ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 27th November 2019, 07:09 PM   #441
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 44,470
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I didn't read any links in this thread. I figure that the proponents can explain it to me. Anyway the $1000 won't work no matter whose butt it comes from.

Some people are arguing that it's too much and everybody will just drop out and spend the rest of their lives playing Tomb Raider, and you're arguing that it's far too low and nobody could survive.

Maybe it's about right in that case.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2019, 07:13 PM   #442
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 23,977
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
You tell someone who doesn't have a home that he's going to get $1000 a month on this new system. Is he going to say lousy system, I can't get a place of my own in the inner city for that?
You are welcome to tell that person you are giving them $1000 per month. But you better not say anything about rent, food, utilities and necessities. Because if you do that's when the lies start to happen. That's when the bait-and-switches happen.

He can't have a place of his own in the "inner city" for $1000.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2019, 07:13 PM   #443
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 15,497
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I find it far more strange to base an economy on the notion that there are more people willing to work harder than they have to than there are people willing to cut down their standard of living in exchange for working less.
Yeah. More people are going to quit their jobs, sell their house and move to a trailer park so that they can twiddle their thumbs all day.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2019, 07:14 PM   #444
deadrose
Illuminator
 
deadrose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: the wet side of the mountains
Posts: 3,289
I guess I shouldn't have deleted what I wrote about the cost of even a micro-studio with shared kitchen being unaffordable on $1000/mo. Houses you can share are increasingly scarce, as developers tear them down to cram multiple tiny apartments in their place.

Also good luck moving somewhere else on that $1000/mo. First, last, deposit, cleaning fees, nonrefundable application fees, screening fees.... and that doesn't even count how you're going to physically move yourself and your belongings.
deadrose is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2019, 07:16 PM   #445
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 15,497
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
There are going to be a lot of those people. Plenty of lazy bastards are going to sit around and do nothing because they get $2000 free every month from UBI.
If you have to use a ridiculous number like that to make your point then you don't have a point.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2019, 07:19 PM   #446
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 44,470
Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
I guess I shouldn't have deleted what I wrote about the cost of even a micro-studio with shared kitchen being unaffordable on $1000/mo. Houses you can share are increasingly scarce, as developers tear them down to cram multiple tiny apartments in their place.

Also good luck moving somewhere else on that $1000/mo. First, last, deposit, cleaning fees, nonrefundable application fees, screening fees.... and that doesn't even count how you're going to physically move yourself and your belongings.

I'm not familiar with the situation in your area, but if you have people who had no money to enter the market at all before, now having money to enter the market, might this not be an opportunity for their requirements to be catered for?
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2019, 07:20 PM   #447
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 65,238
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
In summary: I don't think a "universal" basic income makes much sense. I think a better approach would probably be a means-tested, outcome-oriented stipend program for people who need it, with the goal of getting them to the point where they no longer need it.
In other words, welfare. Maybe better welfare, but you're describing welfare.
__________________
Self-described nerd.

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2019, 07:21 PM   #448
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 44,470
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
You are welcome to tell that person you are giving them $1000 per month. But you better not say anything about rent, food, utilities and necessities. Because if you do that's when the lies start to happen. That's when the bait-and-switches happen.

He can't have a place of his own in the "inner city" for $1000.

And I don't believe anyone ever suggested telling him that he could. He has options now that he didn't have before. Move somewhere cheap. Get together in a group to rent somewhere small.

The aim is to reduce and minimise destitution and severe hardship. Not to give everyone everything they want.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2019, 07:22 PM   #449
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 44,470
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
In other words, welfare. Maybe better welfare, but you're describing welfare.

Nah, it's not even "better welfare". In principle it's just welfare.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2019, 07:26 PM   #450
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 23,977
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Not to give everyone everything they want.
You said that it would provide basic life necessities. Shelter (which is rent), utilities, food and other necessities. You said those things.

