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Tags Coronavirus , Coronavirus conspiracies , donald trump , Trump controversies

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Old 9th September 2020, 04:03 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Itís not stupidity so much as arrogance. He thinks he can get away with it. He may even be right.
This, I think- Mr "I take no responsibility at all" has decided to take it, but re-labelled it "credit." And that will fly with his faithful.
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Old 9th September 2020, 07:58 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Trump - like all presidents before him - had to make a tough decision which would have resulted in people dying no matter what path he took. If he is guilty of murder then so is every president who sent troops into a war zone, or who didn't send them in when people would die without our protection.


The problem with this line of argument is that, with previous leaders, we had at least some reason to apply the "Principle of Charity", and assume they were trying to make the best decision they could in light of a complicated situation in which the right answer wasn't always obvious.

But in this case, we have Trump's own words telling us that he didn't bother to consider anything beyond his own needs. There's no charity to be given, there's no confusion as to if he was honestly trying to do his best. He wasn't, and he knew it.
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Old 9th September 2020, 08:07 PM   #83
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There's also the problem with comparing Trump's actions to a real President deciding if they should send troops into a war zone. In a war, the enemy gets a say. There's always a legitimate argument to be had concerning whether or not committing troops will make things better or worse. History is replete with examples on all sides of that sort of discussion.

But in this case? There's no enemy to worry about, there's no potential battle that might cause massive collateral damage, there are no generals pushing alternative strategies. Virtually every competent authority told Trump exactly what needed to be done, and essentially everything they suggested could have been implemented with little or no difficulty. Even the economic damage we've seen would have been far less severe had Trump acted back in early February. The results of taking action would have been so heavily weighted on the positive side that no one in their right mind would have disagreed with taking action.
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Old 9th September 2020, 08:46 PM   #84
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If other shameful actions have not brought Trump down, this one unfortunately won't. Bars, cinemas and Disneyland are open. These are today's "opium of the masses".

Given that this will blow over well before election day, I now think Trump will be re-elected. A Trump untrammelled by any future election campaigns is a terrifying thing to contemplate, not just for the US, but for the world. I hope I'm wrong, but Biden, as decent as he is, will be defeated by the uncritical, unthinking and complacent masses.

I will nevertheless buy Woodward's book.
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Old 9th September 2020, 09:55 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Since Woodward sat on this for months, I guess that makes him an accomplice to murder.
Bollocks to that!

Woodward releasing that tape would have made no difference. Trump would still have minimized the risk, he would still have claimed covid-19 was...

1. a Democrat Hoax,
2. no worse than the flu
3. all going away by itself
4. cureable with hydroxychoroquine
5. treatable by drinking/injecting bleach

... and the stupid dumb-***** who comprise his base and his sycophantic supporters would have believed him unconditionally.
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Old 9th September 2020, 11:03 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
CNN has a couple excerpts:

'Play it down': Trump admits to concealing the true threat of coronavirus in new Woodward book
Juxtaposed with Trump's public announcements at the same time makes it clear if dismissing the threat is some sort of planned panic mitigation, he's very incompetent at a minimum.

You can't be serious. Trump only said that the pandemic is a hoax invented by liberals because he knows that this accusation always serves to calm down his fans.
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Old 9th September 2020, 11:04 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Both sides suck

Only whenever it becomes too bloody obvious for you to deny that Trump's side sucks.
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Old 9th September 2020, 11:09 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Since Woodward sat on this for months, I guess that makes him an accomplice to murder.

Woodward didn't really sit on anything. Everybody, except for people in denial, knew that Trump was lying about the pandemic and about his pandemic response. It was always obvious, it was never a secret.
I don't even think that it was a secret to you!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th September 2020, 11:11 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
By minimising the risk, Trump was protecting his supporters, or at least the ones still able to vote. Right? Dead men cast no votes.

