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Old 23rd November 2008, 07:54 AM   #81
shadron
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
I'd update that to:

1.8 MYA First spreading of pre-humans out of Africa. (Georgicus)
150,000 BCE Genesis of Sapiens in Africa.
80,000 BCE First spreading of sapiens out of Africa. (Israel and surrounds)
60,000 BCE Sapiens reaches Australia. Another branch reaches Central Asia, stopped there by the glaciers to the north.
45,000 BCE Spreading east and west, sapiens from central Asia spread as far as Europe and China, and displace existing Homo species.
20,000 BCE Following the ice retreat to he north, Asians cross the Bering strait on the land bridge there. They are held up in Alaska by the graciers. They may have been able to get through in small numbers just about this time.
12,000 BCE the glaciers open up an interior corridor in Canada and sapiens quickly file through and colonize all the way to Tierrra del Fuego.
I could accept that; it is more like the Bradshaw interpretation than Wells.
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Old 23rd November 2008, 07:55 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by MaGZ View Post
Could you give me a comparison of the ‘culture’ of Cro-Magnon with the ‘culture’ of his African counterpart which lived during the same period? I doubt they really compare.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurignacian

Not much different to what was in Africa, Asia or Australia at the time.
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Old 23rd November 2008, 08:21 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by MaGZ View Post
...it would seem under the Multiregional theory that it would be unnecessary for Asians or Europeans to have moved back into Africa and become the Black population we have there today.
Why does the OOA theory require this to happen, please?

What the Multiregional theory does require is lots of people moving from one "race" to the next, in order to stabilize the regions and make tthem all move in genetic lock-step. No other animal, as far as I know, had such a complicated evolutionary history. Why us? Why do we need it, and no other animal? And why not in just two areas but four or five, as the wiki page illustrates? The wiki illustration is somewhat misleading as it seems to show that these "travellers" move just as readily between the European and Asian regions as they do the African and Australian regions, and I find that very improbable. But if they didn't then Australian HSS would likely not be compatible with African, which they are. It just seems like a ridiculous house of cards to me.

Of course, it doesn't necessarily have to make sense to me in order to have happened, but I'd like to see the footprints of all these undirected migrants keeping the regions in line through at least three species changes.

Last edited by shadron; 23rd November 2008 at 08:26 AM.
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Old 23rd November 2008, 08:41 AM   #84
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Science works only when scientists are objectively searching for truth. Unfortunately, there are so many people with an "ax to grind" in this area, that truth is clouded by mythology and wishful thinking. OOA appears to have the preponderance of genetic evidence for support, but the Paleontological and cultural evidence are quite ambiguous, i. e. subject to "interpretation." At this point all an objective observer can say is: OOA is the strongest candidate, but there is more work to be done.

Last edited by Perpetual Student; 23rd November 2008 at 08:46 AM.
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Old 23rd November 2008, 11:07 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by MaGZ View Post
If you took the skull of a Cro-Magnon and had a face artist to flesh it out and give us a likeness, do you think the face would be European, Asian or African?
I'm pretty sure he would look Cro-Magnon.
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Old 23rd November 2008, 12:08 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by MaGZ View Post
Not according to our DNA: First Europeans shunned Neanderthal sex
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Old 23rd November 2008, 07:37 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by MaGZ View Post
Could you give me a comparison of the ‘culture’ of Cro-Magnon with the ‘culture’ of his African counterpart which lived during the same period? I doubt they really compare.

What do you think culture is in terms of arcaeology?

It is what is preserved , which is very random at times. You don't know that of which you speak, you do know carthage was in Africa right? (The scourge of Rome).

Tool kits are what are generally preserved in paleolithic cultures because theye xtend beyond the 14,000 year preservation window for -plant/animal material.

So if I say agriculture existed around 60,000 years ago in North Africa, from stone tool use. what comparable technology does Europe have at the time?

You do know the the 'primitive' and 'barabaric' Inuit have the most advanced tool kit of 'primitives' that modern man encounted.

And lets us see the very 'black' people of Mohenjo-Daro had sewers at something like 2800 BCE? Lets see what were the Greeks doing at that time, crapping in pots?

Maybe you should grew some of your data base of knowledge before you generate such rash statements.
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Old 23rd November 2008, 07:43 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by MaGZ View Post
I would argue there is considerable genetic difference among the races. Compare the northern European with a Hottentot side by side. Both human, but one could argue the differences are so great they could be considered separate species.