$1000 won't even give them that let alone "everything they want".
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2019, 07:41 PM   #451
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 15,497
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
You said that it would provide basic life necessities. Shelter (which is rent), utilities, food and other necessities. You said those things.

$1000 won't even give them that let alone "everything they want".
Will $0 do that?
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2019, 07:45 PM   #452
deadrose
Illuminator
 
deadrose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: the wet side of the mountains
Posts: 3,289
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I'm not familiar with the situation in your area, but if you have people who had no money to enter the market at all before, now having money to enter the market, might this not be an opportunity for their requirements to be catered for?
Are you joking? They're busy tearing down all the affordable housing to replace it with luxury housing. Housing is for investment now, not for actually housing people. Many of the luxury apartments sit vacant, have never been occupied, but they're doing their jobs as investments, while families live in their cars. Welcome to late-stage capitalism.
deadrose is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2019, 07:48 PM   #453
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 23,977
It's such a wrong way to go about promoting an idea. Step 1, shake your fist at your audience. Step 2, give your audience the finger.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2019, 07:55 PM   #454
Suddenly
No Punting
 
Suddenly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Montani Semper Liberi
Posts: 3,354
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post

I think this discussion will probably work better if we focus on pragmatic questions, rather than trying to guess and condemn the perceived moral judgements in each other's arguments.
Forgive me if this has been brought up, but...

Having a viable UBI could have some interesting policy effects because capital can no longer use workers as human shields.

Like the coal industry. Advances that would make coal unnecessary would be like curing smallpox. So to protect itself the industry just talks about what a shame it would be to put miners out of work and devastate communities. If you completely take away this aspect of energy sector propaganda and the conversation about fossil fuel extraction gets very different.

Between the environmental benefits, and even without global warming the environmental benefits would be huge, and the benefits of that innovation, we come out way ahead there.

It is way too complex to forecast, but my guess is that ironing out the inefficiencies caused by fear of job loss and cynical exploitation of that fear will prove a huge benefit. .
Suddenly is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2019, 07:56 PM   #455
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 10,783
UBI would be a tremendous boost to rural communities were 1,000 is something you can actually live on in some comfort.
__________________
“Impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”-Sen. Lindsey Graham
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2019, 07:59 PM   #456
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 23,977
Check out the rent in a rural community. How much is it?

Are you in the north? How much is heat in the winter?
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2019, 08:06 PM   #457
Distracted1
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 3,358
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
You said that it would provide basic life necessities. Shelter (which is rent), utilities, food and other necessities. You said those things.

$1000 won't even give them that let alone "everything they want".
If a single individual without dependants or other qualified deductions has their wages levied by the I.R.S., the government leaves them a minimum of approx. $250 per week to live on.

Thus, it might be argued that the federal gov. considers that amount sufficient to survive on.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2019, 08:22 PM   #458
Suddenly
No Punting
 
Suddenly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Montani Semper Liberi
Posts: 3,354
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Check out the rent in a rural community. How much is it?

Are you in the north? How much is heat in the winter?
With 1k in UBI and 1K for a side hustle around here you are more thinking buy than rent. It is just a different universe out here.

Figure here, and my town isn't the completely cheapest way to go, a house with a $500 mortgage payment including taxes and insurance wouldn't be unusual. The house would be modest and benefit from TLC, but solidly habitable.

Gas is about $100/mo on the budget plan. For me that includes hot water and the stove, and my house is a bit larger than the $500 ones I'm talking about.

If you want to go way cheap I could find you something marginally habitable for more like $20K.

All of this has good access to basic services and within 1 hour drive of a major city.

As it is I can't get a lawyer to come here even paying more than what is customary for what we do...
Suddenly is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2019, 08:24 PM   #459
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 23,977
Distracted1, the government is full of crap on that bit.

Regardless, I seek to treat poor people much better than the government does. I seek to treat poor people much better than the proponents who are posting in this thread.

