[Merged] I killed Duality and Uncertainty for a Theory of Everything - Page 18

theprestige · 13th September 2019, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe

If I didn't just blow everyone's minds right now ..are you even paying attention?

Blow everyone's mind with the revelation that the observer effect doesn't depend on a conscious observer?

Robin · 13th September 2019, 07:49 AM

As far as I know it is the whole point of that version of the double slit experiment - using light and polarisers - that no measurement or observation has occurred at the slits.

Porpoise of Life · 13th September 2019, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe

oh so you believe observation isn't involved in the double slit all of a sudden. cool

Those stopped particles died.

My condolences.

And what I was saying was that you were wrong in your last post.

pittsburghjoe · 13th September 2019, 07:52 AM

I'm saying measurement isn't involved either. What are you guys smoking?

theprestige · 13th September 2019, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe

oh, you knew my theory before I did, cool

Yes. Think about that for a moment. You're still trying to figure out what your theory is. You're still making it up as you go along. You're still discovering the concepts and observations of the mainstream theory, and where you have to accommodate them in your own theory.

Your theory is a work in progress, and yet we're still ahead of you. We know more about where you're going than you do. Think about that for a moment.

pittsburghjoe · 13th September 2019, 07:54 AM

I was being sarcastic

Robin · 13th September 2019, 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe

oh so you believe observation isn't involved in the double slit all of a sudden. cool

It depends on what version of the experiment you are talking about.

Observation is involved in the version using electrons going through the slits and light to detect them.

Observation is involved in the version proposed where the screen allows the measurement of a deflected electron to be detected.

But this version, with photons and polarisers, has the photon reach the back panel without having been observed.

It just shows that observation, detection or state changes is not what causes the loss of interference between the two paths.

Quote:

Those stopped particles died.

You have yet to explain what you mean by particles "living" and "dying".

theprestige · 13th September 2019, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe

I was being sarcastic

And yet it's true. You are making it up as you go along. You are trying to retcon and backfill gaps as they're pointed out to you. You are slowly converging on the mainstream theory. And we do actually know more about where you're going than you do.

pittsburghjoe · 13th September 2019, 08:00 AM

State Change is all that matters

Waves can die, Particles can't

Porpoise of Life · 13th September 2019, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe

I'm saying measurement isn't involved either. What are you guys smoking?

It is involved, the measurement takes place at the final panel.
The panel isn't there to change the experiment, but to record it. You're saying that doesn't count because if it doesn't affect whether the particle acts like a wave or not, and therefore it should not be part of the experiment. Only to add it right back because you need to make an observation at the end of the experiment, but claim that it's in a special 'outside the experiment' category.

pittsburghjoe · 13th September 2019, 08:08 AM

Kay

Robin · 13th September 2019, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe

I'm saying measurement isn't involved either.

The difference between having an interference pattern and not having an interference pattern is not measurement, observation or state changes.

That is already well established in physics.

I pointed this out to you a few pages back and asked how your theory coped with the fact that the interference pattern is lost even when there is no state change or interaction with the particles that reach the back panel.

You didn't respond and now you are coming back saying "observation isn't involved" as though it is supposed to be some big surprise to us.

Robin · 13th September 2019, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe

State Change is all that matters

As I pointed out a few times, in the version of the experiment you are talking about there are no state changes in the particles that reach the back panel.

So it is well established experimentally that state changes don't matter.

You will have to adapt your "theory" for this too.

Robin · 13th September 2019, 08:12 AM

If your theory says that state changes matter then this has already been falsified by the very version of the experiment you keep bringing up.

pittsburghjoe · 13th September 2019, 08:15 AM

If it isn't state change, it's something new. I already proved the death is something different from it.

Robin · 13th September 2019, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe

If it isn't state change, it's something new.

Or, alternately, it could be the thing that physicists have been saying it is for decades and that the experiments have been confirming for decades.

Quote:

I already proved the death is something different from it.

