Did Epstein run a World Satanic Ring?

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

Many are persuaded that the highlighted part is likely substantially true.

This thread is about the non-highlighted part and the paucity of supporting evidence, which fails to keep pace with your imagination as it gallops over the horizon.

You just don't get it. Do you really believe these people did the posh person equivalent of hiring a motel room or massage parlour for bog standard common or garden variety prostitution?

Think about it it. What was the need for remote islands, ranches in semi-arrid desert and 42 roomed-mansions?

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by bruto

You seem to have missed my point. You have said more or less that all occult beliefs are functionally equivalent to "satanism" because satanism is an occult belief and shares much with many. If that was not what you meant when you said it, you said it badly. You then introduced the idea of Muslims characterizing all non-Muslims as "infidels" as an example.

I point out that although all non Muslims are infidels to them, this does not mean that all infidels are the same. The Muslims call us all infidels but they do not call us all Christians. That would be a large category mistake which they do not, as far as I know, make. You may consider "Satanism" a generic term for occult beliefs, but most would not. There are, for one thing, a fair number of deeply occult beliefs (or cults if you prefer) which espouse Christian ideas and oppose Satan as much as any mainstream Christian religions.

You can go round and round and try to justify sloppy categorization and a poor choice of words, but like it or not, dabbling in the occult does not make a person a satanist, and I have yet to see any evidence that Epstein was anything but a deviant, power hungry showman with bad taste.

And as an aside, not everyone has their children christened, and the choice is not binary.

Name me one.

[Porpoise of Life]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Think about it it. What was the need for remote islands, ranches in semi-arrid desert and 42 roomed-mansions?

Because they're filthy rich.

Now, what would the satanic need for a private island and mansion be? And where do I draw a pentagram to get me enough beelzebucks to buy my own island?

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Belz...

Associating gods across different mythologies is fun but Ba'al is not an Egyptian god, regardless of how many cow deities you can find.



What is that supposed to correct?

You said that the bible spoke of Ba'al as a clear reference to egyptian gods. That is incorrect, isn't it?

Not it is not. Ba'al was worshipped all over the Levant. Canaan was a part of the Middle Egyptian Dynasty about 1000BC.

Quote:

From Canaan, worship of Baʿal spread to Egypt by the Middle Kingdom and throughout the Mediterranean following the waves of Phoenician colonization in the early 1st millennium bce.[22] He was described with diverse epithets and, before Ugarit was rediscovered, it was supposed that these referred to distinct local gods. However, as explained by Day, the texts at Ugarit revealed that they were considered "local manifestations of this particular deity, analogous to the local manifestations of the Virgin Mary in the Roman Catholic Church".[

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal


I was correct when I said the Bible generically calls all of the various Egyptian/Levant dieties 'Ba'al'. Satan is rarely named as 'satan' apart from Job and Revelation, Job being more a work of philosophy and some doubting whether Revelation should be included in the New Testament.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life

Because they're filthy rich.

Now, what would the satanic need for a private island and mansion be? And where do I draw a pentagram to get me enough beelzebucks to buy my own island?

Middle-aged/elderly man wants sex orgies with young teenage girls. So where would he find that then even if he was filthy rich?

My close relatives have an island. It's not difficult. You wait for one to come up for sale.

How to get round it? You design a secret, exclusive fraternity and throw in a few cult themes so that people feel loyal and loathe to betray it.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by Vixen

You just don't get it.

I'm pretty sure everybody gets it.

Quote:

Name me one.

You must be joking.

Quote:

Not it is not. Ba'al was worshipped all over the Levant. Canaan was a part of the Middle Egyptian Dynasty about 1000BC.

Now you're playing word games. The Egyptians did not worship Ba'al. It is not an Egyptian deity.

Stop trying to find a way to be correct when you're not.

Quote:

I was correct when I said the Bible generically calls all of the various Egyptian/Levant dieties 'Ba'al'.

