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Old 2nd August 2020, 11:36 AM   #121
varwoche
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
I can do better. The dems who thought Hillary was a shoe in stayed home, and Trump won. Part of the responsibility of him being President is establishment Democrat complacency. Own it.
It's a shame there's no Olympics! I'm confident your goalpost would medal in the marathon.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 11:38 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
It's a shame there's no Olympics! I'm confident your goalpost would medal in the marathon.
The fact you don't address the point made is proof of the guilt. Failure to own it is a weakness.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 11:58 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
The fact you don't address the point made is proof of the guilt. Failure to own it is a weakness.
Does it not occur to you that my "failure" is that I'm simply sticking to the thread topic?

When you insist on flogging generic, off-topic opinions, I'm left to assume that you're unable to support the inane claim that prompted our exchange.

Go ahead and prove me wrong. Reply to my challenge. One lonely (specific) cite please.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 12:03 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Does it not occur to you that my "failure" is that I'm simply sticking to the thread topic?

When you insist on flogging generic, off-topic opinions, I'm left to assume that you're unable to support the inane claim that prompted our exchange.

Go ahead and prove me wrong. Reply to my challenge. One lonely (specific) cite please.
No you're not, you are making pointless "Olympic" banter. So no we will just give you "meh".
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Old 2nd August 2020, 03:53 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
More off-topic goalpost motion.

Can you name one mainstream Dem who does the sort of thing that authoritarians like Trump do...?


routinely call for political opponents to be jailed

Please cite one lonely, specific example. No members of the Berkeley City Council please. Big league only.
Obama, I thought, was an intelligent person. The single biggest drawback of him for me was his incessant pursuit of jailing Whistle Blowers. By getting rid of Whistle Blowers and showing potential Whistle Blowers what will happen to you if you come forward created a huge deterrent in reporting government crimes.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 04:07 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
I can do better. The dems who thought Hillary was a shoe in stayed home, and Trump won. Part of the responsibility of him being President is establishment Democrat complacency. Own it.
Your answer doesn't fit the question you were asked. Unless you can explain to me how losing an election is authoritarianism.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 04:24 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Obama, I thought, was an intelligent person. The single biggest drawback of him for me was his incessant pursuit of jailing Whistle Blowers. By getting rid of Whistle Blowers and showing potential Whistle Blowers what will happen to you if you come forward created a huge deterrent in reporting government crimes.
I don't remember Obama ever firing a whistleblower, and definitely not their brother too...
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Old 2nd August 2020, 04:33 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Obama, I thought, was an intelligent person. The single biggest drawback of him for me was his incessant pursuit of jailing Whistle Blowers. By getting rid of Whistle Blowers and showing potential Whistle Blowers what will happen to you if you come forward created a huge deterrent in reporting government crimes.
I too condemn the Obama administration's treatment of whistleblowers, but at least in those cases that treatment was enforcement of clear and existing laws around protected information that the participants knew they were breaking.

That's problematic.

But it's not even near the same ballpark as going after people who legally shared information requested by congress.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 04:39 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
No you're not, you are making pointless "Olympic" banter. So no we will just give you "meh".
None of you have even earned so much as "meh".
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Old 2nd August 2020, 06:22 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Obama, I thought, was an intelligent person. The single biggest drawback of him for me was his incessant pursuit of jailing Whistle Blowers. By getting rid of Whistle Blowers and showing potential Whistle Blowers what will happen to you if you come forward created a huge deterrent in reporting government crimes.
Reasonable, though reasonable people might disagree. It's a red herring in this conversation.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 06:01 AM   #131
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Again, not to beat this drum, Trump's a troll and much/most of his base is completely motivated by trolling and all of his base is at least partially motivated by it. Everything he does is based on that

He's a fascist, but it's almost accidental. Trump's a fascist for the same reason he's a racist, a sexist, anti-immigration and the same reason for every other personality trait, because it works up the Dems which makes his base love him more.