Please don’t come back and say the only differences between humans and chimpanzees is 1% of the DNA.
It is 3%, so wow, where did you get your data.

Sorry, looks are decieving.

The variation of genetic between the members of your northern europeans is greater than the difference with the Hotentot( if by this you mean the Khe-san), you are sadly misinformed, they are classified as 'caucasian' by racial classification system. Suprised you don't know your own stuff.

"Both human, but one could argue the differences are so great they could be considered separate species"

Except for the fact that the Khe-san are classified as having 'caucasian' features, the narrow nose, the narrow face, the elongated body form. Except for that pesky 'high yellow', they look just like your beloved europeans.
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Last edited by Dancing David; 23rd November 2008 at 07:45 PM.
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Old 23rd November 2008, 07:49 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by shadron View Post
Yeah - Real lakefront property, with reflected sunlight. Really nice if the glacier is stable or receding.

I viewed a web page last year (can't fnd it now) that showed the Great Lakes configuration over the last 20,000 years, the changes were extreme - some of them appeared repeatedly, and then shrank away; sometimes they drained to tthe south, later to the northeast. Michigan and Great Slave Lakes were especially variable, sometimes landlocked, sometimes not. They didn't settle into anything like their current shape until about the time of the Romans.
The fronts and lots and lots of water so they were lush swamps in many way, but there was a mix of decidous and conferous forests as well.

Left the landscape here , really really flat. (That was the one 350,000 BP), some of the wisconsin.
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Old 23rd November 2008, 09:05 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
It is 3%, so wow, where did you get your data.
Different studies using different statistical procedures get different results. Most are 98-point-something.

Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Khe-san
Is this a misspelling of "Khoi-San", or an alternate form I've never encountered?

Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
they are classified as 'caucasian' by racial classification system.
No, they're their own separate race, neither black nor white nor Aborigine nor eastern Asian nor N/S American nor African Pygmy. Their hair is very tightly wound, their noses are wider than white/caucasoid people's (but not by as much as black people's), their lips are thicker, their skin is darker, their body fat distribution is completely unique, and the form of the skin around their eyes is more like eastern Asian than anything else. They might have tall round skulls like Eurasians, but I don't know. Also, I once saw an anthropologist on TV saying that a particular trait of the upper jaw that's normally associated with eastern Asia is also common in certain African populations, and I suspect he was referring to the Khoi-San. (The trait was the upper incisors being in a straight line between the canines instead of on an outward curve.)

There are caucasoids native to Africa, but they're in the North.

* * *

MagZ is being called a racist here pretty frequently, but hasn't shown it in this thread. (He's shown a distinct lack of knowledge of these subjects, but racism is not the same thing.) Are y'all referring to posts (s)he's made in some other thread before?

Last edited by Delvo; 23rd November 2008 at 09:07 PM.
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Old 24th November 2008, 01:46 AM   #91
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Shadron, Damien Evans and Dancing David

This is all so very interesting. I shall have to read the posts again and see if I can hold the time line in my head for more than a short time, and maybe even understand it!

Quote:
Oh, for just a few more lifetimes to study all this and learn!!!
Yes, I do so agree.
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Old 24th November 2008, 02:26 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Different studies using different statistical procedures get different results. Most are 98-point-something.

Is this a misspelling of "Khoi-San", or an alternate form I've never encountered?

No, they're their own separate race, neither black nor white nor Aborigine nor eastern Asian nor N/S American nor African Pygmy...
There is a Wikipedia article on Khoisan (increasingly commonly spelled Khoesan or Khoe-San).
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Old 24th November 2008, 02:28 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by MaGZ View Post
I would argue there is considerable genetic difference among the races. Compare the northern European with a Hottentot side by side. Both human, but one could argue the differences are so great they could be considered separate species.

Please don’t come back and say the only differences between humans and chimpanzees is 1% of the DNA.
The variation within the 'races' is greater then the variation between the 'races'.

'Nuff said, really.
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Old 24th November 2008, 03:15 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Not according to our DNA: First Europeans shunned Neanderthal sex
Which says "Barbujani agrees that mitochondrial DNA alone can't rule out the possibility that Cro-Magnons and Neanderthals bred, but nearly every ancient human skeleton recovered in Europe belongs to either Cro-Magnons or Neanderthals, not the hybrids that would be expected from interbreeding."

