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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , 2020 elections , democratic party , presidential candidates

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Old 7th December 2019, 12:48 PM   #3121
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
It's time to stop defending an old, white billionaire and his use of racist dog whistle language just because he's a Democrat. You're part of the problem.


And you support Trump?
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Old 7th December 2019, 01:21 PM   #3122
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"Well-spoken" is generally a compliment. In historical context, however, it can be a very back-handed compliment when used to describe a black person. The implication is that the person is "well-spoken, considering that he's black." I doubt Bloomberg was aware of the subtext.


Similarly, one cannot use "articulate" or a host of other descriptors, whether or not the speaker intends to be demeaning. The message heard is not always the message sent. Locutions become necessary. For example, "I've seldom heard anyone defend a thesis as clearly and as cogently as X did." This makes it clear the the playing field includes all, regardless of race.


Silly, but unavoidable if one wants to ensure not giving offense while trying to offer a compliment.
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Old 7th December 2019, 01:24 PM   #3123
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Well, other than where you talked about how it wouldn't affect your mom's vote.
Yes, you were clever to introduce this distraction, and people did fall for it. Well played. I'm serious.
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Old 7th December 2019, 01:54 PM   #3124
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
Cory Booker disagrees.
Booker is using this for the same reason you are; it fits his agenda. It gives him something to criticize a political opponent for. Claiming that someone is articulate is always a dog whistle for racism is ridiculous. Booker IS articulate. Obama IS articulate. I voted twice for Obama and two of the things I admired most about him were his intelligence and the way he could express himself with so much class. Saying so is not racist unless one means it to be so and I seriously doubt Bloomberg meant it as such. Sometimes a banana is just a banana and, in this case, it was just a damn banana.

You lied about what Bloomberg said; he never said "for a black person". That was all you.
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Old 7th December 2019, 01:55 PM   #3125
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Originally Posted by DallasDad View Post
"Well-spoken" is generally a compliment. In historical context, however, it can be a very back-handed compliment when used to describe a black person. The implication is that the person is "well-spoken, considering that he's black." I doubt Bloomberg was aware of the subtext.


Similarly, one cannot use "articulate" or a host of other descriptors, whether or not the speaker intends to be demeaning. The message heard is not always the message sent. Locutions become necessary. For example, "I've seldom heard anyone defend a thesis as clearly and as cogently as X did." This makes it clear the the playing field includes all, regardless of race.


Silly, but unavoidable if one wants to ensure not giving offense while trying to offer a compliment.
Sometimes people see things that aren't there because it's what they want to see.
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Old 7th December 2019, 02:01 PM   #3126
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


And you support Trump?
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Old 7th December 2019, 02:50 PM   #3127
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Bloomberg is possibly planning on a third-party run.

What the hell is he even doing this late in the game? Waste of millions of dollars just because he can.

Bloomberg is irrelevant.
Bloomberg is running an extremely effective single-issue campaign. His run is incontrovertible proof we should tax the bejeesus out of the ultra rich.
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Old 7th December 2019, 03:32 PM   #3128
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Bloomberg is running an extremely effective single-issue campaign. His run is incontrovertible proof we should tax the bejeesus out of the ultra rich.
No...wait....then I'll lose all that trickle down money!
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Old 7th December 2019, 04:00 PM   #3129
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Booker is using this for the same reason you are; it fits his agenda. It gives him something to criticize a political opponent for. Claiming that someone is articulate is always a dog whistle for racism is ridiculous. Booker IS articulate. Obama IS articulate. I voted twice for Obama and two of the things I admired most about him were his intelligence and the way he could express himself with so much class. Saying so is not racist unless one means it to be so and I seriously doubt Bloomberg meant it as such. Sometimes a banana is just a banana and, in this case, it was just a damn banana.

You lied about what Bloomberg said; he never said "for a black person". That was all you.

You must not be aware of the left-wing's new rules.

It matters not what Michael Bloomberg meant when he said what he said. All that matters is a historically oppressed minority perceived the words as racism, therefore they are racist.

Now, enough with your white supremacy apologetics and just admit that Michael Bloomberg is a racist.
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Old 7th December 2019, 04:09 PM   #3130
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
You must not be aware of the left-wing's new rules.

It matters not what Michael Bloomberg meant when he said what he said. All that matters is a historically oppressed minority perceived the words as racism, therefore they are racist.

Now, enough with your white supremacy apologetics and just admit that Michael Bloomberg is a racist.
After reading the above, luchog's post makes even more sense:

Quote:
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
This is why I have so many of the conservatrolls and contrarians here on ignore; and why it annoys the crap out of me to see how many people continue to still engage with them, drowning so many potentially useful discussions in noise and making the overwhelming majority of this forum little more than a sounding board for reactionaries.