I seek to give them a proper amount to live on without luxuries.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2019, 08:50 PM   #460
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 23,977
Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
With 1k in UBI and 1K for a side hustle around here you are more thinking buy than rent. It is just a different universe out here.
The sales pitch is that no side hustle is necessary.

What is the rent for a 1 bedroom place around you?
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

Last edited by William Parcher; 27th November 2019 at 08:51 PM.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2019, 08:54 PM   #461
NewtonTrino
Illuminator
 
NewtonTrino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,390
Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
With 1k in UBI and 1K for a side hustle around here you are more thinking buy than rent. It is just a different universe out here.

Figure here, and my town isn't the completely cheapest way to go, a house with a $500 mortgage payment including taxes and insurance wouldn't be unusual. The house would be modest and benefit from TLC, but solidly habitable.

Gas is about $100/mo on the budget plan. For me that includes hot water and the stove, and my house is a bit larger than the $500 ones I'm talking about.

If you want to go way cheap I could find you something marginally habitable for more like $20K.

All of this has good access to basic services and within 1 hour drive of a major city.

As it is I can't get a lawyer to come here even paying more than what is customary for what we do...

This is why it would be smart to move out of town and buy something. Get a group of people going, build a compound and you are set.
NewtonTrino is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2019, 08:55 PM   #462
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,976
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Distracted1, the government is full of crap on that bit.

Regardless, I seek to treat poor people much better than the government does. I seek to treat poor people much better than the proponents who are posting in this thread.

I seek to give them a proper amount to live on without luxuries.

Ya, $1000 a month is pure fantasy even for a homeless person, especially around these parts.

Do Californian's get more per month? I can't rent a room within 40 miles of San Jose for less than $800. I need like $3k for basic stuff.

Some people think much more highly of the average human than I do. Will this victim mentality ever end? "Gimme gimme gimme, I deserve, life's unfair" What a joke.

Welfare. Make it better. Make it temporary and case by case. Off the cuff idea. Something else, but no BUI.

Look how dysfunctional government is right now. Our best bet is to keep them out of our lives as much as possible. When did that stop being a thing?

ETA:
I'm pretty damned poor these days. Leave me alone. I don't want your money and I don't want to give you any more of what I have. Good luck selling a BUI here.
__________________
Franklin understands certain kickbacks you obtain unfairly are legal liabilities; however, a risky deed's almost never detrimental despite extra external pressures.

Last edited by mgidm86; 27th November 2019 at 08:58 PM.
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2019, 09:21 PM   #463
Suddenly
No Punting
 
Suddenly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Montani Semper Liberi
Posts: 3,354
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The sales pitch is that no side hustle is necessary.

What is the rent for a 1 bedroom place around you?
The side hustle is built into the plan and would be hard to avoid. However, in that case having three people sharing costs would cover it.

There is no standardized market for rental and not many dedicated apartment buildings, mostly just stuff here or there, rooms above garages, businesses, etc. I was looking at a two bedroom that was $400 at one point. One bedrooms are rare but tend to be really cheap and small. Probably find you something for $200 or less, just that it will be strange.

The rental market is really weird here because of the fracking companies bringing in temporary workers. These days they have more of a camper village thing going, but they push up rental prices a touch.

...and that is before looking into trailers and such.
Suddenly is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2019, 09:41 PM   #464
Suddenly
No Punting
 
Suddenly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Montani Semper Liberi
Posts: 3,354
Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
This is why it would be smart to move out of town and buy something. Get a group of people going, build a compound and you are set.
Why build?

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2...22503924_zpid/

Walking distance to pretty much all essential services, and enough public transit to get around the greater area.

Well within the bounds of 5 people each getting 1K/mo.

It is a pretty solid place to be poor, as these things go.
Suddenly is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2019, 10:44 PM   #465
NewtonTrino
Illuminator
 
NewtonTrino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,390
Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Why build?