The lack of hybrids is far more convincing than the DNA evidence, since it is only taken from mitochondrial DNA.

And, as Richard Dawkins puts it in The Ancestor's Tale,
Quote:
...if only one Neanderthal male, say, bred into a sapiens population, that gave him a reasonable chance of being a common ancestor to all Europeans alive today. This can be true even if Europeans contain no Neanderthal genes at all. A striking thought
(Bolding mine)

I really need to put this into a text file so I don't have to keep re-typing it. The number of times this comes up...
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Old 24th November 2008, 05:47 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Different studies using different statistical procedures get different results. Most are 98-point-something.

Is this a misspelling of "Khoi-San", or an alternate form I've never encountered?
Nope. just didn't check
Quote:

No, they're their own separate race, neither black nor white nor Aborigine nor eastern Asian nor N/S American nor African Pygmy.
Well, that makes my point even further. that races are just arbitrary traits chosen for cultural and social bias.

Again, I just rember , perhaps incorrectly, that many Victorians saw them as caucasians and then went to extreme measure to justify it.
Quote:
Their hair is very tightly wound, their noses are wider than white/caucasoid people's (but not by as much as black people's), their lips are thicker, their skin is darker, their body fat distribution is completely unique, and the form of the skin around their eyes is more like eastern Asian than anything else. They might have tall round skulls like Eurasians, but I don't know. Also, I once saw an anthropologist on TV saying that a particular trait of the upper jaw that's normally associated with eastern Asia is also common in certain African populations, and I suspect he was referring to the Khoi-San. (The trait was the upper incisors being in a straight line between the canines instead of on an outward curve.)

There are caucasoids native to Africa, but they're in the North.
Oh, that is of course just the further irony of racism, it is all meaningless.
Quote:

* * *

MagZ is being called a racist here pretty frequently, but hasn't shown it in this thread. (He's shown a distinct lack of knowledge of these subjects, but racism is not the same thing.) Are y'all referring to posts (s)he's made in some other thread before?
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Old 24th November 2008, 05:51 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Different studies using different statistical procedures get different results. Most are 98-point-something.

Is this a misspelling of "Khoi-San", or an alternate form I've never encountered?

No, they're their own separate race, neither black nor white nor Aborigine nor eastern Asian nor N/S American nor African Pygmy. Their hair is very tightly wound, their noses are wider than white/caucasoid people's (but not by as much as black people's), their lips are thicker, their skin is darker, their body fat distribution is completely unique, and the form of the skin around their eyes is more like eastern Asian than anything else. They might have tall round skulls like Eurasians, but I don't know. Also, I once saw an anthropologist on TV saying that a particular trait of the upper jaw that's normally associated with eastern Asia is also common in certain African populations, and I suspect he was referring to the Khoi-San. (The trait was the upper incisors being in a straight line between the canines instead of on an outward curve.)

There are caucasoids native to Africa, but they're in the North.

* * *

MagZ is being called a racist here pretty frequently, but hasn't shown it in this thread. (He's shown a distinct lack of knowledge of these subjects, but racism is not the same thing.) Are y'all referring to posts (s)he's made in some other thread before?
Yes. he's a well known anti-semite/white nationalist, and his name, MAGZ stands for "Missiles At Ground Zero". Of course, he believes the mossad launched these missiles.
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Old 24th November 2008, 08:11 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post

No, they're their own separate race, neither black nor white nor Aborigine nor eastern Asian nor N/S American nor African Pygmy.
Given the back and forth in the other thread there isn’t much excuse for you to continue making this same error. There is no formal definition of race, and there is no formal definition of what the races are. Your claim that they constitute a “separate race” is simply an appeal to self authority. The claim they are part of some other race, is just as much of an appeal to self authority of course. That’s the trouble with using “definitions” that are not actually defined.


To the subject at hand, there is good evidence to suggest humanity went through a serious population bottleneck ~60 000 years ago. This, along with the limited genetic diversity within homo sapiens sapiens means any separate regional evolution is highly unlikely. Even if there were separate regional populations they likely died off 60 000 years ago and were replaced with a new wave of settlement coming from Africa.
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Old 24th November 2008, 10:30 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by MaGZ View Post
Are you seriously suggesting the Black tribes of Africa today and the Chinese are descended from Cro-Magnons?
No, you need to read and comprehend what he said - and it doesn't matter if you follow the rest, If you can't, then do whatever you wish - it will not affect the actual evolution/ anthropology in the slightest.
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Old 24th November 2008, 02:38 PM   #99
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What three basic races?
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Old 24th November 2008, 02:55 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
What three basic races?
Terrans
Protoss
Zerg

(Someone had to do it. Sorry.)

