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#681 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,599
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#682 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,881
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As far as I know it is the whole point of that version of the double slit experiment - using light and polarisers - that no measurement or observation has occurred at the slits.
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax" |
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#683 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,950
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#684 |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: BHole
Posts: 935
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I'm saying measurement isn't involved either. What are you guys smoking?
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#685 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,599
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Yes. Think about that for a moment. You're still trying to figure out what your theory is. You're still making it up as you go along. You're still discovering the concepts and observations of the mainstream theory, and where you have to accommodate them in your own theory.
Your theory is a work in progress, and yet we're still ahead of you. We know more about where you're going than you do. Think about that for a moment. |
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#686 |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: BHole
Posts: 935
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I was being sarcastic
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#687 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,881
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It depends on what version of the experiment you are talking about.
Observation is involved in the version using electrons going through the slits and light to detect them. Observation is involved in the version proposed where the screen allows the measurement of a deflected electron to be detected. But this version, with photons and polarisers, has the photon reach the back panel without having been observed. It just shows that observation, detection or state changes is not what causes the loss of interference between the two paths.
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__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax" |
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#688 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,599
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#689 |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: BHole
Posts: 935
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State Change is all that matters
Waves can die, Particles can't |
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#690 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,950
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It is involved, the measurement takes place at the final panel.
The panel isn't there to change the experiment, but to record it. You're saying that doesn't count because if it doesn't affect whether the particle acts like a wave or not, and therefore it should not be part of the experiment. Only to add it right back because you need to make an observation at the end of the experiment, but claim that it's in a special 'outside the experiment' category. |
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#691 |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: BHole
Posts: 935
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Kay
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#692 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,881
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The difference between having an interference pattern and not having an interference pattern is not measurement, observation or state changes.
That is already well established in physics. I pointed this out to you a few pages back and asked how your theory coped with the fact that the interference pattern is lost even when there is no state change or interaction with the particles that reach the back panel. You didn't respond and now you are coming back saying "observation isn't involved" as though it is supposed to be some big surprise to us. |
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax" |
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#693 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,881
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As I pointed out a few times, in the version of the experiment you are talking about there are no state changes in the particles that reach the back panel.
So it is well established experimentally that state changes don't matter. You will have to adapt your "theory" for this too. |
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax" |
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#694 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,881
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If your theory says that state changes matter then this has already been falsified by the very version of the experiment you keep bringing up.
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax" |
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#695 |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: BHole
Posts: 935
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If it isn't state change, it's something new. I already proved the death is something different from it.
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#696 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,881
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__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax" |
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#697 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 6,299
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I'll even show my math if you like
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Fill the seats of justice with good men; not so absolute in goodness as to forget what human frailty is. -- Thomas Jefferson What region of the earth is not filled with our calamities? -- Virgil |
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#698 |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: BHole
Posts: 935
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The wave didn't collapse going through a polariser, it does by hitting the last panel ..death.
The polariser did do something to the wave that made it through, though. I say state change. That state change tells the realm of all time, all the time that it shouldn't be a wave before releasing it. |
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#699 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,950
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#700 |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: BHole
Posts: 935
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We now know the polarizer did something to the ones that make it through
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#701 |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: BHole
Posts: 935
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Whatever it is, its key to why a particle is physical or a wave while moving.
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#702 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,881
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As I pointed out it would be possible to keep track of electrons hitting the back panel, in which case they would be part of an atom and therefore as wave form. So what happened? Resurrection? Uncollapse?
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__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax" |
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#703 |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: BHole
Posts: 935
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I'm not explaining both of these questions again.
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#704 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,881
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As I said before, all evidence points to the standard hypothesis. That where there is more than one way for an event to happen, if you would have been able to tell which way it happened the probability that it will happen is the sum of the probabilities for each event.
If you would not have been able to tell which way it happened then the probability is derived from the sum of the probability amplitude for each event. We might wonder why it is like that, but all the evidence shows that this is how it is. |
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax" |
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#705 |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: BHole
Posts: 935
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Which way doesn't matter. Only State matters
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#706 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 13,076
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__________________
Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus |
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#707 |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: BHole
Posts: 935
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#708 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 13,076
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__________________
Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus |
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#709 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,599
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#710 |
Banned
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Posts: 935
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#711 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 13,076
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__________________
Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus |
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#712 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,715
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#713 |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: BHole
Posts: 935
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I'm thinking now, a wave would never reach something able to change its state. The unobserved realm would have prevented a wave from being released in the first place and instead went with a physical spacetime particle.
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#714 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,127
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#715 |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: BHole
Posts: 935
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waves in the ocean? funny guy over here
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#716 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,127
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#717 |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: BHole
Posts: 935
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Has this tunneling experiment been done before? You send a wave at a barrier, on the other side the barrier you have polarizer and then a final panel.
If I'm correct, that polarizer should prevent a wave from ever being sent and you won't see any final panel hits. |
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#718 |
Meandering fecklessly
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,424
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__________________
A government is a body of people usually - notably - ungoverned. -Shepard Book |
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#719 |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: BHole
Posts: 935
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Where is Reality Check when you actually want him around?
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#720 |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: BHole
Posts: 935
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I think the only mystery left to solve is how an unobserved quantum wave formulates from just energy/fluctuations? It couldn't have something to do with e=mc^2 could it? We know a matter wave is actually several waves combined. Maybe each frequency represents a different property of the physical structure. We know QFT has excitation's ..but they are in a language we couldn't possibly understand.
Things we know about the Unobserved Realm * all time, all the time * Can't see or touch it * if something is going to change the state of one of its waves ..it prevents it existing in the first place and sends it physical via spacetime * doesn't have a speed limit for light * was around before spacetime * can tunnel if thin enough * infinite frame rate, maybe that's what the unobserved realm is ..infinity * its waves are recycled/reassessed with multiple state change requests * pure information |
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