Unfortunately, too many people on the left are far too eager to let the right drive the conversation and set the tone. And public debate is inherently allowing them to drive the conversation and set the tone.
Buh-bye!
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Old 7th December 2019, 04:16 PM   #3131
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
You must not be aware of the left-wing's new rules.
The left wing's rules? You're telling us what those are?

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Old 7th December 2019, 04:17 PM   #3132
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
The point that many descendants of slaves may also be the descendants of slave-owners due to rape did not occur to me at the time, because it is not the case with either Harris or Obama (at least not as far as I know).
Where do you think African-American people born in 19th century Jamaica originally came from and on what sort of ships?
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Old 7th December 2019, 04:34 PM   #3133
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
Cory Booker disagrees.




It's time to stop defending an old, white billionaire and his use of racist dog whistle language just because he's a Democrat. You're part of the problem.
Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
You must not be aware of the left-wing's new rules.

It matters not what Michael Bloomberg meant when he said what he said. All that matters is a historically oppressed minority perceived the words as racism, therefore they are racist.

Now, enough with your white supremacy apologetics and just admit that Michael Bloomberg is a racist.
You are trying to do two contradictory things at once:

You want to denounce “the new rules” of seeing offensive speech everywhere and whine because your opponents are not conforming to the stereotype that you denounce.

The obvious conclusion is your faux outrage is faux. Especially when you are more than likely to enthusiastically line up to vote for the racist’s choice for President.
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Old 7th December 2019, 10:15 PM   #3134
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


And you support Trump?
I don't mind saying that was a slam-dunk.
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Old 7th December 2019, 10:19 PM   #3135
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Where do you think African-American people born in 19th century Jamaica originally came from and on what sort of ships?
African-Americans in 19th century Jamaica? Are you sure? Sort of missing the American part, right?

I'll admit that I don't know a lot about the topic, though. Are all blacks in North and South America either descended from slaves or more recent immigrants?
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Old 8th December 2019, 02:22 AM   #3136
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Wow. Warren actually called out another candidate's actions specifically. Specifically, she called on Buttigieg to stop with the private closed door fundraisers - to be transparent about what's being said and where money's coming from. To be clear, this didn't sound like an actual attack on Buttigieg so much as a specific application of her more general call for transparency that's pretty much required for the anti-corruption efforts that are central to what she's been pushing for.
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Old 8th December 2019, 02:24 AM   #3137
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Double post.
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Old 8th December 2019, 08:30 AM   #3138
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Here's the first paragraph from a WaPo article:
Quote:
After two weeks in the presidential race, Mike Bloomberg now employs one of the largest campaign staff rosters, has spent more money on ads than all the top-polling Democrats combined and is simultaneously building out ground operations in 27 states.
I find those stats quite amazing.
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Old 8th December 2019, 08:33 AM   #3139
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Dup.

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Old 8th December 2019, 09:37 AM   #3140
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Buh-bye!
Instead of bye-bye, how about see you later? Later on after Democratic primary voters kick all their at-risk candidates to the curb and nominate an old, rich white person.
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Old 8th December 2019, 09:42 AM   #3141
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
You are trying to do two contradictory things at once:

You want to denounce “the new rules” of seeing offensive speech everywhere and whine because your opponents are not conforming to the stereotype that you denounce. playing by the rules they created and forced upon their ideological opponents.
I corrected your obvious error.
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Old 8th December 2019, 09:46 AM   #3142
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Here's the first paragraph from a WaPo article:

I find those stats quite amazing.
I guess the interesting question for candidates like Bloomberg and Warren is: Do we like Big Money candidates because they can fund their campaign out of their own pockets, without owing favors to anyone? Or do we not like Big Money candidates because we assume you can't amass big money without a certain amount of corruption and exploitation?
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Old 8th December 2019, 09:46 AM   #3143
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
Instead of bye-bye, how about see you later? Later on after Democratic primary voters kick all their at-risk candidates to the curb and nominate an old, rich white person.
The Dems sent a black person to the white house not so long ago, and meanwhile Dear Leader (an old, vastly less rich white person, a loser) doesn't use a dog whistle -- he uses a siren.

In short, spare me the sanctimony.
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Old 8th December 2019, 12:08 PM   #3144
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
More accurately, not gain. Warren's tax would be less than inflation, so the big bag of money wouldn't be shrinking, just not growing by itself as fast as he would like it to.
Inflation isn't a "gain"! If your wealth grows 2% while inglation is 3%, you have lost wealth over the year.