You haven't even told us what you mean by particles living or dying never mind proved anything about it.

sackett · 13th September 2019, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe

Kay

There was a guy who dated 2 girls, Kay and Edith, but they didn't know about each other. Then one day they met, compared notes, and both broke up with him.

There. I've proved that you can't have your Kay and Edith too.

pittsburghjoe · 13th September 2019, 08:28 AM

The wave didn't collapse going through a polariser, it does by hitting the last panel ..death.

The polariser did do something to the wave that made it through, though. I say state change.

That state change tells the realm of all time, all the time that it shouldn't be a wave before releasing it.

Porpoise of Life · 13th September 2019, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe

The wave didn't collapse going through the polariser, it did by hitting the last panel ..death.

The polariser did do something to the wave that made it through, though. I say state change.

No it didn't, it just filtered out all the other waves that had a different orientation. It's not something that makes a wave just spring I to being

pittsburghjoe · 13th September 2019, 08:37 AM

We now know the polarizer did something to the ones that make it through

pittsburghjoe · 13th September 2019, 08:45 AM

Whatever it is, its key to why a particle is physical or a wave while moving.

Robin · 13th September 2019, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe

The wave didn't collapse going through a polariser, it does by hitting the last panel ..death.

As I pointed out it would be possible to keep track of electrons hitting the back panel, in which case they would be part of an atom and therefore as wave form. So what happened? Resurrection? Uncollapse?

Quote:

The polariser did do something to the wave that made it through, though. I say state change.

And, as I pointed out before, you could rotate one of the polarisers 90 degrees and then get the interference pattern back. The state of the wave is changed with the polarisers in this position too.

pittsburghjoe · 13th September 2019, 08:47 AM

I'm not explaining both of these questions again.

Robin · 13th September 2019, 08:51 AM

As I said before, all evidence points to the standard hypothesis. That where there is more than one way for an event to happen, if you would have been able to tell which way it happened the probability that it will happen is the sum of the probabilities for each event.

If you would not have been able to tell which way it happened then the probability is derived from the sum of the probability amplitude for each event.

We might wonder why it is like that, but all the evidence shows that this is how it is.

pittsburghjoe · 13th September 2019, 08:52 AM

Which way doesn't matter. Only State matters

BStrong · 13th September 2019, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe

Oh, you are asking me to dumb it down for you. Let me get right on that.

Your "theory" is so far down the scale you'd need to raise the stakes to get to "dumb."

pittsburghjoe · 13th September 2019, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by Robin

The difference between having an interference pattern and not having an interference pattern is not measurement, observation or state changes.

That is already well established in physics.

I pointed this out to you a few pages back and asked how your theory coped with the fact that the interference pattern is lost even when there is no state change or interaction with the particles that reach the back panel.

You didn't respond and now you are coming back saying "observation isn't involved" as though it is supposed to be some big surprise to us.

Originally Posted by Robin

As I pointed out a few times, in the version of the experiment you are talking about there are no state changes in the particles that reach the back panel.

So it is well established experimentally that state changes don't matter.

You will have to adapt your "theory" for this too.

what the hell are you talking about?

BStrong · 13th September 2019, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe

what the hell are you talking about?

Science that is above your head.

theprestige · 13th September 2019, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe

what the hell are you talking about?

Like I said, we know more about your theory than you do.

pittsburghjoe · 13th September 2019, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by Robin

coped with the fact that the interference pattern is lost even when there is no state change or interaction with the particles that reach the back panel.

What experiment does this?

BStrong · 13th September 2019, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe

What experiment does this?

One you may have slept through.

Steve001 · 13th September 2019, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe

oh so you believe observation isn't involved in the double slit all of a sudden. cool

Those stopped particles died.

Deleted

pittsburghjoe · 13th September 2019, 02:09 PM

I'm thinking now, a wave would never reach something able to change its state. The unobserved realm would have prevented a wave from being released in the first place and instead went with a physical spacetime particle.

phunk · 13th September 2019, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe

Physical: structure, 3D, more than just information ..real to us.