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2...22503924_zpid/

Walking distance to pretty much all essential services, and enough public transit to get around the greater area.

Well within the bounds of 5 people each getting 1K/mo.

It is a pretty solid place to be poor, as these things go.
Yeah that would work. I was picturing something with some acreage though where you can grow over time as your family expands.

Either way definitely doable in many places in this country.
NewtonTrino is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2019, 12:19 AM   #466
Orphia Nay
Penguilicious Spodmaster.
Tagger
 
Orphia Nay's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables).
Posts: 37,231
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Well, somebody needs to be productive, otherwise you don't have any wealth to distribute as UBI.

Also, your survival depends on productivity. If someone - ideally you - isn't producing a certain minimum amount of food and shelter, you will die. Call that one unit of productivity. It's not a question of everyone being maximally productive, it's a question of being minimally productive. If we aren't producing at least one unit of productivity per person, people will start dying.

Obviously some people simply can't produce that much. The disabled and the infirm for example. Which means that among the rest of us, we have to come up with at minimum our own unit of productivity, plus an extra unit for each of those who can't produce.

Not everybody needs to produce. As long as enough of us are producing enough to cover everyone, some can opt out of the rat race. But the more opt out, the more the rest of us have to produce, to cover their needs.

I hope this answers your questions. I hope you will answer these questions of mine:

If I choose to produce enough to cover two UBIs, and you choose to produce nothing at all, should I be compelled to split what I've earned with you? If I choose to produce less, rather than split it with you, should I be compelled to produce more anyway, to subsidize your choice not to produce at all?

Tell us how you set a price on your labour.


What are you imagining people who "don't produce anything" do all day?


What percentage of people do you think fit your idea of of this person?



Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
That is not an answer to my question, which was, why does everybody have to be productive? Or as productive as possible?
Busy, busy, busy. Doing what?

If we have very efficient, high yield farms using renewable machines and monitoring systems, and very efficient, well-designed, sustainable and economical homes, what else do we really need?

(We already waste 30% of food produced now. I started a thread on improving food distribution and international trade/borders last week.)

UBI can be as much or as little as we decide.

How long is a UBI piece of blockchain currency? #canofworms



Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Okay, then. Perhaps the sales pitch will find more success with other people. As a successful capitalist selling my labor and reaping the rewards of it I must not be the target audience.

I'll wait patiently for human nature to change so the scheme can be implemented. In the meantime I'll keep myself entertained with my riches.
That idea of human nature is what needs to change.

Kamahl, the Indian-Australian singer on "Hey Hey it's Saturday" (the TV show notorious in the US for blackface in the eighties) had a saying for every time he got his own back on the hosts (funny the US didn't mention that):

"I suffered for my Art, and now it's your turn".

Your logic is, "I suffered for my money, and now it's your turn".

The difference between you and the show's "bit" is, Kamahl and the hosts were all very good friends.

(I'm not in any way agreeing with the "talent contest" contestants wearing blackface.)

You appear to seriously wish those without your knowledge or life experiences to suffer.
__________________
"We stigmatize and send to the margins
people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid"
- Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift".

Last edited by Orphia Nay; 28th November 2019 at 12:22 AM.
Orphia Nay is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2019, 12:21 AM   #467
Orphia Nay
Penguilicious Spodmaster.
Tagger
 
Orphia Nay's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables).
Posts: 37,231
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I didn't read any links in this thread. I figure that the proponents can explain it to me.
You're asking for a free handout.
__________________
"We stigmatize and send to the margins
people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid"
- Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift".
Orphia Nay is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2019, 12:22 AM   #468
Orphia Nay
Penguilicious Spodmaster.
Tagger
 
Orphia Nay's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables).
Posts: 37,231
Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
UBI might increase productivity. Lift a large percentage of people up from the brink of poverty where all they can do is think about where their next meal is going to come from, and some of them might actually decide to do something more worthwhile with their lives. There's your metric.

