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Old 22nd June 2012, 07:43 PM   #81
el zone
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So any updates guys? My vase is still going strong, I'm aquaculturing lots of coral still just wondering if we have any budding micro reef scientists in the crowd and how these tanks above are doing
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Old 22nd June 2012, 08:09 PM   #82
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I would love to do something like this, do you mind if I stay in touch via PM?
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Old 22nd June 2012, 08:51 PM   #83
el zone
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Hi! let me pm u my email sometimes update notifier doesn't work here but I love jref forum! Great place to hash out science of all kinds. I'll tell you all the pros and cons of the setup thanks for inquiring

6-22-12 16 genera hard and soft/lps sps coral documented in the vase. Brb 6-?- 2013

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Old 22nd June 2012, 09:39 PM   #84
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One last update for this year June is when I like to catch updates-
Aside from the hobby impacts I wanted to offer this science as something measurably beneficial to mother nature.

Just last nite on NBC nightly news they ran a story on mariculture of endangered staghorn acropora off coastal Florida. They are using marine biologists to delicately clip and insert coral frags in barren reef patches around the southern keys, a huge whoop tee do in the marine bio community for obvious reasons, the coral is endangered and it provides myriad benefit to the ecosystem.

With this vase we could all replicate the production of endangered biomass NO PROBLEM
All over the united states, then fed ex them our completed bowls overnite and they could dump ten thousand pounds of live, reproductive staghorn into the ocean by just dropping the vases out of planes and letting the glass naturally degrade into silicate again via reef action.

The staghorn would grow to such copious nuisance levels I wouldn't even use it were it not for preservation of an endangered species.

Brown sps corals are exquisitely/exceptionally/perfectly adapted for reef vases due to zooxanthellae loading and the natural nutrient levels in pico reefs.

Our problem -is- our $$ red and blue acroporids going back to brown in the vases as that pigmentation and growth morphology is amplified in these bowls.

Any average keeper organization, non marine biologist, can grow tons of this endangered coral the guys down at the keys are missing out big time on free biomass, wish someone would get permits to ship me some plugs let me show you what a nerd in the Texas panhandle can do with your endangered species and a vase from Wal mart.

All my online buddies from nano-reef.com could join in, we'd outpace your mariculture in a few years ~

The blue splotches on the vase above is -brown acropora- spreading onto the glass and altering pigmentation due to lighting concentration on the underside of the skeleton.

This is a direct cousin to staghorn acropora, same genus even. I'm telling you staghorn would grow to plague proportions in anyones contemporary pico reef we wouldn't even use it, brown sps take over our small reefs they are the fastest growing sps species we could stock

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Old 23rd June 2012, 01:13 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by el zone View Post
So any updates guys? My vase is still going strong, I'm aquaculturing lots of coral still just wondering if we have any budding micro reef scientists in the crowd and how these tanks above are doing
That is truly amazing.
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Old 23rd June 2012, 03:42 PM   #86
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Hey thank you! Guess what, through a contact on nano-reef.com who works with marine biologists in Florida I am very close to getting a living fragment of the endangered staghorn to grow and aquaculture in the bowl. He is verifying the legality of mailing it to me but he is authorized to work with it in mariculture settings, I'm keeping fingers crossed, it would be a dream of mine if I'm allowed to work with it.

mariculture= using safe zones in the ocean to grow corals
aquaculture= in an aquarium, or in this case a vase lol.

Pic updates if I get the frag!
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Old 23rd June 2012, 08:29 PM   #87
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Great idea el zone. When I have the time I'll post updates of my tank saga - I was out of the woods and doing quite well but due to lengthy business travel lately it is once again tragic. I'm once again unsure about what my next move will be, but every update you make here is downright inspirational. Keep em coming and definitely keep us informed about the Staghorn project.
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Old 23rd June 2012, 09:34 PM   #88
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Thanks brother kind regards
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Old 19th July 2012, 06:08 PM   #89
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Jodie did you set it up? its been almost a month now you'd be suprised how fast these mature, you'd already have your first spots of coralline pink algae on the glass, this is the glue that holds the reefs together all around the world and we get to mimic/observe that too in these vases

holler back lets rock this thing!
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Old 19th July 2012, 08:59 PM   #90
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I actually planned to go to window shopping for my light on Saturday, I've got the Wal Mart vase and lid. I had some minor surgery that cut into my budget for the coral reef so i'll have to wait a couple of more pay periods to get the light. I'm glad you told me about the pink algae, I might have thought I messed things up.
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Old 21st July 2012, 06:22 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by el zone View Post
By rare I mean no others on the planet any marine science gurus in here? These are interesting if you have an eye for special fish tanks. Since I'm new I can't link, but you can copy and paste this into youtube for the coolest vid

Globe Ecosystem
link#1
tell me if you liked it as much as I did
As far as bad it's ok, but if you really want bad then this is one example.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=NP0Qk4DnLis#!