There is literally no evil Trump will not stoop if he thinks it will tweak the libs, because his base only cares about that and Trump only cares about being adored by masses.

Now is he in his "heart of heart" a fascist? *Shrugs* DamnedifIknow. There's no person with Trump, only a persona.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 06:05 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again, not to beat this drum, Trump's a troll and much/most of his base is completely motivated by trolling and all of his base is at least partially motivated by it. Everything he does is based on that

He's a fascist, but it's almost accidental. Trump's a fascist for the same reason he's a racist, a sexist, anti-immigration and the same reason for every other personality trait, because it works up the Dems which makes his base love him more.

There is literally no evil Trump will not stoop if he thinks it will tweak the libs, because his base only cares about that and Trump only cares about being adored by masses.

Now is he in his "heart of heart" a fascist? *Shrugs* DamnedifIknow. There's no person with Trump, only a persona.
Again, how do you know it is specifically fascism and not other variations of right wing authoritarianism?
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Old 3rd August 2020, 06:08 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again, not to beat this drum, Trump's a troll and much/most of his base is completely motivated by trolling and all of his base is at least partially motivated by it. Everything he does is based on that

He's a fascist, but it's almost accidental. Trump's a fascist for the same reason he's a racist, a sexist, anti-immigration and the same reason for every other personality trait, because it works up the Dems which makes his base love him more.

There is literally no evil Trump will not stoop if he thinks it will tweak the libs, because his base only cares about that and Trump only cares about being adored by masses.

Now is he in his "heart of heart" a fascist? *Shrugs* DamnedifIknow. There's no person with Trump, only a persona.
Agreed.

More so than any other characteristic, Trump's an opportunist. It seems clear that he has strong chauvinistic instincts that could fairly be called fascistic. But I don't think he has a strong ideological commitment to such an ideology, or any other ideology. He doesn't strike me as someone intellectually curious enough to be an advocate of a particular ideology like other notable fascist leaders, but rather just relies on his base instincts, which are deeply racist, sexist, etc, to careen from opportunity to opportunity.

The mainstream conservative movement has revealed itself to be very open to being appropriated by a hard-right fascist movement, which is extremely alarming. The next standard-bearer of the extreme right is almost certainly going to be more personally disciplined and focused than Trump, and much more of a threat.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 06:24 AM   #134
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All true, and just so I'm 100% clear "accidental fascism" is no better than intentional fascism, hell I'd almost buy some valid arguments that it would be worse.

Now, again in full 100% honesty, getting hyperfocused on "We have to define exactly what kind of bad Trump is doing" is a bad a place to get stuck for too long for multiple reasons, not the least of which is how much his follower focus on "Trump's not evil because you can't define his exact method of evil" nonsense.

He's bad for the country. That's the core argument and that's where it needs to sta.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 06:28 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
As opposed to the Left which wants stalinist style Communist, how is that any better?
Was that an honest question or some sort of point about generalisation and hyperbole?
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Old 3rd August 2020, 06:55 AM   #136
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Thinking through how Trump might try to steal the election should it not go his own way, I think the only avenue would be a legal challenge upheld by a conservative SCOTUS.

Trump hasn't packed military leadership with toadies the way he has other parts of the administration. I don't see many Bill Barr types in the military that are willing to prostitute themselves in service to the dear leader. I don't see the military being willing to be used in a coup attempt.

DHS is another story, and they've already demonstrated a willingness to be Trump's personal Gestapo under the leadership of Barr, but even then I don't think the force is large enough for a coup.

A violent coup isn't necessary. We've already seen in Bush v. Gore a willingness of conservative judges to put their thumbs on the electoral scales. I would assume the SCOTUS would shy away from overturning an overwhelming loss, but they might entertain a pretextual claim to overturn a close election.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 07:11 AM   #137
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Particularly at this surreal moment in history, sitting on a phony baloney "both sides are equally authoritarian" high horse is so shallow, so vacuous, that it would be laughable if the situation wasn't so demented.