Ironically, it's waves that have structure and are 3d, not particles.

pittsburghjoe · 13th September 2019, 02:22 PM

waves in the ocean? funny guy over here

phunk · 13th September 2019, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe

waves in the ocean? funny guy over here

No, waves in the various quantum fields.

pittsburghjoe · 13th September 2019, 02:30 PM

Has this tunneling experiment been done before? You send a wave at a barrier, on the other side the barrier you have polarizer and then a final panel.

If I'm correct, that polarizer should prevent a wave from ever being sent and you won't see any final panel hits.

The Norseman · 13th September 2019, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe

Has this tunneling experiment been done before?

Why don't you research it and tell us.

Quote:

You send a wave at a barrier, on the other side the barrier you have polarizer and then a final panel. If I'm correct, that polarizer should prevent a wave from ever being sent and you won't see any final panel hits.

Sounds like a great application of a mathematical solution to a mathematical problem!

pittsburghjoe · 13th September 2019, 03:52 PM

Where is Reality Check when you actually want him around?

pittsburghjoe · 13th September 2019, 04:35 PM

I think the only mystery left to solve is how an unobserved quantum wave formulates from just energy/fluctuations? It couldn't have something to do with e=mc^2 could it? We know a matter wave is actually several waves combined. Maybe each frequency represents a different property of the physical structure. We know QFT has excitation's ..but they are in a language we couldn't possibly understand.

Things we know about the Unobserved Realm
* all time, all the time
* Can't see or touch it
* if something is going to change the state of one of its waves ..it prevents it existing in the first place and sends it physical via spacetime

* doesn't have a speed limit for light
* was around before spacetime
* can tunnel if thin enough
* infinite frame rate, maybe that's what the unobserved realm is ..infinity
* its waves are recycled/reassessed with multiple state change requests
* pure information

13th September 2019, 07:49 AM	#682
Robin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 12,881	As far as I know it is the whole point of that version of the double slit experiment - using light and polarisers - that no measurement or observation has occurred at the slits.
	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

13th September 2019, 07:58 AM	#687
Robin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 12,881	Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe oh so you believe observation isn't involved in the double slit all of a sudden. cool It depends on what version of the experiment you are talking about. Observation is involved in the version using electrons going through the slits and light to detect them. Observation is involved in the version proposed where the screen allows the measurement of a deflected electron to be detected. But this version, with photons and polarisers, has the photon reach the back panel without having been observed. It just shows that observation, detection or state changes is not what causes the loss of interference between the two paths. Quote: Those stopped particles died. You have yet to explain what you mean by particles "living" and "dying".
	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

13th September 2019, 08:09 AM	#692
Robin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 12,881	Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe I'm saying measurement isn't involved either. The difference between having an interference pattern and not having an interference pattern is not measurement, observation or state changes. That is already well established in physics. I pointed this out to you a few pages back and asked how your theory coped with the fact that the interference pattern is lost even when there is no state change or interaction with the particles that reach the back panel. You didn't respond and now you are coming back saying "observation isn't involved" as though it is supposed to be some big surprise to us.
	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

13th September 2019, 08:11 AM	#693
Robin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 12,881	Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe State Change is all that matters As I pointed out a few times, in the version of the experiment you are talking about there are no state changes in the particles that reach the back panel. So it is well established experimentally that state changes don't matter. You will have to adapt your "theory" for this too.
	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

13th September 2019, 08:12 AM	#694
Robin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 12,881	If your theory says that state changes matter then this has already been falsified by the very version of the experiment you keep bringing up.
	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

13th September 2019, 07:48 AM	#681
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 48,599	Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe If I didn't just blow everyone's minds right now ..are you even paying attention? Blow everyone's mind with the revelation that the observer effect doesn't depend on a conscious observer?

13th September 2019, 07:49 AM	#683
Porpoise of Life Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 4,950	Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe oh so you believe observation isn't involved in the double slit all of a sudden. cool Those stopped particles died. My condolences. And what I was saying was that you were wrong in your last post.