More bad.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...a8VhLGh2s&NR=1

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Old 21st July 2012, 03:35 PM   #92
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Those were absolutely beautiful.
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Old 23rd July 2012, 08:40 AM   #93
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Sure those are neat, with enough money anyone can have a large freshwater tank and those amanos have always been a favorite of mine since the 90's. A small saltwater coral reef can't compete with those visually, but for originality the amanos are a dime a dozen!
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Old 1st July 2013, 07:32 PM   #94
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2013 update

Bump once a year lol here's 2013. If the system dies no more updates. I believe the system to have an indefinite biological lifespan unlike most aquaria. The export from the system is all encompassing, nothing sinks.

it has reproduced its own coral mass hundreds of time over, this system turns fish food into 16 varieties of coral that can be harvested indefinitely.

That science is what we like to discuss in this thread. Any aspect of aquarium science.

Luck is what I rely on...one hideous power outage and im done. Thankfully, Ive only had one outage since last update and my battery backup system was sufficient. 8 yrs in the making, see you in 2014
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkNZstT8MnE
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Old 1st July 2013, 07:38 PM   #95
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Look at how the sps coral acropora patch on the glass has grown in one year from the pic at the top. I have to chip it out in frags to keep it under control, its blue green on the other side you can't see. Little spires of it project inward onto the rock and i chip those off and glue them to rocks and give them away to become larger colonies elsewhere
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Old 2nd July 2013, 07:28 AM   #96
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Very cool. Would love to see more pics from different angles.
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Old 3rd July 2013, 03:08 PM   #97
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Nice to see you this year luchog I can always count on a fellow aquarist to stop by. I took some quick ipad shots here at lunch...no editing or brightness etc just showing 2013 coral growth

Red favites brain coral in the rear creeping down that rock is a money maker. I don't take the time, but that can be fragged, mounted and sold to my lfs for $$ they are in demand. That's an aggressive feeding brain coral with a lifespan of indefinite centuries happily living in a fishbowl.

We are killing the crap out of all coral in the wild

Ye ark vessels perhaps all known Coral will be captive at some point. This is surely one easy way to grow them into positive biomass.
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Old 3rd July 2013, 03:10 PM   #98
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Brain
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Old 3rd July 2013, 03:48 PM   #99
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Very cool! Unfortunately I am a fish-killer, I can't even keep "easy" fish alive for very long.
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Old 3rd July 2013, 04:11 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by el zone View Post
Red favites brain coral in the rear creeping down that rock is a money maker. I don't take the time, but that can be fragged, mounted and sold to my lfs for $$ they are in demand. That's an aggressive feeding brain coral with a lifespan of indefinite centuries happily living in a fishbowl.
Brain corals are some of my favorites. That one looks great.
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Old 26th June 2014, 07:00 AM   #101
el zone
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still going

Ill update this thread for the next 20 yrs, bet

who is taking bets it will still be around

naturally with a little hardware, power outage luck but the point is demonstrating biological reliance and solid, solid aquarium design.

in just the span of this thread alone, scores of people set up real "reef tanks" that have come and gone with the wind, to dirt, mines pumping out coral every month and its sold online for paypal inputs.

2014 update post up your aquariums people if you keep them

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8zMWHAkJtM


and a review of the vase in a science blog for aquariums
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog...l-going-strong

its really rare to keep coral alive this long in home aquariums much less a decorative vase, one set of corals in this vase has been produced only in the vase and has never known the real ocean, its 14 years of stony coral from a single lineage I purchased in the 90s

There is a very good reason for using this same thread continually, we are tracking the science of aquarium lifespan, and all the predictions people make about it in one place.
One thread makes for a lifespan track where we can discuss all the good and bad in the evolving ecosystem. the bad right now is highly invasive red mushroom corals that have multiplied and are stinging other harder to grow corals, really setting back the growth. with 8 inches across there isn't a lot of room for battle.

posted below is what slow coral encroachment battle looks like

also posted is a closeup shot of acropora reef building coral, at the skeleton matrix level

look how these animal polyps lay down stone, in a cross hatched pattern~ its amazing.
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File Type: jpg 20140212_180803-picsay.jpg (89.1 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg 20140319_200705-picsay.jpg (82.7 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg 20131122_215650-picsay.jpg (46.5 KB, 7 views)

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Old 26th June 2014, 07:17 AM   #102
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youtube has many of these vases now, set up by hundreds of people worldwide, we exchange pm's and discuss the biology of micro captive reefs. this reef tank is more stable than any reef tank you can find, because it doesnt rely on much technology, its pure biology.