He wasn't exactly protecting supporters like Herman Cain ...
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th September 2020, 11:22 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Woodward didn't really sit on anything. Everybody, except for people in denial, knew that Trump was lying about the pandemic and about his pandemic response. It was always obvious, it was never a secret.
I don't even think that it was a secret to you!
Yeah, but defending Trump by pointing at squirrels is a favourite "go to" for some posters...
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Last edited by smartcooky; 9th September 2020 at 11:24 PM.
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Old 9th September 2020, 11:26 PM   #91
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Have Laura Ingraham, Tucker Carlson or Sean Hannity said anything yet?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
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Old 9th September 2020, 11:35 PM   #92
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Carlson blamed Lindsey Graham for encouraging Trump to talk to Woodward.
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Old 9th September 2020, 11:35 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Have Laura Ingraham, Tucker Carlson or Sean Hannity said anything yet?
Trump was on Hannity's show yesterday evening, so if you are courageous, you probably can watch it online.

I'll pass though.
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Old 10th September 2020, 12:41 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Both sides suck
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Old 10th September 2020, 12:43 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Firestone View Post
Trump was on Hannity's show yesterday evening, so if you are courageous, you probably can watch it online.

I'll pass though.
Be sure to take a flashlight and some breadcrumbs though as you'll have to crawl far up Trump's arse to see it.
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Old 10th September 2020, 01:20 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
But in this case, we have Trump's own words telling us that he didn't bother to consider anything beyond his own needs. There's no charity to be given, there's no confusion as to if he was honestly trying to do his best. He wasn't, and he knew it.
Fake news. Trump didn't say that. Or if he did it was taken out of context, or he was joking.

What, you have tapes? In that case you just don't understand what he was really saying.

And besides, IOKIYAAR.

But seriously, how would you craft a law to make Trump's lack of consideration a crime, but not that of other presidents? How would you ensure that this law isn't twisted by partisans to produce a result opposite to what you intended? Was Obama thinking of others when he wore that tan suit?
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Old 10th September 2020, 01:25 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Well that doesn't make her having anything both ways either.

So what was she having both ways?
It's buzzword argument, like you did when you first learned something new in the schoolyard.
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Old 10th September 2020, 04:29 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
It can be both. How does this not fit the standard as I quoted above? He took deliberate actions, knowing that they would likely result in death. He did it because he didn't care about those deaths, he cared only about his own needs. And it's not just that he failed to take action, which is usually what "dereliction" implies. He actually took actions that actively opposed the best practices as suggested by the most qualified experts he had available.






Up to now, we've suspected that Trump made deliberate choices that lead to the deaths of hundreds of thousands. But because Trump is also an idiot, there was just enough of a chance that he really was too stupid to understand the problem, and what he should be doing about it, that people could justify letting him off the hook. These recordings now prove that, while he is still an idiot, that's not the reason we're in the mess we're in now. He knew how bad it was, and chose to act as he did.
Dereliction of Duty is negligence, not murder, what you're proposing is nothing more than embellished hyperbole
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Old 10th September 2020, 04:57 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Dereliction of Duty is negligence, not murder, what you're proposing is nothing more than embellished hyperbole
I suppose it depends on the jurisdiction.

In some, dereliction of duty which leads to death can result in manslaughter charges.

In others, if those deaths could have been reasonably expected, then murder charges can be brought.

It also depends on whether it's a case of failing to take beneficial steps (for example failing to ensure that PPE is available) or taking steps which actively worsened the situation (for example denying blue states supplies if the Governor wasn't sufficiently flattering).
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Old 10th September 2020, 05:00 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I suppose it depends on the jurisdiction.

In some, dereliction of duty which leads to death can result in manslaughter charges.

In others, if those deaths could have been reasonably expected, then murder charges can be brought.

