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Tags dark matter , quantum , quantum mechanics

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Old 13th September 2019, 07:48 AM   #681
theprestige
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
If I didn't just blow everyone's minds right now ..are you even paying attention?
Blow everyone's mind with the revelation that the observer effect doesn't depend on a conscious observer?
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Old 13th September 2019, 07:49 AM   #682
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As far as I know it is the whole point of that version of the double slit experiment - using light and polarisers - that no measurement or observation has occurred at the slits.
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Old 13th September 2019, 07:49 AM   #683
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
oh so you believe observation isn't involved in the double slit all of a sudden. cool

Those stopped particles died.
My condolences.

And what I was saying was that you were wrong in your last post.
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Old 13th September 2019, 07:52 AM   #684
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I'm saying measurement isn't involved either. What are you guys smoking?
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Old 13th September 2019, 07:52 AM   #685
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
oh, you knew my theory before I did, cool
Yes. Think about that for a moment. You're still trying to figure out what your theory is. You're still making it up as you go along. You're still discovering the concepts and observations of the mainstream theory, and where you have to accommodate them in your own theory.

Your theory is a work in progress, and yet we're still ahead of you. We know more about where you're going than you do. Think about that for a moment.
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Old 13th September 2019, 07:54 AM   #686
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I was being sarcastic
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Old 13th September 2019, 07:58 AM   #687
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
oh so you believe observation isn't involved in the double slit all of a sudden. cool
It depends on what version of the experiment you are talking about.

Observation is involved in the version using electrons going through the slits and light to detect them.

Observation is involved in the version proposed where the screen allows the measurement of a deflected electron to be detected.

But this version, with photons and polarisers, has the photon reach the back panel without having been observed.

It just shows that observation, detection or state changes is not what causes the loss of interference between the two paths.

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Those stopped particles died.
You have yet to explain what you mean by particles "living" and "dying".
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Old 13th September 2019, 07:59 AM   #688
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
I was being sarcastic
And yet it's true. You are making it up as you go along. You are trying to retcon and backfill gaps as they're pointed out to you. You are slowly converging on the mainstream theory. And we do actually know more about where you're going than you do.
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Old 13th September 2019, 08:00 AM   #689
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State Change is all that matters

Waves can die, Particles can't
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Old 13th September 2019, 08:01 AM   #690
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
I'm saying measurement isn't involved either. What are you guys smoking?
It is involved, the measurement takes place at the final panel.
The panel isn't there to change the experiment, but to record it. You're saying that doesn't count because if it doesn't affect whether the particle acts like a wave or not, and therefore it should not be part of the experiment. Only to add it right back because you need to make an observation at the end of the experiment, but claim that it's in a special 'outside the experiment' category.
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Old 13th September 2019, 08:08 AM   #691
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Kay
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Old 13th September 2019, 08:09 AM   #692
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
I'm saying measurement isn't involved either.
The difference between having an interference pattern and not having an interference pattern is not measurement, observation or state changes.

That is already well established in physics.

I pointed this out to you a few pages back and asked how your theory coped with the fact that the interference pattern is lost even when there is no state change or interaction with the particles that reach the back panel.

You didn't respond and now you are coming back saying "observation isn't involved" as though it is supposed to be some big surprise to us.
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Old 13th September 2019, 08:11 AM   #693
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
State Change is all that matters
As I pointed out a few times, in the version of the experiment you are talking about there are no state changes in the particles that reach the back panel.

So it is well established experimentally that state changes don't matter.

You will have to adapt your "theory" for this too.
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Old 13th September 2019, 08:12 AM   #694
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If your theory says that state changes matter then this has already been falsified by the very version of the experiment you keep bringing up.
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 13th September 2019, 08:15 AM   #695
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If it isn't state change, it's something new. I already proved the death is something different from it.
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Old 13th September 2019, 08:21 AM   #696
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
If it isn't state change, it's something new.
Or, alternately, it could be the thing that physicists have been saying it is for decades and that the experiments have been confirming for decades.
Quote:
I already proved the death is something different from it.
You haven't even told us what you mean by particles living or dying never mind proved anything about it.
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Old 13th September 2019, 08:26 AM   #697
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I'll even show my math if you like

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
Kay
There was a guy who dated 2 girls, Kay and Edith, but they didn't know about each other. Then one day they met, compared notes, and both broke up with him.

There. I've proved that you can't have your Kay and Edith too.
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Old 13th September 2019, 08:28 AM   #698
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The wave didn't collapse going through a polariser, it does by hitting the last panel ..death.

The polariser did do something to the wave that made it through, though. I say state change.

That state change tells the realm of all time, all the time that it shouldn't be a wave before releasing it.

Last edited by pittsburghjoe; 13th September 2019 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 13th September 2019, 08:33 AM   #699
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
The wave didn't collapse going through the polariser, it did by hitting the last panel ..death.