fw version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R237MB2jvb8

Last edited by el zone; 26th June 2014 at 07:27 AM.
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Old 27th June 2014, 06:00 AM   #103
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Glad to see it still going el z, amazing stuff. Thanks for updating.
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Old 23rd April 2015, 12:02 PM   #104
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update another yr

still going



so obviously a crowded 1 gal vase of coral isnt the baddest aquarium in the world, but, what if it outlives those that currently hold the status? im claiming to compete via science and design, and lifespan documented, not cost factor.

sheer sustenance of that which is dying in our natural settings in some places...the coral and inverts associated.
to me thats how the crowded little vase competes, we are seeing a multi year trend that hardware/luck/no large power outages willing, will be the oldest micro tank in the world. here's pic from last week, the blue sps is slowly taking over the entire vase. its important to keep updates and pics in one long running thread, the test here is longevity and documentation
Sorry sideways I'll try fix
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Old 23rd April 2015, 08:41 PM   #105
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Update on planted system 14 yrs, this system is the closest Ive ever seen to a self cycling ecosystem which processes neocaridina shrimp waste and turns it into stalked plant material
12 ft tall. I once went seven years without w water change on this

It is specifically designed to live indefinitely. Longer than a person, like nature.



These are living long term biome experiments using specific balances to attain maximum primary production. If one did a stalk of corn per pod this is a reproducing crop support system. The end goal is self sustaining production pods for marine and freshwater food stuffs for either space travel or earth preservation use.


As a purely novel non scientific approach, the first drone control aquarium.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qrnqoc2hOZs
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Old 23rd April 2015, 08:43 PM   #106
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The system doesn't let me post two pics per post my apologies.
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Old 16th February 2016, 08:15 AM   #107
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this year we had to clean that rascal vase out it was a decade packed in. wound up with this new set of growth to start clean this coming decade:
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Old 16th February 2016, 08:23 AM   #108
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The impact of this simple science is being able to grow nearly any species of coral in meager containers for cost effectiveness for any use. I'm hoping decades of proof testing gives extra options for preserving some species for later transplant in area of natural or man made distress
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Old 16th February 2016, 09:15 AM   #109
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So basically the coral crammed the tank? Success!
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Old 31st March 2016, 01:46 PM   #110
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yep that's the success. for most systems like this, they die before they grow at all. the visual appeal has nothing to do with the longevity or coral farming science, although that's the typical breadth of evaluation when considering topical/nonscientific analysis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnzPP0jZ15Y

not that crowded at all, in fact its got good spacing considering the size and age. we -harvest- these corals out, positive biomass production, that's why it gets grown in...before the cull. the system is significant beyond typical visual-only evaluation due to producing for export hundreds of times its own mass in corals per decade. many larger systems wont do that...but a bare bones one in a fishbowl can be made to, with bioengineering<--- that's the point of micro production systems. that, and chemical suppression/habituation studies etc.

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Old 1st April 2016, 05:13 PM   #111
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I get the point that it is way more efficient than large scale coral farming, but is it cost effective to grow and distribute on such a small scale?
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Old 1st April 2016, 07:18 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by grunion View Post
I get the point that it is way more efficient than large scale coral farming, but is it cost effective to grow and distribute on such a small scale?

I would think so, since the market is a very small and specialized one, it's easier for small producers to be involved. Particularly with the increasing moratoriums on wild harvesting, and reliance on breeders.

A lot of aquarists don't even buy from shops at first, but get their start through "frag swaps" organized their local aquarium societies, and only purchase corals once they have their tanks established and stable, and an good idea of the effort and techniques necessary to maintain their system in good condition.
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Old 1st April 2016, 08:17 PM   #113
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You both are always on par thanks for responding.

The only benefit to these is bare bones repeatability not speed of production I agree. They allow masses to study, cheaply, affordably. Friends from this thread pmd me, we got to reefing stat.

There is no doubt a few kessil lights from Amazon, 40 breeder with pumps heater, hq water mix, the right feed, and frag racks would outpace this in coral growth. But I'm thinking basic, something you assemble in a hut at a research station to study bleaching events in a separate biome on the spot type application. Nowadays everyone is doing these, no longer special.



We wanted to advance simplification science first, vessel preference last. Happens to be a vase here in preference due to the way the lid rests on the inner diameter not resting on top like a normal reef. ID lid mount changed the salinity control and salt creep development 180 opposite of normal.

This arrangement here, beyond the obviously packed nature, has a freshwater top off requirement to stay at .023 of once ounce of water every four days the impact of that is salinity stability without special equipment to plug in.