It also depends on whether it's a case of failing to take beneficial steps (for example failing to ensure that PPE is available) or taking steps which actively worsened the situation (for example denying blue states supplies if the Governor wasn't sufficiently flattering).
Even so, if we're splitting hairs, manslaughter, isn't murder. Murder is defined as done with intent, which as badly as he's handled Covid doesnt meet the definition. Those in the thread screaming otherwise are neck deep in their own hyperbole and intended hysteria. It's negligence, plain and simple.
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Old 10th September 2020, 05:07 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Even so, if we're splitting hairs, manslaughter, isn't murder. Murder is defined as done with intent, which as badly as he's handled Covid doesnt meet the definition. Those in the thread screaming otherwise are neck deep in their own hyperbole and intended hysteria. It's negligence, plain and simple.
Like I said, if death was a predictable consequence of the negligence then murder charges can be brought.

Likewise, if some acts can be shown to malicious (for example promoting treatments which are known to be ineffective or allocating resources on a partisan basis) rather than merely negligent, then that is more indicative of intent.
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Old 10th September 2020, 05:20 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Like I said, if death was a predictable consequence of the negligence then murder charges can be brought.

Likewise, if some acts can be shown to malicious (for example promoting treatments which are known to be ineffective or allocating resources on a partisan basis) rather than merely negligent, then that is more indicative of intent.


Rocky needs to go back and re-read the parts of my OP in the quote boxes.

This line in particular:

Quote:
If the risk of death or bodily harm is great enough, ignoring it demonstrates a "depraved indifference" to human life and the resulting death is considered to have been committed with malice aforethought.[1][2] In some states, depraved-heart killings constitute second-degree murder,[3] while in others, the act would be charged with varying degrees of manslaughter[4] or third-degree murder.

Depraved indifference leading to murder charges has a long history in the US. rocky's usual denials to the contrary, no one has yet explained why Trump's actions don't fit this standard.
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Old 10th September 2020, 05:21 AM   #103
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A couple of things that stood out for me:

Trump is remarkably coherent in the interviews, much better than during "chopper-talk" or press conferences or, god forbid, rallies.
He has the relevant data in his mind.
He is frank and not equivocating.

He told Woodward that he believed the virus to be way more infectious than the flu, talked about a 5% mortality rate.
And yet he kept on doing his rallies and attacked Democrats for doing a "hoax" when pointing out how much Trump was underplaying the risks.

This should, once and for all, put to rest the question whether Trump is more evil or stupid.

He is plenty stupid, but he is way more evil.
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Old 10th September 2020, 08:14 AM   #104
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Trump downplayed Covid and therefore many Americans, especially his followers, downplayed it. Downplaying it is a primary cause of the spread and resultant deaths. Had he not downplayed it, there wouldn't be as many deaths. I think that's pretty undeniable. Can you imagine how different things would have been if he had come out and been as direct as he was on those tapes? All those people protesting mask usage and lockdowns would have been quiet. The governors would have taken it way more seriously and enforced longer lockdowns. Trump wouldn't have been saying "let's open businesses fast." It would have been a totally different outcome. It's fair to lay the responsibility for all those incaculable excess deaths that occured at Trump's feet.

However, if you want to call it murder, I think that's hyperbole. If you think it's literally murder then you must also think that Bob Woodward (among others) is an accomplice to murder. He could have released the tapes when he recorded them. He could have shown the country that Trump was downplaying it and what Trump actually knew to be the truth about the situation. That may have had an impact; he could have at least tried. Instead, he withheld that information in order to sell books. Basically, Woodward allowed the murders to happen with no warning for his own personal gain.

If Woodward was writing about a suspected murderer and he had the suspect on tape saying he did it and was going to continue doing it, Woodward would have a duty to warn potential victims. He would have to take those tapes to the police. He could not just let the murders happen so that he could write about the murders and sell books. If you believe Trump's actions constitute murder, then Woodward had the same duty. If Trump and his accomplices in government should be tried for murder, then so should Woodward.