But that's not what you said. You said the bible 'clearly' referenced Egyptian mythology with the mention of Ba'al. Christians call ALL non-Christian gods by some demonic apellation or another. It's not a clear reference to any specific god or mythology.

Again, you are reaching.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Middle-aged/elderly man wants sex orgies with young teenage girls. So where would he find that then even if he was filthy rich?

My close relatives have an island. It's not difficult. You wait for one to come up for sale.

How to get round it? You design a secret, exclusive fraternity and throw in a few cult themes so that people feel loyal and loathe to betray it.

What are you babbling about? Get round to what? What you write about is, once again, nothing but speculation.

[Porpoise of Life]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Middle-aged/elderly man wants sex orgies with young teenage girls. So where would he find that then even if he was filthy rich?

Apparently, hiring folks to do some good old human trafficking. A more practical way to get slaves than sacrificing a goat and hoping for the best.

Originally Posted by Vixen

My close relatives have an island. It's not difficult. You wait for one to come up for sale.

By your logic, that's evidence of satanism...

Originally Posted by Vixen

How to get round it? You design a secret, exclusive fraternity and throw in a few cult themes so that people feel loyal and loathe to betray it.

Pure speculation. And in stead of providing evidence, you come up with an endless string of unconnected falsehoods and hope we somehow don't notice you're spewing ********?

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by Craig4

And there's a picture proving they were together at the home of an Epstein associate implicated in the human trafficking charge. Andrew had denied meeting her. Andrew met with and stayed with Epstein after his conviction. That there is proof positive that Andrew met the girl at an Epstein associated property and he lied about it indicates a level of consciousness of guilt.

Either that or Andrew just didn't remember her?

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by Vixen

You just don't get it. Do you really believe these people did the posh person equivalent of hiring a motel room or massage parlour for bog standard common or garden variety prostitution?

Think about it it. What was the need for remote islands, ranches in semi-arrid desert and 42 roomed-mansions?

That's an argument from incredulity. I thought you didn't do logical fallacies?

[bruto]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Name me one.

Anthroposophy; Rosicrucianism; Gurdjieff and Ouspensky' "the way;" Swedenborg; Annie Besant's theosophy. That's some of the more or less Christian ones off the top of my head. I'm sure there are others that are not, in some fundamental way, Judaeo-Christian, and thus have no relation to Satan at all. That is, of course, disregarding the opponents who simply call them Satanists because they don't agree or because they are sloppy with their terminology. And of course it depends on how you define occultism or mysticism, or redefine your way out of it. Some people would throw Mormons into the mix too, but there's a fair amount of stuff in it without them.

But in any case, since you said to name only one, I will put forward Anthroposophy as a best example: a philosophy (sort of) that is openly mystical and occult, and quite explicitly Christian, even to the extent of including its own Christian sect.

[Vixen]

Here we have it, confirmed by the SUN:

Quote:

GHISLAINE Maxwell and her paedophile lover Jeffrey Epstein were both Israeli spies who took pictures of powerful men having sex with underage girls to blackmail them, their alleged Mossad handler has sensationally claimed.

The pair allegedly ran a "honey-trap" operation where they would provide young girls to politicians in order to squeeze them for information for the Israelis.

The unsubstantiated claims have been made by Ari Ben-Menashe who claims he is a former Israeli spy.

Ben-Menashe claims that he was the “handler” of Ghislaine's dad Robert Maxwell, who was also a spy, and that it was the former newspaper baron who introduced Epstein and his daughter to the Israeli intelligence agency.

He makes the unverified claims in a new book called "Epstein: Dead Men Tell No Tales".

In a preview of the book, shared with Sun Online, Ben-Menashe says: “Mr Epstein was the simple idiot who was going around providing girls to all kinds of politicians in the United States.

<snip>

Quote:

The new book takes this further and claims Maxwell may have worked for other governments too as as a double or triple agent.

Ben-Menashe claims that despite reports Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell met in the early 90s in New York, they actually met much earlier - through the socialite's father.