I'd like to see a discussion of a wealth tax rate that is a fraction of the difference between inflation and the S&P500 growth. Say 0.5*(S&P500-inflation), capped between 0% and 5%.
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Old 8th December 2019, 12:54 PM   #3145
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Here's the first paragraph from a WaPo article:

I find those stats quite amazing.
Amazing but not surprising considering the vast amount of his own personal wealth he's put into his campaign since announcing.
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Old 8th December 2019, 01:20 PM   #3146
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Amazing but not surprising considering the vast amount of his own personal wealth he's put into his campaign since announcing.
Yeah... I was just about to point that out, too. I'm struggling to see the significance of a billionaire being able to pay for a bunch of ads and staff. It's not like all of that was accomplished as the result of a grassroots effort. All I see in that article is a very wealthy man trying to buy his way into the race.

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Old 8th December 2019, 02:55 PM   #3147
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I guess the interesting question for candidates like Bloomberg and Warren is: Do we like Big Money candidates because they can fund their campaign out of their own pockets, without owing favors to anyone? Or do we not like Big Money candidates because we assume you can't amass big money without a certain amount of corruption and exploitation?
Mmm. The first is a potential positive, for the rare case that they actually do fund their campaign out of their own pocket. Trump certainly didn't, despite his claims of being a billionaire. I haven't followed Steyer or Bloomberg well enough to comment on either there, though. The second is not quite true. Corruption and exploitation is not necessarily the case when it comes to ways to make big money in today's world - it's just usually the case.

For me, neither of those is a most important concern, though. The increasingly negative effects on society (and even, to a lesser extent, upon the very rich themselves) that come hand in hand with a far, far too large wealth gap is a nasty problem, though, and a problem that tends to actively work to chop away at the very foundations of a working democracy. That a billionaire is almost certain to not consider it to actually be a problem and to actively work to make it even worse is more of a problem.

Going further, though, there's still the old saying that power corrupts and that absolute power corrupts absolutely. It's not quite true, of course, but money is a form of power and sufficient power does make giving into dark temptation have virtually no real consequences. As a result of that, at last check, the richer a person is, the worse their morals and ethics tend to be, especially if they're raised with that power shielding them (like Trump, but not even remotely only him). That's also one of the underlying problems with excessively rich people in power, provided that they don't have extremely firm checks on what they're allowed to do with that power.
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Old 8th December 2019, 03:38 PM   #3148
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Here's the first paragraph from a WaPo article:

I find those stats quite amazing.
The Seattle market is saturated with Bloomberg ads.

I don't want Bloomberg or Biden but Bloomberg has a much better chance of beating Trump if that is our number one priority.
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Old 8th December 2019, 04:12 PM   #3149
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
Instead of bye-bye, how about see you later? Later on after Democratic primary voters kick all their at-risk candidates to the curb and nominate an old, rich white person.

Uhhh....because she's saying bye to you. LOL!
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Old 8th December 2019, 04:15 PM   #3150
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I guess the interesting question for candidates like Bloomberg and Warren is: Do we like Big Money candidates because they can fund their campaign out of their own pockets, without owing favors to anyone? Or do we not like Big Money candidates because we assume you can't amass big money without a certain amount of corruption and exploitation?

Speak for yourself. Those questions don't interest me; they're far too broad. If you're looking for a single one-size-fits-all answer you're bound to be disappointed in this case.
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Old 8th December 2019, 04:22 PM   #3151
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I guess the interesting question for candidates like Bloomberg and Warren is: Do we like Big Money candidates because they can fund their campaign out of their own pockets, without owing favors to anyone? Or do we not like Big Money candidates because we assume you can't amass big money without a certain amount of corruption and exploitation?
Trump killed that nonsense when he claimed he would use his own billions and therefore not be beholden to any donors.

I doubt anyone is going to fall for that crap again.
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Old 8th December 2019, 06:50 PM   #3152
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I guess the interesting question for candidates like Bloomberg and Warren is: Do we like Big Money candidates because they can fund their campaign out of their own pockets, without owing favors to anyone? Or do we not like Big Money candidates because we assume you can't amass big money without a certain amount of corruption and exploitation?
Warren? I'm not a fan, but she is not self-financing, although so far she is shunning the big fundraisers. And her personal wealth is not 1/1000th of that of Bloomberg.
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Old 8th December 2019, 06:55 PM   #3153
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Pardon the interjection but yes, I think this is true. And even though we disagree on, er, just about everything, I appreciate your often sensible comments in this thread. And I don't appreciate the tribal bs you're replying to.
Belated ty. I may be wrong but I strive to be honest.
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Old 8th December 2019, 07:24 PM   #3154
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
It's time to stop defending an old, white billionaire and his use of racist dog whistle language just because he's a Democrat.
But is it yet time to stop defending an old, white billionaire and his use of racist dog whistle language because he's a Republican?
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Old 9th December 2019, 12:01 AM   #3155
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Originally Posted by Beeyon View Post
Inflation isn't a "gain"! If your wealth grows 2% while inglation is 3%, you have lost wealth over the year.