The polariser did do something to the wave that made it through, though. I say state change.
No it didn't, it just filtered out all the other waves that had a different orientation. It's not something that makes a wave just spring I to being
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Old 13th September 2019, 08:37 AM   #700
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We now know the polarizer did something to the ones that make it through
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Old 13th September 2019, 08:45 AM   #701
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Whatever it is, its key to why a particle is physical or a wave while moving.
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Old 13th September 2019, 08:46 AM   #702
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
The wave didn't collapse going through a polariser, it does by hitting the last panel ..death.
As I pointed out it would be possible to keep track of electrons hitting the back panel, in which case they would be part of an atom and therefore as wave form. So what happened? Resurrection? Uncollapse?

Quote:
The polariser did do something to the wave that made it through, though. I say state change.
And, as I pointed out before, you could rotate one of the polarisers 90 degrees and then get the interference pattern back. The state of the wave is changed with the polarisers in this position too.
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Old 13th September 2019, 08:47 AM   #703
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I'm not explaining both of these questions again.
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Old 13th September 2019, 08:51 AM   #704
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As I said before, all evidence points to the standard hypothesis. That where there is more than one way for an event to happen, if you would have been able to tell which way it happened the probability that it will happen is the sum of the probabilities for each event.

If you would not have been able to tell which way it happened then the probability is derived from the sum of the probability amplitude for each event.

We might wonder why it is like that, but all the evidence shows that this is how it is.
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Old 13th September 2019, 08:52 AM   #705
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Which way doesn't matter. Only State matters
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Old 13th September 2019, 09:04 AM   #706
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
Oh, you are asking me to dumb it down for you. Let me get right on that.
Your "theory" is so far down the scale you'd need to raise the stakes to get to "dumb."
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Old 13th September 2019, 09:22 AM   #707
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
The difference between having an interference pattern and not having an interference pattern is not measurement, observation or state changes.

That is already well established in physics.

I pointed this out to you a few pages back and asked how your theory coped with the fact that the interference pattern is lost even when there is no state change or interaction with the particles that reach the back panel.

You didn't respond and now you are coming back saying "observation isn't involved" as though it is supposed to be some big surprise to us.
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
As I pointed out a few times, in the version of the experiment you are talking about there are no state changes in the particles that reach the back panel.

So it is well established experimentally that state changes don't matter.

You will have to adapt your "theory" for this too.

what the hell are you talking about?
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Old 13th September 2019, 09:27 AM   #708
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
what the hell are you talking about?
Science that is above your head.
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Old 13th September 2019, 09:43 AM   #709
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
what the hell are you talking about?
Like I said, we know more about your theory than you do.
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Old 13th September 2019, 09:44 AM   #710
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
coped with the fact that the interference pattern is lost even when there is no state change or interaction with the particles that reach the back panel.
What experiment does this?

Last edited by pittsburghjoe; 13th September 2019 at 09:48 AM.
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Old 13th September 2019, 10:29 AM   #711
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
What experiment does this?
One you may have slept through.
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Old 13th September 2019, 10:47 AM   #712
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
oh so you believe observation isn't involved in the double slit all of a sudden. cool

Those stopped particles died.
Deleted

Last edited by Steve001; 13th September 2019 at 10:49 AM.
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Old 13th September 2019, 02:09 PM   #713
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I'm thinking now, a wave would never reach something able to change its state. The unobserved realm would have prevented a wave from being released in the first place and instead went with a physical spacetime particle.
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Old 13th September 2019, 02:18 PM   #714
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
Physical: structure, 3D, more than just information ..real to us.
Ironically, it's waves that have structure and are 3d, not particles.
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Old 13th September 2019, 02:22 PM   #715
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waves in the ocean? funny guy over here
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Old 13th September 2019, 02:28 PM   #716
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
waves in the ocean? funny guy over here
No, waves in the various quantum fields.
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Old 13th September 2019, 02:30 PM   #717
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Has this tunneling experiment been done before? You send a wave at a barrier, on the other side the barrier you have polarizer and then a final panel.

If I'm correct, that polarizer should prevent a wave from ever being sent and you won't see any final panel hits.
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Old 13th September 2019, 02:39 PM   #718
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
Has this tunneling experiment been done before?
Why don't you research it and tell us.


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You send a wave at a barrier, on the other side the barrier you have polarizer and then a final panel. If I'm correct, that polarizer should prevent a wave from ever being sent and you won't see any final panel hits.
Sounds like a great application of a mathematical solution to a mathematical problem!
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Old 13th September 2019, 03:52 PM   #719
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Where is Reality Check when you actually want him around?
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Old 13th September 2019, 04:35 PM   #720
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I think the only mystery left to solve is how an unobserved quantum wave formulates from just energy/fluctuations? It couldn't have something to do with e=mc^2 could it? We know a matter wave is actually several waves combined. Maybe each frequency represents a different property of the physical structure. We know QFT has excitation's ..but they are in a language we couldn't possibly understand.


Things we know about the Unobserved Realm

* all time, all the time
* Can't see or touch it
* if something is going to change the state of one of its waves ..it prevents it existing in the first place and sends it physical via spacetime

* doesn't have a speed limit for light
* was around before spacetime
* can tunnel if thin enough
* infinite frame rate, maybe that's what the unobserved realm is ..infinity
* its waves are recycled/reassessed with multiple state change requests
* pure information
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