He claims that Robert Maxwell introduced Epstein to Mossad and then Ghislaine got involved later.

Files from the British Foreign Office, released in 2003 appear to back the claims Robert Maxwell may have been a spy, with one report describing him as a “thoroughly bad character” who was being “financed by Russia” and another saying his “questionable activities” had been brought to the attention of the Foreign Officer “on several occasions”.

While the Maxwell family have always denied such reports, family friend Laura Goldman says in the book: “My feeling is that he probably was an agent to the Russians, the Israelis, and the British. I believe that Ghislaine continued his work.”

<snip>

Quote:

John Dougan, who served as Deputy Sheriff in Palm Beach, Florida at the time Epstein was in prison for his first slew of child sex offenses, says he was given access to Epstein's case file - including video tapes - in its entirety by Palm Beach Police Detective Joseph Recarey, who later died unexpectedly aged 50.

Dougan managed to copy the tapes, encrypt them and flee to Russia, where he now lives.

Although he has not watched the encrypted files he tells Epstein: Dead Men Tell No Tales that he is certain they contain blackmail material involving wealthy people - and that Prince Andrew was a target.

“Do I think that Epstein was probably put up to getting some wealthy people to sleep with some underage women so those people could be black- mailed by Western intelligence agencies? Absolutely I do,” he said.

MI6 were “concerned that Russia may have obtained kompromat, compromising material, on Prince Andrew,” according to a Times report - although Dougan claims he has given no information to the Russians.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by bruto

Anthroposophy; Rosicrucianism; Gurdjieff and Ouspensky' "the way;" Swedenborg; Annie Besant's theosophy. That's some of the more or less Christian ones off the top of my head. I'm sure there are others that are not, in some fundamental way, Judaeo-Christian, and thus have no relation to Satan at all. That is, of course, disregarding the opponents who simply call them Satanists because they don't agree or because they are sloppy with their terminology. And of course it depends on how you define occultism or mysticism, or redefine your way out of it. Some people would throw Mormons into the mix too, but there's a fair amount of stuff in it without them.

But in any case, since you said to name only one, I will put forward Anthroposophy as a best example: a philosophy (sort of) that is openly mystical and occult, and quite explicitly Christian, even to the extent of including its own Christian sect.

Rosicrucians are not Christian, even though they invented a character called Christian Rosenkreutz. When they refer to Christian values they are referring to their self-referring character. Gurdjieff was a sufi master (Islam). Peter Ouspensky was his pupil and was interested in mysical aspect such as the Fourth Way. I have read all of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky and can confirm they have nothing to do with Christianity. Swedenborg like the Madame Blavatsky Theosopists was eclectic and into flying, ESP and auras, not to mention communicating with the dear departed. A far cry from Christianity.

Re Judaism, there are some who believe the Kabbalah is dangerous mysticism.

I'm guessing the Anthroposophy sect are Gnostics. Would I be right? Just a version of 'Know Thyself' and frowned upon by mainstream Christians as being navel-gazing and 'eastern' when they should be outward looking.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Either that or Andrew just didn't remember her?

Er, the BBC researchers revealed a 5:30 am email Prince Andrew sent Ghislaine Maxwell specifically naming Virginia Roberts. So much for his adamant claim he had zero recollection whatsoever of having ever met the woman.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

That's an argument from incredulity. I thought you didn't do logical fallacies?

Tu quoque.

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Why is it risible? You can claim it is manufactured fear but the fact is, people do buy into it.

As we can clearly see in this thread.

Originally Posted by Vixen

For example, a bunch of schoolgirls play with a ouija board for a laugh. For most of those schoolkids it remains 'laugh', even if something weird happens. Others will rationalise the weird event as someone manipulating the board or the glass. Maybe one of them will sincerely believe something sinister happened. Who are you or I to know which of these groups of people are right? Saying, it's rubbish, doesn't make it so.