13th September 2019, 07:52 AM	#684
pittsburghjoe Banned Join Date: Aug 2019 Location: BHole Posts: 935	I'm saying measurement isn't involved either. What are you guys smoking?

13th September 2019, 07:52 AM	#685
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 48,599	Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe oh, you knew my theory before I did, cool Yes. Think about that for a moment. You're still trying to figure out what your theory is. You're still making it up as you go along. You're still discovering the concepts and observations of the mainstream theory, and where you have to accommodate them in your own theory. Your theory is a work in progress, and yet we're still ahead of you. We know more about where you're going than you do. Think about that for a moment.

13th September 2019, 07:54 AM	#686
pittsburghjoe Banned Join Date: Aug 2019 Location: BHole Posts: 935	I was being sarcastic

13th September 2019, 07:59 AM	#688
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 48,599	Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe I was being sarcastic And yet it's true. You are making it up as you go along. You are trying to retcon and backfill gaps as they're pointed out to you. You are slowly converging on the mainstream theory. And we do actually know more about where you're going than you do.

13th September 2019, 08:00 AM	#689
pittsburghjoe Banned Join Date: Aug 2019 Location: BHole Posts: 935	State Change is all that matters Waves can die, Particles can't

13th September 2019, 08:01 AM	#690
Porpoise of Life Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 4,950	Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe I'm saying measurement isn't involved either. What are you guys smoking? It is involved, the measurement takes place at the final panel. The panel isn't there to change the experiment, but to record it. You're saying that doesn't count because if it doesn't affect whether the particle acts like a wave or not, and therefore it should not be part of the experiment. Only to add it right back because you need to make an observation at the end of the experiment, but claim that it's in a special 'outside the experiment' category.

13th September 2019, 08:08 AM	#691
pittsburghjoe Banned Join Date: Aug 2019 Location: BHole Posts: 935	Kay

13th September 2019, 08:15 AM	#695
pittsburghjoe Banned Join Date: Aug 2019 Location: BHole Posts: 935	If it isn't state change, it's something new. I already proved the death is something different from it.

13th September 2019, 08:21 AM	#696
Robin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 12,881	Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe If it isn't state change, it's something new. Or, alternately, it could be the thing that physicists have been saying it is for decades and that the experiments have been confirming for decades. Quote: I already proved the death is something different from it. You haven't even told us what you mean by particles living or dying never mind proved anything about it.
	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

13th September 2019, 08:26 AM	#697
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 6,299	I'll even show my math if you like Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe Kay There was a guy who dated 2 girls, Kay and Edith, but they didn't know about each other. Then one day they met, compared notes, and both broke up with him. There. I've proved that you can't have your Kay and Edith too.
	__________________ Fill the seats of justice with good men; not so absolute in goodness as to forget what human frailty is. -- Thomas Jefferson What region of the earth is not filled with our calamities? -- Virgil

13th September 2019, 08:28 AM	#698
pittsburghjoe Banned Join Date: Aug 2019 Location: BHole Posts: 935	The wave didn't collapse going through a polariser, it does by hitting the last panel ..death. The polariser did do something to the wave that made it through, though. I say state change. That state change tells the realm of all time, all the time that it shouldn't be a wave before releasing it.
	Last edited by pittsburghjoe; 13th September 2019 at 08:33 AM.

13th September 2019, 08:33 AM	#699
Porpoise of Life Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 4,950	Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe The wave didn't collapse going through the polariser, it did by hitting the last panel ..death. The polariser did do something to the wave that made it through, though. I say state change. No it didn't, it just filtered out all the other waves that had a different orientation. It's not something that makes a wave just spring I to being

13th September 2019, 08:37 AM	#700
pittsburghjoe Banned Join Date: Aug 2019 Location: BHole Posts: 935	We now know the polarizer did something to the ones that make it through

13th September 2019, 08:45 AM	#701
pittsburghjoe Banned Join Date: Aug 2019 Location: BHole Posts: 935	Whatever it is, its key to why a particle is physical or a wave while moving.