DR
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Old 24th November 2008, 03:04 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
What three basic races?
Whites, Blacks, and Asians, I think. The Jews, of course, are an acidic race.
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Old 24th November 2008, 03:33 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Terrans
Protoss
Zerg
Bah. Elvish science sneers at your outlandish sci-fi gobbledygook.

The first race is obviously the elves, and the second is men. There are some who think that the dwarves came first, but that one doesn't really count.


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Old 25th November 2008, 08:29 AM   #103
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STOP PRESS!
Recent research suggests people are still evolving on several continents.

Oh- and hey- what do you get if you cross a Bushman with a Japanese?


A kid.

Wierd how that happens, eh?
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Old 25th November 2008, 09:47 AM   #104
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A mongrel, an abomination, a sin...

ah ooh ah, it is a baby.

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Old 25th November 2008, 12:01 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by MaGZ View Post
I would argue there is considerable genetic difference among the races. Compare the northern European with a Hottentot side by side. Both human, but one could argue the differences are so great they could be considered separate species.
But they are not, and no reputable scientist so argues. Why not? If modern civilization has shown us anything, it has shown us that not only can the two "races" (indeed members of the subraces you specifically mention) interbreed easily but with completely viable offspring. Whatever genetic differences are between the two, and I'll not deny that there are plenty from superficial physical appearance differences driven by the genes, those differences are not core to whatever it is in the genome that makes us human. We cannot interbreed with chimpanzees or bonobos, the closest living relatives there are to humans, but we sure can between any two "races" you care to draw individuals from. Equivalently there is considerable physical differences between Chihuahuas and Russian Wolfhounds, so much physical difference that a natural interbreeding between them is very unlikely to happen, but they are all still Canis lupus familiaris, and they can be crossbred, with the friendly intervention of a turkey baster if necessary, and produce viable offspring.

For that one fact and that one fact alone, the "races" of man are relatively superficial differences between members of a single species. Delvo pointed out the differences between the San and the tribes that surround them; while he used the term race, I would interpret that as meaning a tribe from a distant area migrated into the Kalahari region long ago. I presume that that is what "race" means to Delvo, and I provisionally accept his statement on that basis, understanding that race doesn't stand in for a significant genetic difference, one big enough to bring us to worry about a superior or inferior species (whatever that may be).

And that is the tihing that makes me very skepical of the Multiregion hypothesis. It says that Homo erectus traveled to and settled the world, and then each of the "centers" of population evolved from erectus to habilis, and from habilis to sapiens. In order to do that in such a way that we can interbreed freely today, they have enough population trade between the centers that none of them drift far enough to become their own species; that the migrants kept all trained enough together that they act evolutionarily as a single population. And yet they managed to evolve, and not mix, these superficial adaptations, like skin color and lactose tolerance. That seems a stretch too far.
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Old 25th November 2008, 12:09 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by shadron View Post
Whatever genetic differences are between the two, and I'll not deny that there are plenty from superficial physical appearance differences driven by the genes, those differences are not core to whatever it is in the genome that makes us human.

Apparently humans have less genetic variation then almost any other large mammal.
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Old 25th November 2008, 05:09 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
Yes. he's a well known anti-semite/white nationalist, and his name, MAGZ stands for "Missiles At Ground Zero". Of course, he believes the mossad launched these missiles.
You are either ignorant or a liar. I have never claimed the Mossad had anything to do with the missile that hit WTC 7.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ad.php?t=83514
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Old 25th November 2008, 05:11 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by shadron View Post
But they are not, and no reputable scientist so argues. Why not? If modern civilization has shown us anything, it has shown us that not only can the two "races" (indeed members of the subraces you specifically mention) interbreed easily but with completely viable offspring. Whatever genetic differences are between the two, and I'll not deny that there are plenty from superficial physical appearance differences driven by the genes, those differences are not core to whatever it is in the genome that makes us human. We cannot interbreed with chimpanzees or bonobos, the closest living relatives there are to humans, but we sure can between any two "races" you care to draw individuals from. Equivalently there is considerable physical differences between Chihuahuas and Russian Wolfhounds, so much physical difference that a natural interbreeding between them is very unlikely to happen, but they are all still Canis lupus familiaris, and they can be crossbred, with the friendly intervention of a turkey baster if necessary, and produce viable offspring.