That's the total loss...two ounces of water a week and you can produce at least fifteen solid frags in a bowl. the arrangement allows anyone to grow five hundred bucks of coral very long term, it has redundancies built in, and nothing is for sale it's free science exchange.
It would be neat if someone would build a pico reef right now and document it

Source your stuff wherever, we assemble and biotune biohack here



My friend who posts professional level pico reef work has me quite happy reading here
http://www.reefhobbyistmagazine.com/...8-issue-35.pdf

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Old 23rd October 2017, 03:25 PM   #114
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgonY5FXxVE

the reason Im still updating this is to document the longest living pico reef on the planet all in once place, and to deliver for the skeptics which was the entire point of the very first post. reef bowl still alive
that vid is my most recent, from a year ago, rb is still alive and if I can get my browser working on this forum ill post a pic from just now


that is a full and complete brain coral specimen grown solely in this vase, from a frag from another colony. all of that coral is locally sourced, not harvested from reefs. These vases en masse are a way of saving certain species until things reset on the real reefs in a hundred years. im 12 years into this vase, it has no limit on biological lifespan given all normal parameters, just like a normal real reef. look how the brain coral has filled in from the comparative pics above. this is total volume of one gallon, about 8 species of coral as of the latest culls.

The science impact is two million people can keep coral vases and produce coral mass knowing nothing about marine biology. just follow ten steps, grow the reef in a mason jar if you want its common online nowadays. This vase is the first pico reef online, so its actually possible to map the coral mass the technique has produced owing to all those pico posts out there we can read up on.

its not that corals are crammed in there, its that they grew that way after light stocking and decade. The allelopathic and other signals that suppress them in nature, cause mass war for territory, has been biologically muted here and we're just proving that year by year.

this micro model is meant to demonstrate that we have full control over the lifespan-limiting variables in home coral production. a reef doesn't ever do anything unpredictable, even when scaled down 1/100th size. Guess how many were skeptics of the idea in 2001

100% of reefers.

A very respected scientific publication is about to release on this bad boy w post, its coming up.
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Last edited by el zone; 23rd October 2017 at 03:46 PM.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 03:32 PM   #115
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That's pretty impressive! I had a 54gal pentagonal with a 15gal sump marine tank that I ran for several years. Had to give it up, sadly, because of time constraints.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 03:33 PM   #116
el zone
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thanks for checking it out! you know I miss all the cool marine fish this is only sized for coral growth ironically hah

that brain coral was also present at the very top most picture, it was just at the bottom layer and was obscured by the others. I didn't expect to find any brain left when I delved into the bowl for cleaning, but enough was there to produce the middle picture set, then this most recent one was the rock being guided back to a complete colony, not a frag, inside a flower vase 1 gallon using only an air bubbler and common reef feed and water changes.

here was the 8 lb brain coral rock taken out of the bowl and put on a dinner plate recently. its huge considering it came from a quarter inch frag.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 03:47 PM   #117
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Nice to see the pico reef is still going strong!
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Old 23rd October 2017, 03:49 PM   #118
el zone
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Luchog hello friend

fellow reefers usually recognize the core rearrangements here to allow for use outside reefing norms

its just simpler than most thought was an option and any large reef can easily mimic the approach but those huge water changes are simply prohibitive. we're making use of our access here in a special way, so that we can pack in feeding that will be coral-equivalent to larger setups with much better dilution, but less actual export.

we don't use skimmers, but technically a 100% weekly water change is export enough, however we want to slice that. Im sure if we didn't change water weekly, organics would accumulate.

feeding, we blast feed then change the water that's how the corals grow so dense. we aren't changing 20% water via 1997 and feeding sparsely to control algae, we're over feeding, over water changing, and turbo charging corals.

we simply spot kill algae we don't toy around with measuring for nutrients actually. its simply killed, I don't care what the phosphate readings are.

regarding evaporation, these are once weekly topoff due to the lid fit, evaporation = solved.

that should cover all major aspects of the device/arrangement.

lastly, the critical gas exchange reef tanks require: that's why this isn't a powerhead setup. its air, for pressurization to cause equilibrium wth the living room

Provided the home is not Co2 retentive, all pH factors work out due to our weekly servicing. we do not have to add any boosters or calcium or alk in the normal means.

Last edited by el zone; 23rd October 2017 at 05:41 PM.
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Old 24th October 2017, 10:07 AM   #119
el zone
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the parts exist now in the form of cheap reef LED lighting that fit into normal light bulb sockets such that someone can set up a reef vase for about $150 w a few corals including all hardware. Anyone here up for a custom run
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Old 24th October 2017, 10:42 AM   #120
sir drinks-a-lot
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Great thread. I'm still catching up on reading and trying to figure out what is going on.

I've kept aquariums for about 25 years, and would consider myself at maybe an intermediate to lower advanced hobbyist level. Currently running a 125 gallon fowlr (well, a couple of softies) which is more or less successful.

I've never done a full on stony coral tank, but read quite a bit about them. Great and fascinating project by el zone. How do you test and supplement Ca and Alkalinity?
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