It serves to normalize this imbecilic, fascistic thug.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 07:13 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
As opposed to the Left which wants stalinist style Communist, how is that any better?
Outrageous. Everyone knows Pelosi is a Maoist.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 07:15 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
No both sides suck in their own special way.
When I see someone shrieking "but both sides are baad!!!111", I see someone from side that bears most, if not all, of blame - and desiring to shift some of it away. Pathetic.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 07:52 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
When I see someone shrieking "but both sides are baad!!!111", I see someone from side that bears most, if not all, of blame - and desiring to shift some of it away. Pathetic.
As opposed to those who have partisan blinders, so they can't see beyond that limitation. That is pathetic.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 08:26 AM   #141
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Screaming "But both sides are bad!" accomplishes exactly what it's supposed to do, troll the discussion by making it impossible to actually have it.

- It makes the false and dangerous equation between an imperfect party and an outright evil one.

- It makes it so nobody wants to bring up genuine, fair and honest criticism for the better side of the discussion because they know some idiot will run with it to make some "both sides are equally bad!" narrative.

- This causes the side defending the better but not perfect side to come across as acting as if their side is perfect, not because they deny their side has flaws but because the trolls make actually discussing them so toxic.

- All these mentalities feed the other ones.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 09:02 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Screaming "But both sides are bad!" accomplishes exactly what it's supposed to do, troll the discussion by making it impossible to actually have it.

- It makes the false and dangerous equation between an imperfect party and an outright evil one.

- It makes it so nobody wants to bring up genuine, fair and honest criticism for the better side of the discussion because they know some idiot will run with it to make some "both sides are equally bad!" narrative.

- This causes the side defending the better but not perfect side to come across as acting as if their side is perfect, not because they deny their side has flaws but because the trolls make actually discussing them so toxic.

- All these mentalities feed the other ones.
Or it isn't beholdened to the partisan lense and sees the bigger picture.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 09:05 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Screaming "But both sides are bad!" accomplishes exactly what it's supposed to do, troll the discussion by making it impossible to actually have it.

- It makes the false and dangerous equation between an imperfect party and an outright evil one.

- It makes it so nobody wants to bring up genuine, fair and honest criticism for the better side of the discussion because they know some idiot will run with it to make some "both sides are equally bad!" narrative.

- This causes the side defending the better but not perfect side to come across as acting as if their side is perfect, not because they deny their side has flaws but because the trolls make actually discussing them so toxic.

- All these mentalities feed the other ones.
Democrats are not an imperfect party. They purposely helped orchestrate racial terrorism to promote white supremacy. By choosing to be Democrats, people are purposely choosing to be part of that organization with that history. That is way worse than "imperfect."
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Old 3rd August 2020, 09:16 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
No they are Establishment Cogs putting forth Dementia Joe as a Candidate, Bernie was the Socialist. Trump is a Populist but everyone here screams Fascist, he's a Populist.
Populism was an important element in Germany and Italy.

By all means, look at the defining attributes of fascism and point out where it differs from Trumpism. Start with my brief list that you keep evading please.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 09:29 AM   #145
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And the pro-Trump trolls have successfully gotten us debating what kind of evil Trump is.

It doesn't matter if he's a Fascist or a Sparkling Populaist, he's bad for the country.

Besides so many of our political definitions where solidified back in the 1800s and barely apply in any context now.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 09:33 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And the pro-Trump trolls have successfully gotten us debating what kind of evil Trump is.

It doesn't matter if he's a Fascist or a Sparkling Populaist, he's bad for the country.