For that one fact and that one fact alone, the "races" of man are relatively superficial differences between members of a single species. Delvo pointed out the differences between the San and the tribes that surround them; while he used the term race, I would interpret that as meaning a tribe from a distant area migrated into the Kalahari region long ago. I presume that that is what "race" means to Delvo, and I provisionally accept his statement on that basis, understanding that race doesn't stand in for a significant genetic difference, one big enough to bring us to worry about a superior or inferior species (whatever that may be).

And that is the tihing that makes me very skepical of the Multiregion hypothesis. It says that Homo erectus traveled to and settled the world, and then each of the "centers" of population evolved from erectus to habilis, and from habilis to sapiens. In order to do that in such a way that we can interbreed freely today, they have enough population trade between the centers that none of them drift far enough to become their own species; that the migrants kept all trained enough together that they act evolutionarily as a single population. And yet they managed to evolve, and not mix, these superficial adaptations, like skin color and lactose tolerance. That seems a stretch too far.
You've got that the wrong way around. Habilis came before Erectus.
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Old 25th November 2008, 05:31 PM   #109
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If anyone has posted this already, my apologies...it give a very good overview of how we know how we got here.

https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/...hic/index.html

and then there is this too.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=...tory-of-humans

glenn
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Old 25th November 2008, 07:53 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
You've got that the wrong way around. Habilis came before Erectus.
Ha. See, you do learn something every day - I thought erectus always came first.
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Old 25th November 2008, 09:16 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
You've got that the wrong way around. Habilis came before Erectus.
Well if you have to do it that way...
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Old 26th November 2008, 04:40 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
You've got that the wrong way around. Habilis came before Erectus.
That is correct. Please edit-in-head appropriately.
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Old 26th November 2008, 06:56 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by shadron View Post
That is correct. Please edit-in-head appropriately.
Other than that, it was an excellent post.
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Old 26th November 2008, 05:24 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by MaGZ View Post
I would argue there is considerable genetic difference among the races. Compare the northern European with a Hottentot side by side. Both human, but one could argue the differences are so great they could be considered separate species.
According to Wikipedia, "Hottentot" is an offensive term for "Khoikhoi":
Quote:
The name Khoekhoe most accurately translates to 'People People'. They were traditionally—and are still occasionally in colloquial language—known to white colonists as the Hottentots, a name that is currently generally considered offensive (e.g. by the Oxford Dictionary of South African English).
Strange choice of words, huh? But that's besides the point. The differences between a northern European and a Khoi are certainly not greater than the differences between a poodle and an Irish wolfhound, yet both are the same species. What about a chihuahua and a Great Dane?

Hell, let's just take different breeds of sighthounds alone: Afghan hound vs whippet vs pharaoh hound...

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Please don’t come back and say the only differences between humans and chimpanzees is 1% of the DNA.
Why not, because it refutes your racist notions so it's uncomfortable to see?

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Old 2nd January 2009, 01:44 PM   #115
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An analysis of 3 major origin hypotheses

I came upon this thread via Gaspode recommending it as a 'spotlight' topic to be included in an index sticky? For those interested in this topic, the link below is to a thread on RD.net where the 3 major hypotheses on the origin of modern man are examined in detail. With email input from David Stringer and Alan Templeton, and direct participation by Milford Wolpoff, it covers most of the key issues in this decades long paleoanthropological dialectic. Some very interesting posts expressing a variety of informed perspectives.

http://richarddawkins.net/forum/view...&t=42658&hilit
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Old 2nd January 2009, 02:33 PM   #116
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Some informative posts. ..others well.......

Homo floresensis would seem a likely candidate for Island isolation giving rise to a subspecies with island miniaturization tossed in,

After all pygmies and San and Australian indigenes have variations that go back at least 40k years and we do know there were parallel advances to H Sapiens in Africa all of which died out.

Mitochondrial Eve seems to put paid to ANY source other than Africa for any surviving humans but does not for homo floresensis or Neanderthal which could have been an earlier OOA that failed to survive.