I'd like to see a discussion of a wealth tax rate that is a fraction of the difference between inflation and the S&P500 growth. Say 0.5*(S&P500-inflation), capped between 0% and 5%.
That would usually be more than 2%. But the problem here is twofold. First, one assumes the government wants revenue even in bad S&P years, and second can you seriously see Warren or Sanders tying the tax to the S&P?

The real problem with most of the "wealth" taxes is that they are actually asset taxes. Warren's plan is entirely asset-based. This is not a problem for the Gates and the Buffets and the Bezoses of the world, because their wealth is in stock, where the assets are matched off with liabilities before it comes to them. But individuals who own commercial real estate may run into problems because there the whole idea is to buy with leverage (debt). So say you own a large commercial property worth $100 million in total, with $75 million in debt? You only have $25 million in equity and yet Lizzie Warren takes her axe and says you owe $2 million.
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Old 9th December 2019, 01:55 AM   #3156
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
That would usually be more than 2%. But the problem here is twofold. First, one assumes the government wants revenue even in bad S&P years, and second can you seriously see Warren or Sanders tying the tax to the S&P?

The real problem with most of the "wealth" taxes is that they are actually asset taxes. Warren's plan is entirely asset-based. This is not a problem for the Gates and the Buffets and the Bezoses of the world, because their wealth is in stock, where the assets are matched off with liabilities before it comes to them. But individuals who own commercial real estate may run into problems because there the whole idea is to buy with leverage (debt). So say you own a large commercial property worth $100 million in total, with $75 million in debt? You only have $25 million in equity and yet Lizzie Warren takes her axe and says you owe $2 million.
Correction. $1 million, assuming that debt actually wouldn't be factored in when it comes to any final result, which is not a particularly safe assumption. No wealth tax in effect for the first $50 million. Similarly, you're assuming that the individual directly owns this $100 million in assets to turn over, rather than having that much as part of a company. How many people, exactly, do you think would honestly be affected by that?
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Old 9th December 2019, 05:37 AM   #3157
Belz...
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
Old, white, billionaire Democratic candidate for president, Michael Bloomberg, thinks Cory Booker – who happens to be black – sure is "well spoken" for a black person.

Link


No word as of yet if Bloomberg thinks the other black guy in the race is clean and articulate.
Amazing how Republicans suddenly care about race, sometimes.
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Old 9th December 2019, 06:37 AM   #3158
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Wow. Warren actually called out another candidate's actions specifically. Specifically, she called on Buttigieg to stop with the private closed door fundraisers - to be transparent about what's being said and where money's coming from. To be clear, this didn't sound like an actual attack on Buttigieg so much as a specific application of her more general call for transparency that's pretty much required for the anti-corruption efforts that are central to what she's been pushing for.
Pete gets pretty hostile with reporters asking when there will be transparency around his fundraising events. Pete's position is that he won't be transparent about his fundraising and he won't explain why. He seemed pretty annoyed to be even asked the question.

https://twitter.com/PrettyGoodPhil/s...50790590664705

Bernie and Warren (to a lesser extent) are showing that popular candidates don't have to go whoring themselves out to the rich to fund their campaigns. Hopefully this kind of response is damaging to Pete.
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Old 9th December 2019, 06:57 PM   #3159
dudalb
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
The Dems sent a black person to the white house not so long ago, and meanwhile Dear Leader (an old, vastly less rich white person, a loser) doesn't use a dog whistle -- he uses a siren.

In short, spare me the sanctimony.
And the guy is so painfully obivious about what he is doing.
Yes, there is a lot of hypocrisy in the Democrats.
Yes, there is a lot of mindless spouting of dogma regardless of circumstance. But at least they don't have Party leader who is either a bigot or somebody who makes no hesistation about using bigotry as a political weapon.
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Old 9th December 2019, 07:00 PM   #3160
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The Seattle market is saturated with Bloomberg ads.

I don't want Bloomberg or Biden but Bloomberg has a much better chance of beating Trump if that is our number one priority.
It's sure as hell mine.
In fact, it's my only priority.
And I remain unconvinced that nominating somebody pretty far to the left by US Standards (only ones that matter in this context) is the best way of doing this. I don't believe there is some vast hidden reservoir of "progressives" voter out there waiting for the right candidate to bring them to life.
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