Besides so many of our political definitions where solidified back in the 1800s and barely apply in any context now.
It does matter though, everyone screams He's Hitler, he's not, he's a Populist. And not evading your pal's demands, he simply can't see he's wrong.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 09:43 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
It does matter though, everyone screams He's Hitler, he's not, he's a Populist. And not evading your pal's demands, he simply can't see he's wrong.
Nobody here called him Hitler. Pay better attention.
  • Trying to control the press isn't a defining characteristic of populism.
  • Encouraging violence against reporters isn't a defining characteristic of populism.
  • Calling for political opponents to be jailed isn't a defining characteristic of populism.
  • Threatening violence against peaceful protesters isn't a defining characteristic of populism.
  • Inflicting violence against peaceful protesters isn't a defining characteristic of populism.
These are things that authoritarian thugs do.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 09:58 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Are we allowed to call Trump's regime fascism now?
If you want to start calling the U.S. government Fascist then you ought to have done it when Bush Baby Junior was crawling around the polished, White House floor and pooping himself. NOTHING has come nearly as close as Fascist since he left office.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 10:12 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Nobody here called him Hitler. Pay better attention.
  • Trying to control the press isn't a defining characteristic of populism.
  • Encouraging violence against reporters isn't a defining characteristic of populism.
  • Calling for political opponents to be jailed isn't a defining characteristic of populism.
  • Threatening violence against peaceful protesters isn't a defining characteristic of populism.
  • Inflicting violence against peaceful protesters isn't a defining characteristic of populism.
These are things that authoritarian thugs do.
The Press hasnt been about news in years, its at best Infotainment.
Reporters "report" Infotainment
The Protestors just today were threatening Louisville KY Business Owners to Support their cause if they don't want their places wrecked, the Protestors are'nt innocent either.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/cuban-bus...-mafia-tactics

There are Thugs on both sides, you just seem to want to enable one side over the other.

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Old 3rd August 2020, 10:47 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
This is why all the fevered fantasies of Trump refusing to accept the results of the election are just that--fantasies. Believe it or not, even Trump's biggest fans would abandon him in a heartbeat.

Now a fantasy I could believe in is Trump deciding to step down for the good of the country and Pence promptly pardoning him.
In the exceedingly unlikely event that Trump should step down, I doubt that he would do it of his own accord. Browbeaten into it by Repugnican leaders desperate to salvage what pitiful shreds of of their party's reputation might yet remain? Possibly. But not on his own initiative.

And it is certain that concern for the welfare of the country would have no part in that decision, either by him or any of his party who might urge him to such a choice. Rank, unabashed self-interest would be the only motive.

We've already seen exactly how much concern for the welfare of the country Trump and the G.O.P have. Less than none. They actively work against it. Their only concern is to themselves and their major donors. The rest of the country is an unfortunate burden they only try to pretend to carry.

They do that badly.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 10:53 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And the pro-Trump trolls have successfully gotten us debating what kind of evil Trump is.

It doesn't matter if he's a Fascist or a Sparkling Populaist, he's bad for the country.

Besides so many of our political definitions where solidified back in the 1800s and barely apply in any context now.
The sole theme of the OP is that this is fascism. It wasn't a general post about the state of a country and fascist was just a term of art.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 11:01 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
This is why all the fevered fantasies of Trump refusing to accept the results of the election are just that--fantasies. Believe it or not, even Trump's biggest fans would abandon him in a heartbeat.
I do not and I find it extremely naive to believe that Trump's biggest fans would ever abandon him while still in office (or while he claims to still be in office, at least). As long as he claims his loss was rigged or fake news, I have little doubt his supporters will stick with him.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 11:26 AM   #153
dann
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One just has to consider how long his fans here stuck with him.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 3rd August 2020, 11:31 AM   #154
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I omitted an important factor:
  • Trying to control the press isn't a defining characteristic of populism.
  • Encouraging violence against reporters isn't a defining characteristic of populism.
  • Calling for political opponents to be jailed isn't a defining characteristic of populism.
  • Threatening violence against peaceful protesters isn't a defining characteristic of populism.
  • Inflicting violence against peaceful protesters isn't a defining characteristic of populism.
  • Attempting to thwart free and fair elections isn't a defining characteristic of populism.