I can say it is rubbish because I have studied ouija in depth. There is NOTHING supernatural about it.

Originally Posted by Vixen

There was the case of famous musician. Graham Bond, of the Graham Bond Organisation, precurser to The Cream, who certainly believed in satanism. He was involved in a Black Magic psychic fight with other practitioners and ended up killing himself.

Bwahahaha. "psychic fight". Oh brother.

Originally Posted by Vixen

Now you can sit at your laptop jeering, rubbish! But it wasn't rubbish for this particular individual.

Some people are taken in by such rubbish with harmful results. That is nothing new.

Originally Posted by Vixen

Likewise, Epstein theming his sex parties around satanic symbolism might just be seen as a 'laugh' by some but for others, who knows, they might really have believed they were spiritually protected by being in the sex ring.

One cannot legislate for the gullibility of some people. If they were dumb enough to believe in "spiritual protection" then more fool them. "Spiritual protection" is as useful as a chocolate crash helmet.

Originally Posted by Vixen

Certainly nobody has ever been prosecuted for what is clearly an international sex ring involving prominent figures, apart from a nominal 13-month sentence for procuring a prostitute (note, not 'sex trafficking', which specifies underage girls, a much more serious offence) of which Epstein was given huge amounts of day release which he spent at his office on a Caribbean Island.

False. Epstein was convicted. He was about to be tried again, but he killed himself before that could happen.

[Trebuchet]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Middle-aged/elderly man wants sex orgies with young teenage girls. So where would he find that then even if he was filthy rich?

Southeast Asia, or so I've heard. Look up sex tourism.

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Not it is not. Ba'al was worshipped all over the Levant. Canaan was a part of the Middle Egyptian Dynasty about 1000BC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal


I was correct when I said the Bible generically calls all of the various Egyptian/Levant dieties 'Ba'al'. Satan is rarely named as 'satan' apart from Job and Revelation, Job being more a work of philosophy and some doubting whether Revelation should be included in the New Testament.

False, the bible also names El, the father of Baal in the Caananite pantheon.

Do you know what El's other name is? Yahweh.

[Vixen]

What do peeps think of this?

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by abaddon

As we can clearly see in this thread.

I can say it is rubbish because I have studied ouija in depth. There is NOTHING supernatural about it.

Bwahahaha. "psychic fight". Oh brother.

Some people are taken in by such rubbish with harmful results. That is nothing new.

One cannot legislate for the gullibility of some people. If they were dumb enough to believe in "spiritual protection" then more fool them. "Spiritual protection" is as useful as a chocolate crash helmet.

False. Epstein was convicted. He was about to be tried again, but he killed himself before that could happen.

As I said:

Certainly nobody has ever been prosecuted for what is clearly an international sex ring involving prominent figures, apart from a nominal 13-month sentence for procuring a prostitute (note, not 'sex trafficking', which specifies underage girls, a much more serious offence) of which Epstein was given huge amounts of day release which he spent at his office on a Caribbean Island.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by abaddon

False, the bible also names El, the father of Baal in the Caananite pantheon.

Do you know what El's other name is? Yahweh.

'In general' doesn't mean 'all, literally'. There are all sorts of references to the 'wicked one'. However when referring to idol worship it'll just say Ba'al without bothering to differentiate between the dozens of different deities.

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Vixen

'In general' doesn't mean 'all, literally'. There are all sorts of references to the 'wicked one'. However when referring to idol worship it'll just say Ba'al without bothering to differentiate between the dozens of different deities.

False. Yahweh's wife Asherah is directly referenced in your bible. Another member of the Caananite pantheon.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by abaddon

False. Yahweh's wife Asherah is directly referenced in your bible. Another member of the Caananite pantheon.

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

The ancient Jews did originally have a female deity who was decisively banished from all mention and it was considered blasphemous to do so.

Your trotting out names means zippo.

[Vixen]

So those of you who were sceptical there was a submarine station at Little St James' have a look at this: Dr Stephen Hawking scooting around the seabed in a submarine at...Little St James'..