13th September 2019, 08:46 AM	#702
Robin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 12,881	Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe The wave didn't collapse going through a polariser, it does by hitting the last panel ..death. As I pointed out it would be possible to keep track of electrons hitting the back panel, in which case they would be part of an atom and therefore as wave form. So what happened? Resurrection? Uncollapse? Quote: The polariser did do something to the wave that made it through, though. I say state change. And, as I pointed out before, you could rotate one of the polarisers 90 degrees and then get the interference pattern back. The state of the wave is changed with the polarisers in this position too.
	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

13th September 2019, 08:47 AM	#703
pittsburghjoe Banned Join Date: Aug 2019 Location: BHole Posts: 935	I'm not explaining both of these questions again.

13th September 2019, 08:51 AM	#704
Robin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 12,881	As I said before, all evidence points to the standard hypothesis. That where there is more than one way for an event to happen, if you would have been able to tell which way it happened the probability that it will happen is the sum of the probabilities for each event. If you would not have been able to tell which way it happened then the probability is derived from the sum of the probability amplitude for each event. We might wonder why it is like that, but all the evidence shows that this is how it is.
	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

13th September 2019, 08:52 AM	#705
pittsburghjoe Banned Join Date: Aug 2019 Location: BHole Posts: 935	Which way doesn't matter. Only State matters

13th September 2019, 09:04 AM	#706
BStrong Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: San Francisco Posts: 13,076	Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe Oh, you are asking me to dumb it down for you. Let me get right on that. Your "theory" is so far down the scale you'd need to raise the stakes to get to "dumb."
	__________________ Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus

13th September 2019, 09:22 AM	#707
pittsburghjoe Banned Join Date: Aug 2019 Location: BHole Posts: 935	Originally Posted by Robin The difference between having an interference pattern and not having an interference pattern is not measurement, observation or state changes. That is already well established in physics. I pointed this out to you a few pages back and asked how your theory coped with the fact that the interference pattern is lost even when there is no state change or interaction with the particles that reach the back panel. You didn't respond and now you are coming back saying "observation isn't involved" as though it is supposed to be some big surprise to us. Originally Posted by Robin As I pointed out a few times, in the version of the experiment you are talking about there are no state changes in the particles that reach the back panel. So it is well established experimentally that state changes don't matter. You will have to adapt your "theory" for this too. what the hell are you talking about?

13th September 2019, 09:27 AM	#708
BStrong Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: San Francisco Posts: 13,076	Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe what the hell are you talking about? Science that is above your head.
	__________________ Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus

13th September 2019, 09:43 AM	#709
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 48,599	Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe what the hell are you talking about? Like I said, we know more about your theory than you do.

13th September 2019, 09:44 AM	#710
pittsburghjoe Banned Join Date: Aug 2019 Location: BHole Posts: 935	Originally Posted by Robin coped with the fact that the interference pattern is lost even when there is no state change or interaction with the particles that reach the back panel. What experiment does this?
	Last edited by pittsburghjoe; 13th September 2019 at 09:48 AM.

13th September 2019, 10:29 AM	#711
BStrong Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: San Francisco Posts: 13,076	Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe What experiment does this? One you may have slept through.
	__________________ Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus

13th September 2019, 10:47 AM	#712
Steve001 Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,715	Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe oh so you believe observation isn't involved in the double slit all of a sudden. cool Those stopped particles died. Deleted
	Last edited by Steve001; 13th September 2019 at 10:49 AM.

13th September 2019, 02:09 PM	#713
pittsburghjoe Banned Join Date: Aug 2019 Location: BHole Posts: 935	I'm thinking now, a wave would never reach something able to change its state. The unobserved realm would have prevented a wave from being released in the first place and instead went with a physical spacetime particle.

13th September 2019, 02:18 PM	#714
phunk Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,127	Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe Physical: structure, 3D, more than just information ..real to us. Ironically, it's waves that have structure and are 3d, not particles.
phunk Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,127

13th September 2019, 02:22 PM	#715
pittsburghjoe Banned Join Date: Aug 2019 Location: BHole Posts: 935	waves in the ocean? funny guy over here