It's not murder; it's gross incompetence at best and negligence at worst. It was a bad decision to downplay the virus. That decision had tragic consequences. Trump should be impeached for lying to the American public and mishandling the Covid pandemic. He should at least lose this election by a landslide. But it's not literally murder.

Resolved: The thread title and OP is pure hyperbole.
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Old 10th September 2020, 08:19 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Rocky needs to go back and re-read the parts of my OP in the quote boxes.

This line in particular:




Depraved indifference leading to murder charges has a long history in the US. rocky's usual denials to the contrary, no one has yet explained why Trump's actions don't fit this standard.
Spare me when your title to the OP is so delightfully declarative, Trump: Murder: Case Closed; all your words. What Trump did was negligent, not murder. That's case closed. Move on with your idiotic nit picking over OMB. Yes he sucks, but his lack of covid ins't murder.
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Old 10th September 2020, 08:20 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Rocky needs to go back and re-read the parts of my OP in the quote boxes.

This line in particular:




Depraved indifference leading to murder charges has a long history in the US. rocky's usual denials to the contrary, no one has yet explained why Trump's actions don't fit this standard.
No need to just because you don't understand the legal definition of what constitutes murder. You're trying to move a legal goal post, but.... still not murder. But please keep nit picking... dont let me stop you.
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Old 10th September 2020, 08:22 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Resolved: The thread title and OP is pure hyperbole.
Does Trump have to summon ******* Cthulhu before the focus stops being about how over-dramatic the Libs are being about it?
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Old 10th September 2020, 08:22 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
A couple of things that stood out for me:

Trump is remarkably coherent in the interviews, much better than during "chopper-talk" or press conferences or, god forbid, rallies.
He has the relevant data in his mind.
He is frank and not equivocating.

He told Woodward that he believed the virus to be way more infectious than the flu, talked about a 5% mortality rate.
And yet he kept on doing his rallies and attacked Democrats for doing a "hoax" when pointing out how much Trump was underplaying the risks.

This should, once and for all, put to rest the question whether Trump is more evil or stupid.

He is plenty stupid, but he is way more evil.
Knowing and not acting is still negligence, so dereliction of duty yes, murder, no.
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Old 10th September 2020, 08:24 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Does Trump have to summon ******* Cthulhu before the focus stops being about how over-dramatic the Libs are being about it?
If you are referring to me, I never mentioned melodrama, or libs. YOU are doing some of that. I don't disgaree the whole thing has been mishandled, but it's still negligence, even more so than incompetence, but still. not. murder.

If there is something to say about the over drama, it is that if the lefties can't stick to the solid facts, and want to twist the truth, like the OP clearly is through embellishment, then they aren't very credible themseleves.
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Old 10th September 2020, 08:28 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Does Trump have to summon ******* Cthulhu before the focus stops being about how over-dramatic the Libs are being about it?
Being over-dramatic about things is a good way to not be taken seriously. Save the drama for your mamma -focus on the actual problem here without the hyperbole. This is bad for Trump as is. Hyperbole makes the hyperbolizer look a little crazy.
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Old 10th September 2020, 08:29 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Being over-dramatic about things is a good way to not be taken seriously.
Well that's just great. We'll let the world burn to the ground to teach the Libs a lesson about moderating the tone of their voice.
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Old 10th September 2020, 08:34 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Knowing and not acting is still negligence, so dereliction of duty yes, murder, no.
which, according to the Constitution, warrants Impeachment, wouldn't you agree?
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Old 10th September 2020, 08:41 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Well that's just great. We'll let the world burn to the ground to teach the Libs a lesson about moderating the tone of their voice.
Or maybe sticking to the straight truth to make their point before going the way of Michael Moore and letting falsehood be the ends that justifies the means, it doesn't.
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Old 10th September 2020, 08:42 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
which, according to the Constitution, warrants Impeachment, wouldn't you agree?
Many things can justify impeachment, but this isn't a case of murder. In any case, voting him out in November would accomplish much the same thing and likely be more expedient.
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Old 10th September 2020, 08:42 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Well that's just great. We'll let the world burn to the ground to teach the Libs a lesson about moderating the tone of their voice.
No one said that. I think Trump should be removed immediately given what we now know. I just don't think it helps anything to say, "Trump is guilty, literally, of murder." That kind of obviously false hyperbole* leads to a lot of people tuning out and not listening to what should be the core message: Trump lied to the American people and in so doing, made a bad situation worse. His decisions lead to needless deaths.