Why is the expectation that people who don't have to work to meet their basic needs, won't work? Why can't the expectation be that people who aren't forced to do a job that society considers worthless (based on the meagre salary) will go and do something that has more value?
Yes, we discussed rats in a rat park a few days ago, and it wasn't debunked. Cheers for mentioning it.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The beauty of UBI is that if your passion is in something that is difficult to monetise, you don't have to do something you hate in order to survive. The stereotype of the "starving artist" is destroyed.
Exactly.



Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
That is an extremely good point which I hadn't specifically considered. If existing on the bare UBI is preferable to making a pittance more by cleaning toilets or something, then the people who want someone to clean the toilets will have to put the wages up until the job becomes attractive.

I'm not sure how the possibility of bringing in migrant workers who aren't getting the UBI interacts with this. Maybe it's something that needs thought.
Exactly.

Nobody wants to pay the supermarket "Checkout Chicks" more, despite them being Conflict Incident Managers, and Public Relations Specialists.

Nobody wants to pay the Administration Assistants higher wages, despite the CEO not even being able to print documents double-sided or even read documents on a screen. "Administration Assistants" is a name that diminishes all the jobs they really do. IT, Social Media Managers, Customer IT Help Desk, Office Managers, Business Analysts, Data Management, Training Manager, Compliance Officer, and I could go on a big rant here...

Huge companies are now fighting to promote their efforts in ethical working conditions.

China no longer is the cowboy capitalists' country of choice for fast, disposable fashion.

Sadly, though, Bangladesh, Indonesia, and Brazil's old growth and remote areas are being polluted and locals exploited.

"Development" and "exploitation" are weirdly intertwined with the colonialist ideals of "civilising the savages", introducing medicine and technology to Level 4 countries/regions (low income, formerly known as "third world" places).

Eliminating Inequality is one of the UN's 17 Sustainable Development Goals for 2030.

SDG's 1, 8, and 10, but they are all interrelated.

__________________
"We stigmatize and send to the margins
people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid"
- Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift".

Last edited by Orphia Nay; 28th November 2019 at 12:27 AM.
Orphia Nay is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2019, 12:47 AM   #469
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 13,309
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
You said that it would provide basic life necessities. Shelter (which is rent), utilities, food and other necessities. You said those things.

$1000 won't even give them that let alone "everything they want".
Rolfe didn't say anything about where you'd have to live in order to pay a cheap enough rent, or who you'd have to room with. "You said it would be enough to pay my rent! I want to live in that mansion!" isn't an argument.

And even Rolfe is wrong that $1000/month would be enough for the bare necessities of life, so what? For many people living near the poverty line it would be a big help and give them the capital necessary to invest in themselves and make improvements in their lives that could help them to get out of poverty.

Don't make the best the enemy of the good.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2019, 01:56 AM   #470
Elaedith
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 987
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
But the sales pitch that you've been giving in this thread is that the UBI provides shelter, food, utilities and all other basic living necessities for a person without any other form of income. Also there is no requirement that the recipient live in a group.
That isn't the sales pitch. There was nothing about people not having to live in a group or promising any particular life style. The only requirement is that you can potentially cover your basic needs as least as adequately as is the case now with existing welfare systems. If you really want to try to live on just UBI alone and not supplement it in any way you would probably need to go to considerable lengths to set yourself up for the cheapest possible lifestyle, which would be considered an 'alternative' or atypical lifestyle to most current ones people choose.

It is assumed that most people will find a way to at least supplement UBI most of the time, and there is strong incentive to do so because you are always better off earning something. That is one selling point.

The original suggested amount was what is currently the tax-free threshold in the UK, since that is the amount the government suggests people need to earn to live before they should start being taxed. That is currently £12,500 which is about US$16,170 or $1,347 per month. However, it could be less than that if turns out that too many people opt not to supplement that or more if it turns out that more would have positive economic effects.
Elaedith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2019, 05:00 AM   #471
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 44,470
As regards the amount, $1000 (which is about £775) isn't unliveable on here at a modest lifestyle. It's basic and it's not easy, but people are doing it. The maximum state retirement pension works out at £753 per month and while many people also have private pensions there are people who "only have the state pension" and are not out on the streets.