[Vixen]

The photo of Stephen Hawkings comes from an article in the DAILY TELEGRAPH as long ago as 2015.

Quote:

Hawking was one of 21 internationally-renowned scientists attending a conference, funded by Epstein, on gravity at the Ritz-Carlton hotel on neighbouring island St Thomas.

<snip>

Quote:

Besides Hawking, there were three Nobel laureates on the trips.

Among those pictured with Hawking on the boat cruise is Professor Lawrence Krauss, a theoretical physicist who works at Arizona State University.

Legal documents have claimed that Epstein's properties were decorated with photographs of naked adolescent girls, but Professor Krauss said that he saw nothing of the sort.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Southeast Asia, or so I've heard. Look up sex tourism.

Gary Glitter was a mere novice compared to Epstein. He married a couple of underage women for his own gratification.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by abaddon

As we can clearly see in this thread.

I can say it is rubbish because I have studied ouija in depth. There is NOTHING supernatural about it.

Bwahahaha. "psychic fight". Oh brother.

Some people are taken in by such rubbish with harmful results. That is nothing new.

One cannot legislate for the gullibility of some people. If they were dumb enough to believe in "spiritual protection" then more fool them. "Spiritual protection" is as useful as a chocolate crash helmet.

False. Epstein was convicted. He was about to be tried again, but he killed himself before that could happen.

Do you really believe a bum from Brooklyn with zero shame would just top himself because he was suddenly wracked with remorse?

[bruto]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Rosicrucians are not Christian, even though they invented a character called Christian Rosenkreutz. When they refer to Christian values they are referring to their self-referring character. Gurdjieff was a sufi master (Islam). Peter Ouspensky was his pupil and was interested in mysical aspect such as the Fourth Way. I have read all of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky and can confirm they have nothing to do with Christianity. Swedenborg like the Madame Blavatsky Theosopists was eclectic and into flying, ESP and auras, not to mention communicating with the dear departed. A far cry from Christianity.

Re Judaism, there are some who believe the Kabbalah is dangerous mysticism.

I'm guessing the Anthroposophy sect are Gnostics. Would I be right? Just a version of 'Know Thyself' and frowned upon by mainstream Christians as being navel-gazing and 'eastern' when they should be outward looking.

The question is not whether they fit your definition of Christianity, or what you think they should or should not do, but whether they are, as you so casually lump them, Satanists. I think most of them are crackpots (though mostly harmless ones), but I also do not think that makes them Satanists. There is a considerable resemblance of Anthroposophy to Gnosticism, though they adamantly reject the notion, and experts on Gnosticism consider it morre a resemblance than substance (now is not the time to get into Gnosticism, I think) but they certainly claim to be Christian, whatever you may think about them, and they most certainly do not worship Satan.

I should point out that I did not include Blavatsky, but her follower Annie Besant, who explicitly claimed (whatever you may think) that Christianity fit with her ideas. Whatever qualifications you apply to count someone as Christian, failure to qualify does not automatically make you a Satanist any more than failure to be a Muslim makes everyone else a Jew.

[Trebuchet]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Do you really believe a bum from Brooklyn with zero shame would just top himself because he was suddenly wracked with remorse?

No. But he would because he was going to spend the rest of his life in prison with no access to little girls.

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

The ancient Jews did originally have a female deity who was decisively banished from all mention and it was considered blasphemous to do so.

Your trotting out names means zippo.

Oh, the bible is wrong and YOU are correct. Is that your position?

[Trebuchet]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Middle-aged/elderly man wants sex orgies with young teenage girls. So where would he find that then even if he was filthy rich?
(snip)

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Southeast Asia, or so I've heard. Look up sex tourism.

Originally Posted by Vixen

Gary Glitter was a mere novice compared to Epstein. He married a couple of underage women for his own gratification.

And that has what to do with my response to the post you made?