Did anyone get mitochondrial DNA from a Neanderthal source?? That would be VERY illuminating.
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Old 2nd January 2009, 06:51 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by macdoc View Post
Some informative posts. ..others well.......

Homo floresensis would seem a likely candidate for Island isolation giving rise to a subspecies with island miniaturization tossed in,


After all pygmies and San and Australian indigenes have variations that go back at least 40k years and we do know there were parallel advances to H Sapiens in Africa all of which died out.

Mitochondrial Eve seems to put paid to ANY source other than Africa for any surviving humans but does not for homo floresensis or Neanderthal which could have been an earlier OOA that failed to survive.

Did anyone get mitochondrial DNA from a Neanderthal source?? That would be VERY illuminating.
No. Floresensis is a species, not a subspecies.
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Old 2nd January 2009, 10:08 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by macdoc View Post
Some informative posts. ..others well.......

Homo floresensis would seem a likely candidate for Island isolation giving rise to a subspecies with island miniaturization tossed in,

After all pygmies and San and Australian indigenes have variations that go back at least 40k years and we do know there were parallel advances to H Sapiens in Africa all of which died out.

Mitochondrial Eve seems to put paid to ANY source other than Africa for any surviving humans but does not for homo floresensis or Neanderthal which could have been an earlier OOA that failed to survive.

Did anyone get mitochondrial DNA from a Neanderthal source?? That would be VERY illuminating.
Neanderthal DNA
Quote:
The Neanderthal sequence has 28.2 ±1.9 substitutions from the European lineage, 27.1 ±12.2 substitutions from the African lineage, 27.7 ±2.2 substitutions from the Asian lineage, 27.4 ±1.8 substitutions from the American lineage, and 28.3 ±2.7 substitutions from the Australian/Oceanic lineages. This indicates no closer a relationship with Europeans than with the other modern human subsets considered.

The comparison to chimpanzees with modern humans is 55.0 ±3.0, compared to the average between humans and Neanderthals of 25.6 ±2.2. These results indicate a divergence of the human and Neanderthal lineages long before the most recent common mtDNA ancestor of humans. Based on the estimated divergence date of 4-5 million years ago for humans and chimpanzees, the authors estimate the human and Neanderthal divergence at 550,000-690,000 years ago. The age of the common human ancestor, using the same procedure, is about 120,000-150,000 years ago.

These results do not rule out the possibility that Neanderthals contributed other genes to modern humans. However, the results support the hypothesis that modern humans arose in Africa before migrating to Europe and replacing the Neanderthal population with little or no interbreeding. ...

[From a second source of DNA]The two Neanderthals share 19 substitutions. Although the two Neanderthals were separated by 2,500 km, they are closely related in mtDNA lineages.

This second study estimates the most recent common ancestor of the Neanderthals at 151,000-352,000 years, while the human and Neanderthal divergence is placed at 365,00-853,000 years. The same model produces an age for the divergence of modern humans at 106,000-246,000 years ago.
The argument may have been going on for decades, but genetic science ended it for the most part. Our ancestors are African and all homo sapiens evolved there before groups began migrating out.
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Old 2nd January 2009, 10:21 PM   #119
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Thanks, good info but does not the Neanderthal themselves represent a earlier OOA excursion of parallel near human primate???

•••

Quote:
No. Floresensis is a species, not a subspecies.
Is that firmly established??? If so that also supports earlier excursions that have died out.

Neither contradicts Eve mitochondrial lineage for current H Sapiens.
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Old 3rd January 2009, 05:43 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by macdoc View Post
Thanks, good info but does not the Neanderthal themselves represent a earlier OOA excursion of parallel near human primate???

•••



Is that firmly established??? If so that also supports earlier excursions that have died out.

Neither contradicts Eve mitochondrial lineage for current H Sapiens.
Yes, it's firmly established*. Brain studies have shown it to be unlike any human seen before, specifically disproving microcephaly, which was the main argument against species status. The bone structure is also markedly different from modern humans.

*Of course, this doesn't mean people won't still be arguing about it for another 50 years.

Sources:
http://www.pnas.org/content/104/7/2513.abstract
http://www.pnas.org/content/104/7/2513.full.pdf
http://anthropology.net/2007/01/30/d...s-own-species/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6311619.stm
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