£800 a month would be approximately £200 a week, and it's not at all uncommon for people in articles about low income to be reported as having well under £200 a week. And while they're probably struggling again they're not out on the street. (Also, this may be someone with dependent children or even a couple, so in a UBI situation they'd have more than one person's UBI in the family.)

£1000 a month, which is about $1290 a month, is £12,000 per year which is still a bit under the threshhold at which tax liability kicks in at £12,500 pa, is actually considered to be something people can live on and they do. It's not uncommon to find people living on that. Indeed it's not uncommon to find couples living on a joint income less than £12,000 pa.

So I don't think £1000 a month, or indeed $1000 a month, is unreasonably low as a very basic safety net. Indeed as has been pointed out, double that for a couple or even two friends pooling resources might even be described as generous.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2019, 05:14 AM   #472
Elaedith
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 987
Of course there are situations where somebody cannot live on that in their current living arrangements, and cannot afford to move, or where it wouldn't make sense to move (e.g. somebody loses a job and can't find another immediately, but expects to before too long). There are various low-cost possibilities that could be added to the scheme to allow for this. For example, an emergency loan that is paid back in small installments from UBI (since everybody gets UBI, there is no need to worry about not getting the money back).
Elaedith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2019, 09:41 AM   #473
NewtonTrino
Illuminator
 
NewtonTrino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,390
Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
Of course there are situations where somebody cannot live on that in their current living arrangements, and cannot afford to move, or where it wouldn't make sense to move (e.g. somebody loses a job and can't find another immediately, but expects to before too long). There are various low-cost possibilities that could be added to the scheme to allow for this. For example, an emergency loan that is paid back in small installments from UBI (since everybody gets UBI, there is no need to worry about not getting the money back).
Good idea! Emergency loans when you get into trouble could really help out in a jam. Although if you have to pay it back with your UBI wouldn't that mean you are just pushing the problem further down the road? This is what happens to people who take payday loans. So I think to mitigate that the payback would have to be over a long period of time or something.

I'm really looking forward to pulling my kids out of college if we get UBI. First off it will save a ton of money in paying for college, and secondly what's the point if they don't ever need to work? Given the current price it's not really worth it anyway (it costs me around $25k per year to send one).
NewtonTrino is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2019, 09:46 AM   #474
NewtonTrino
Illuminator
 
NewtonTrino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,390
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
As regards the amount, $1000 (which is about £775) isn't unliveable on here at a modest lifestyle. It's basic and it's not easy, but people are doing it. The maximum state retirement pension works out at £753 per month and while many people also have private pensions there are people who "only have the state pension" and are not out on the streets.

£800 a month would be approximately £200 a week, and it's not at all uncommon for people in articles about low income to be reported as having well under £200 a week. And while they're probably struggling again they're not out on the street. (Also, this may be someone with dependent children or even a couple, so in a UBI situation they'd have more than one person's UBI in the family.)

£1000 a month, which is about $1290 a month, is £12,000 per year which is still a bit under the threshhold at which tax liability kicks in at £12,500 pa, is actually considered to be something people can live on and they do. It's not uncommon to find people living on that. Indeed it's not uncommon to find couples living on a joint income less than £12,000 pa.

So I don't think £1000 a month, or indeed $1000 a month, is unreasonably low as a very basic safety net. Indeed as has been pointed out, double that for a couple or even two friends pooling resources might even be described as generous.
Last time I was in Scotland my overall impression was of a place that was pretty economically depressed. I would think there would be a number of places you could live fairly cheap.