Trump threatens lawsuit to block mail-in voting in Nevada

These are things that authoritarian thugs do.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 11:31 AM   #155
dann
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
It does matter though, everyone screams He's Hitler, he's not, he's a Populist. And not evading your pal's demands, he simply can't see he's wrong.

Are you suggesting that Hitler wasn't a populist?! Or that Hitler could see that he was wrong?
He is obviously not Hitler. Nobody confused the two. By now, his fascist tendencies should be obvious to everybody.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 3rd August 2020, 11:35 AM   #156
dann
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
No they are Establishment Cogs putting forth Dementia Joe as a Candidate, Bernie was the Socialist. Trump is a Populist but everyone here screams Fascist, he's a Populist.
You should read up on populism and fascism: The Language of Right-wing Populism: Adolf Hitler to Boris Johnson
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 3rd August 2020, 11:43 AM   #157
dann
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
As opposed to the Left which wants stalinist style Communist, how is that any better?

Communists aren't Stalinists. And Stalinists aren't communists however much they claim to be. We have much fewer Stalinists in our ranks than the two American parties. Brownnosing whoever's in charge seems to come natural to career politicians.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 3rd August 2020, 12:02 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
The Press hasnt been about news in years, its at best Infotainment.
Nope, I'm not going to gallop with you. This is yet another red herring. (Even though I'm somewhat in agreement here.)

For the nth time, here's what's under discussion: Are we allowed to call Trump's regime fascism now?

I say no, that's an overreach. But I have no qualms saying that Trump leads a fascistic party, he's a fascistic thug, and we're in a state of nascent fascism.

Trump's core ideology is plain to see: Glorification and enrichment of Trump. His fascism is incidental. In a way, that makes it morally worse.

(BobTheCoward is welcome to replace "fascism" with "authoritarianism" and I'll have no complaints.)
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Old 3rd August 2020, 12:39 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
This is why all the fevered fantasies of Trump refusing to accept the results of the election are just that--fantasies. Believe it or not, even Trump's biggest fans would abandon him in a heartbeat.
I do not and I find it extremely naive to believe that Trump's biggest fans would ever abandon him while still in office (or while he claims to still be in office, at least). As long as he claims his loss was rigged or fake news, I have little doubt his supporters will stick with him.

I think there may be an issue of imprecise terminology here.

I see Trump's "fans" as that core of fervent admirers who have found absolutely no reason to question his performance and behavior while in office. You're right. Nothing is going to sway them. They have too much invested and nothing to lose by continuing. They'll always have each other, and anything which might cast a shadow on their beliefs can only be evil conspiracies , or lies, or both. They are the heart of that 40% people always talk about.

But Brainster is right when it comes to the powerful within the Repugnican party structure. Not "fans", really, but more properly 'allies' of convenience. They'll ride his coattails as long as there is something in it for them, but drop him like a pissed off rattlesnake as soon as that pay-off vaporizes. Or even diminishes sufficiently.

Then they will quickly build a new history of themselves, where they valiantly fought against the depredations of Trump and his real cronies. All alone in the wilderness. All the while staying faithful to the fundamental precepts of a True Republican™
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Last edited by quadraginta; 3rd August 2020 at 01:35 PM.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 01:40 PM   #160
Upchurch
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
But Brainster is right when it comes to the powerful within the Repugnican party structure. They'll ride his coattails as long as there is something in it for them, but drop him like a pissed off rattlesnake as soon as that pay-off vaporizes. Then they will quickly build a new history of themselves, where they valiantly fought against the depredations of Trump and his real cronies. All alone in the wilderness. All the while staying faithful to the fundamental precepts of a True Republicanô
I put a conditional in my statement for a reason. I would say that no more than 2 years after Trump is out of office, most of even the fervent admirers will deny that they ever thought Trump was really a Republican or conservative. All the elected Republicans will have a Trump-sized blank spot in their memories.

But until Trump is actually out of office, there will be true believers that will revolt against the Deep State keeping Trump from his gawd-given right to be more President than anyone ever.
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