Child sex tourism is a thing, and not particularly expensive. The rich, like Epstein don't need it, but lots of middle-class men take part. You don't need a private island. Just an airline ticket to Thailand or Brazil. It's not Satanic, just evil.

[Axxman300]

Gosh, if The Sun said it then it must be true.

Problem however is that Mossad doesn't hire Satanists or suspected Satanists.

[Axxman300]

Originally Posted by Vixen

So those of you who were sceptical there was a submarine station at Little St James' have a look at this: Dr Stephen Hawking scooting around the seabed in a submarine at...Little St James'..

$89 for adults, $49 for kids. You can read about this sub here:


http://www.island.redheadhenry.com/submarine.html

Looks like fun but it's not the Red October.

[Axxman300]

Originally Posted by Vixen

You just don't get it. Do you really believe these people did the posh person equivalent of hiring a motel room or massage parlour for bog standard common or garden variety prostitution?

Think about it it. What was the need for remote islands, ranches in semi-arrid desert and 42 roomed-mansions?

You write so much yet know nothing about the real world of sex trafficking.

Prince bin Salman was in Los Angeles in 2018. He rented out the entire hotel. I don't think his entourage played X-Box all night while they were there. There are people who cater to folks like Saudi Princes in LA and other prime destination cities including London where any sexual whim can be accommodated for those willing to pay.

This is not a secret.

However, proving this activity in a court of law can be daunting to American law enforcement operating in big cities where politics can be a distraction or obstruction depending on the target of a Vice sting. The funding of Al Qaeda by some Saudis comes to mind as an example of how hard it is to reach out and touch some people.

And then there is the issue of drugs and drug addiction and the fact is that there are very beautiful women would would do all kinds on naughty thing with a middle-aged ape like me if I had a deep supply of cocaine or opioids. This is also not a secret either and next time you're in Beverly Hills you can use this knowledge to play a fun version of Bingo while sitting in a coffee shop.

[Elagabalus]

Originally Posted by Vixen

What do peeps think of this?

Very bad graphical design.

[Elagabalus]

Originally Posted by Axxman300

Gosh, if The Sun said it then it must be true...

I wonder if Prince Andrew was Jack the Ripper?

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by bruto

The question is not whether they fit your definition of Christianity, or what you think they should or should not do, but whether they are, as you so casually lump them, Satanists. I think most of them are crackpots (though mostly harmless ones), but I also do not think that makes them Satanists. There is a considerable resemblance of Anthroposophy to Gnosticism, though they adamantly reject the notion, and experts on Gnosticism consider it morre a resemblance than substance (now is not the time to get into Gnosticism, I think) but they certainly claim to be Christian, whatever you may think about them, and they most certainly do not worship Satan.

I should point out that I did not include Blavatsky, but her follower Annie Besant, who explicitly claimed (whatever you may think) that Christianity fit with her ideas. Whatever qualifications you apply to count someone as Christian, failure to qualify does not automatically make you a Satanist any more than failure to be a Muslim makes everyone else a Jew.

They all say that but it's just a play on words. I looked up antroposophy and the guy Steiner who formulated it claims to encompass all religions.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

No. But he would because he was going to spend the rest of his life in prison with no access to little girls.

I'm not so sure, as he hadn't even faced trial yet. With his records of decades of having a blind eye turned to his activities and all of the people he could take down with him, there must have been a chance he'd escape true justice yet again.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

And that has what to do with my response to the post you made?

Child sex tourism is a thing, and not particularly expensive. The rich, like Epstein don't need it, but lots of middle-class men take part. You don't need a private island. Just an airline ticket to Thailand or Brazil. It's not Satanic, just evil.

That used to be the case but now any Western gent hoping to engage in underage sex in Thailand is likely to be investigated.

Going to Bangkok and having sex with teenage prostitutes and ladyboys is NOT the equivalent of what Epstein's pals were doing.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Vixen

You just don't get it.

I don't get evidence, it seems.