On one of our day trips (we hired a 4wd vehicle) we went up to Peterhead thinking we would stop there for lunch. Well that didn't go so well as there wasn't really much in the way of open restaurants! Scotland just seems so empty to me. I guess the clearances worked.

Almost all of my ancestors are from Aberdeenshire and I was able to check out my great-great-great-grandfathers house in Aberdeen. Neat stuff but I'm glad my ancestors bailed for more prosperity.
NewtonTrino is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2019, 09:53 AM   #475
Elaedith
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 987
Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
I'm really looking forward to pulling my kids out of college if we get UBI. First off it will save a ton of money in paying for college, and secondly what's the point if they don't ever need to work? Given the current price it's not really worth it anyway (it costs me around $25k per year to send one).
Why are they bothering to go to college now if they don't need to earn more than $1000 a month for the rest of their lives? I'm sure you can help them get a job earning that without college.
Elaedith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2019, 09:59 AM   #476
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 15,497
Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
I'm really looking forward to pulling my kids out of college if we get UBI. First off it will save a ton of money in paying for college, and secondly what's the point if they don't ever need to work? Given the current price it's not really worth it anyway (it costs me around $25k per year to send one).
I don't understand your constant sarcastic objections.

UBI is not a panacea. It is just an alternative to the existing welfare system. Relatively few people would prefer to live at a subsistence level on welfare if they can make more money through employment and UBI is less of a disincentive to employment since it is not cut once somebody gets a job.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2019, 10:12 AM   #477
NewtonTrino
Illuminator
 
NewtonTrino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,390
Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
Why are they bothering to go to college now if they don't need to earn more than $1000 a month for the rest of their lives? I'm sure you can help them get a job earning that without college.
My wife is insisten is what it boils down to. I personally think college is overpriced and not worth it. I also don't think the kids are taking it seriously enough because to me if you are going to go you should really be focused on it.
NewtonTrino is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2019, 10:16 AM   #478
NewtonTrino
Illuminator
 
NewtonTrino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,390
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I don't understand your constant sarcastic objections.

UBI is not a panacea. It is just an alternative to the existing welfare system. Relatively few people would prefer to live at a subsistence level on welfare if they can make more money through employment and UBI is less of a disincentive to employment since it is not cut once somebody gets a job.
I see it as basically removing the link between living and work. I don't know if that's a panacea but I think it makes sense to plan to live and make work completely secondary. Live your best life and not worry about making a living going to a 9 to 5 job.

I really think you are underestimating how far the UBI can go if you put some "work" into managing it. I would expect our family to be able to live comfortably and slowly grow an investment portfolio that over time can turn into even more income.

One of the reasons people want to make more money is so they can save up enough to retire and not have to go to a job every day. Well, mission accomplished with UBI.

I've been semi-retired now for a few years and it's great not having to show up at an office every day. Sitting in a cubicle on a sunny day poking away at a computer? Why bother when you can be outside playing volleyball at the beach?

From what I've seen most people aren't terribly satisfied with their jobs. Maybe people will find things they are more enamored with to work on, who knows as the big shakeout happens.
NewtonTrino is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2019, 10:38 AM   #479
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 44,470
Here's a reason I'd like to see a UBI this side of the pond. I don't know how it is in Murrica.

https://thepoorsideof.life/2019/11/2...a-food-parcel/

Think of the misery that would be saved. Think of the amount that could be saved by not carrying out means testing and making people jump through ever-smaller hoops to get a pittance. The DWP staff and their security guards can live on the UBI themselves until they find something more useful to do.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2019, 11:33 AM   #480
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 41,371
Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
From what I've seen most people aren't terribly satisfied with their jobs. Maybe people will find things they are more enamored with to work on, who knows as the big shakeout happens.
This is essentially just a positive spin on "the UBI will make people less productive".

If most people will stop putting in the effort they need to survive, then where are you getting the wealth to distribute as UBI? According to you, most people are going to opt out of doing the hard work, given the option.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:39 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.