
Authoritarian check
One party state check
Positive view of violence check
Opposed to free press check
Charismatic, authoritarian leader with devout following check
Racist check
One party state?
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Old 30th July 2020, 04:20 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
One party state?
By the time the fascists in charge have eliminated competing parties, you're WAY past arguing about "But are they really fascists?" because you're in the train on your way to the concentration camp.

We can point out the problem before the fascists are succesful past the point of having succeeded in dissolving democracy.
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Old 30th July 2020, 04:21 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
One party state?
I'm guessing that refers to how gerrymandering ensures Republican candidates win even with less than half of votes cast for them, how anything presented to Congress that Republicans don't like can be stopped even if Republicans are in the minority, the ever-constant rhetoric that Republicans are for the United States and God and anyone not Republican is anti-United States and anti-God. Every single Democratic candidate for president in my lifetime has been characterized as the AntiChrist and none of the Republican ones ever have. That kind of one-party state, where only one party is the True Americans and everyone else is illegal immigrants, commies, and libs.
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Old 30th July 2020, 04:27 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
The GOP has been wiping its ass with the Constitution since 2010.
After taking a big **** on the "intent of the Founding Fathers" with every post-9/11 security initiative.
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Old 30th July 2020, 04:57 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
China is fascism with a veneer of Communism painted over it.
Use of the word fascism is a dunning Kruger test.
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Old 30th July 2020, 05:10 PM   #73
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BTW, I have not noticed any modesty around here or elsewhere about using the f word with regard to any Republican president, and especially not from the OP.
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Old 30th July 2020, 05:32 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
One party state?
When Trump advocates that his political opponents go to jail, and when he describes them as traitors and enemies of the people, and when he goes to extraordinary lengths to deny voting rights to the opposition ... Yes, he's pushing for a one party state.
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Old 30th July 2020, 05:33 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, we are not.

Yes, dann, you are allowed to say crazy things. As that post illustrated, both sides do it and no one gets in trouble.
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Old 30th July 2020, 05:49 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
China is fascism with a veneer of Communism painted over it.
Veneer? Hell, it's more of a thin layer of plastic wrap. Full on authoritarian capitalism. There's no more communism in China EXCEPT for the authoritarian part.

Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
BTW, I have not noticed any modesty around here or elsewhere about using the f word with regard to any Republican president, and especially not from the OP.
Nor from Trump himself. "I did try to **** her".
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Old 30th July 2020, 05:51 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Use of the word fascism is a dunning Kruger test.
Libertarianism is the opposite of authoritarianism, except when it's not.
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Old 30th July 2020, 06:04 PM   #78
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The #1 trending story on Fox News right now is the co-founder of the Federalist Society calling the President's tweet "Facist"

But it's not just like he slightly disproves, he thinks it is grounds for impeachment.

Originally Posted by Steven Calabresi
"I am frankly appalled by the president’s recent tweet seeking to postpone the November election," he wrote. "Until recently, I had taken as political hyperbole the Democrats’ assertion that President Trump is a fascist.

"But this latest tweet is fascistic and is itself grounds for the president’s immediate impeachment again ... and his removal from office by the Senate.
This is based on his New York Times Op-Ed here:

Trump Might Try to Postpone the Election. That’s Unconstitutional.
He should be removed unless he relents.
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Old 30th July 2020, 06:08 PM   #79
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If you are allowed to call it fascism, then it probably isn't fascism.




I'll just stick with morons.
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Old 30th July 2020, 06:17 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
If you are allowed to call it fascism, then it probably isn't fascism.


I'll just stick with morons.
I mean, we're talking about a scale. Trump can make Fascist actions, and it would be correct.


However, if he exposes everyone to his Full Frontal Fascism, than you wouldn't be able to publicly call him Fascist without being jailed or worse. Yeesh.

So there is some percentage between flashes of Fascism and Full Frontal Fascism where the term is still valid I guess.
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