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Old 19th July 2017, 08:19 PM   #681
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Lol... The civil war was pretty much literally a war for self-government based on economic interest!

Said economic interest being the preservation and continuation of Negro chattel slavery.

Back to you.
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Old 19th July 2017, 09:33 PM   #682
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
<snip>

Seven million people died in that war on both sides simply because no one wanted to be rational, it accomplished absolutely nothing.

<snip>

Beg pardon?

The numbers I have seen range from 750,000 to something over 1,000,000 dead including free civilians and slaves. (620,000 to 750,000 of them soldiers killed in combat or combat related causes.)

It was plenty horrific enough. More American deaths than all of the wars we have fought since then.

No need to exaggerate.
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Old Yesterday, 07:25 AM   #683
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Wrong. Tax was simply one easy-to-understand example of the result of being governed without representation; I'm sure you're aware there were others.

More than the "taxation without representation" it was the Quartering Act that stimulated the reaction of the colonists against the excesses of the British government, an act which was protested as a violation of British law. One could argue it was this particular bit of legislation that set the first pebble bouncing down the mountainside.
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Old Yesterday, 08:24 AM   #684
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
More than the "taxation without representation" it was the Quartering Act that stimulated the reaction of the colonists against the excesses of the British government, an act which was protested as a violation of British law. One could argue it was this particular bit of legislation that set the first pebble bouncing down the mountainside.
Yeah, this is interesting. The 3rd amendment actually involves quartering of soldiers. You read that today and it seems so mundane, but obviously, at the time the Constitution was written, it was pretty important. So important that it had to be delineated in the Bill of Rights.

It doesn't address relative importance of issues, but shows that it mattered. Were we to rewrite the constitution today, I doubt anyone would think to put that in.
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Old Yesterday, 10:41 AM   #685
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Said economic interest being the preservation and continuation of Negro chattel slavery.

Back to you.
Very succinct and accurate, thank you.
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Old Yesterday, 01:39 PM   #686
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
.
Why shouldn't it? Of what value does it serve?
Why shouldn't any piece of public art or sculpture be removed? Of what value do any of them serve?
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Old Yesterday, 01:43 PM   #687
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
That is completely different from (and much less attractive than) what you were saying before, which was
Applying the moral judgment of "heinous" to an act that was not universally viewed as such at the time.

Again, defining it as objectively wrong at the time.
You were saying, things can't be defined as immoral unless they were perceived to be such when they happened. Now you're saying "well if my peers think something is moral, what's the point of my going to the trouble of offending them?"
That is not any argument. If you think your peers are behaving immorally, it is both possible and necessary to oppose and offend them.

The South should therefore be erecting monuments in honour of the minority of abolitionists in the company of their ancestors who risked ostracism, and much worse, in the fight against bondage.
Wow. That was a really interesting snipping of my quote, and an unusual reading of it. Especially that whole bit where you start inserting "if your peers are behaving immorally" while ignoring the section of my post that immediately followed it. To wit:
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'm comfortable with my own view of morality, and I'm confident that I am a moral person. Acting against that moral base would be senseless and pointless, and serve no purpose at all. What part of society's views do you think I should have any reason to act in opposition to? There are many topics that don't have a social consensus. I have my own opinion of them, but at present there's no view that I hold that is in opposition to a clear consensus that has any reason for me to act against.
Is there a question that you're beating around the bush about? What is it that you're actually trying to ask? Just ask that question.
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Old Yesterday, 01:45 PM   #688
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Why shouldn't any piece of public art or sculpture be removed? Of what value do any of them serve?
Many different values that depends on the piece, the location, and the society.
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Old Yesterday, 01:47 PM   #689
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Said economic interest being the preservation and continuation of Negro chattel slavery.

Back to you.
Yep. Still about economics though.
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Old Yesterday, 02:19 PM   #690
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Beg pardon?

The numbers I have seen range from 750,000 to something over 1,000,000 dead including free civilians and slaves. (620,000 to 750,000 of them soldiers killed in combat or combat related causes.)

It was plenty horrific enough. More American deaths than all of the wars we have fought since then.

No need to exaggerate.

Sorry, I read the number wrong.
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Old Yesterday, 02:27 PM   #691
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Why shouldn't any piece of public art or sculpture be removed? Of what value do any of them serve?
We're not talking about a piece of public art or sculpture. We're talking about a memorial with no connection to the area or, really, history.
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Old Yesterday, 02:29 PM   #692
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Yep. Still about economics though.
The memorial wasn't about the war, of course. It was about the "Spirit of the Confederacy" and the Confederacy was founded on slavery.
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Old Yesterday, 07:56 PM   #693
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I don't know anything about Lost Cause whatever it is.
Speaking of memorials. I'd like this bronzed.

"Here, y'all I don't know anything about the topic at all and I'd sure like to share it with you."
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Old Yesterday, 10:54 PM   #694
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Yep. Still about economics though.

Because we don't want to remind anyone about that whole ugly "slavery" thing.

So lets all just pretend it wasn't the entire point of the war and say "economics" instead.

Maybe no one will notice.
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Old Today, 05:54 AM   #695
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This is a little child arguing that them breaking the cookie jar wasn't about them wanting to sneak a cookie before mealtime so they tried to reach the jar but tipped it over off the counter onto the floor but gravity.

This whole "It's not about the thing, it's about the thing that's about thing" kind of reductionism parading moral relativism is laughably transparent. By this logic every argument could replaced with "Because entropy."
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