*Obama, for example, would be literally guilty of murder because of the "collateral damage" in the drone strikes he ordered. Just about every US President (hell, every world leader) has taken (or not taken) actions where the result was needless death. That's not murder. It does no good to call it murder.
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Old 10th September 2020, 08:44 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
No need to just because you don't understand the legal definition of what constitutes murder. You're trying to move a legal goal post, but.... still not murder. But please keep nit picking... dont let me stop you.


You keep ignoring the substance of what I posted about "depraved indifference", which, I'm sure you'll ignore again, is literally a legal definition of what constitutes "murder" in many US states.

But sure, go ahead and keep acting like it's all just "Orange Man Bad", since that's literally all you have.
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Old 10th September 2020, 08:44 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I just don't think it helps anything to say, "Trump is guilty, literally, of murder." That kind of obviously false hyperbole* leads to a lot of people tuning out and not listening to what should be the core message: Trump lied to the American people and in so doing, made a bad situation worse. His decisions lead to needless deaths.
^^^^^^^^ lies dont help the cause or justify the means
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Old 10th September 2020, 08:45 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
No one said that. I think Trump should be removed immediately given what we now know. I just don't think it helps anything to say, "Trump is guilty, literally, of murder." That kind of obviously false hyperbole* leads to a lot of people tuning out and not listening to what should be the core message: Trump lied to the American people and in so doing, made a bad situation worse. His decisions lead to needless deaths.


*Obama, for example, would be literally guilty of murder because of the "collateral damage" in the drone strikes he ordered. Just about every US President (hell, every world leader) has taken (or not taken) actions where the result was needless death. That's not murder. It does no good to call it murder.
Yeah a lot of people who seem to have to "Oh yeah Trump is bad, but the Libs being dramatic is the real crisis we have to address" attitude for some reason that will always elude me.
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Old 10th September 2020, 08:48 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah a lot of people who seem to have to "Oh yeah Trump is bad, but the Libs being dramatic is the real crisis we have to address" attitude for some reason that will always elude me.
Using lies to sell your message not helping eludes you, really....?
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Old 10th September 2020, 08:51 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
You keep ignoring the substance of what I posted about "depraved indifference", which, I'm sure you'll ignore again, is literally a legal definition of what constitutes "murder" in many US states.

But sure, go ahead and keep acting like it's all just "Orange Man Bad", since that's literally all you have.
From: https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/murd...ll%20murder%22

At common law, murder was defined as killing another human being with malice aforethought. Malice aforethought is a legal term of art, that encompasses the following types of murder:

"Intent-to-kill murder"
"Grievous-bodily-harm murder" - Killing someone in an attack intended to cause them grievous bodily harm. For example, if the defendant fatally stabbed the victom, even if the defendant only intended to wound the victim, the defendant would still be liable for murder.
"Felony-murder" - Killing someone while in the process of committing a felony. Note that at common law, there were few felonies, and all carried the death penalty. For example, at common law, robbery was a felony. So if a robber accidentally killed someone during a robbery, the robber could be executed.
"Depraved heart murder" - Killing someone in a way that demonstrates a callous disregard for the value of human life. For example, if a person intentionally fires a gun into a crowded room, and someone dies, the person could be convicted of depraved heart murder.

Still needs to be directly the killer, it says nothing of heinous indifference, you are trying to move the goal post, your title is a falsehood, deal with it.
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