ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags agw , climate change , global warming , global warming denial

Reply
Old 14th January 2020, 11:55 AM   #201
crescent
Illuminator
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,357
Originally Posted by fritznien View Post
Thats all well and good but 3 or 5 C, but what is the plan?
Does anyone have a workable plan?
The problem with any plan is that as soon as a plan is put forward, it is immediately attacked by the deniers. That includes a lot of disinformation about the plan. The plan becomes the thing to plan against.

So long as the American Republican Party, other like-minded political parties of other nations, and so many large businesses maintain the pseudo-religious disbelief in human-caused climate change, planning counts for little. Any plan developed now would not be implemented until conditions have changed so much as to make the plan moot.

The closest thing to a viable plan is to take individual action while continuing to apply pressure (including voting) to get politicians to acknowledge human caused climate change and to accept that a plan is needed.

Last edited by crescent; 14th January 2020 at 01:04 PM.
crescent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2020, 12:00 PM   #202
Armitage72
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 3,866
Over the weekend I heard someone claim that the data shows that the climate is currently the most stable it's been in history. I just cannot comprehend how that conclusion can be reached. I guess a steady climb can be considered stable, in a sense.
Armitage72 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2020, 12:29 PM   #203
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 88,393
Originally Posted by fritznien View Post
Thats all well and good but 3 or 5 C, but what is the plan?
Does anyone have a workable plan?
We don't have one.

My personal wager, to my great distress, is that the situation will correct itself... in the sense that we're not going to do anything about it and will be reduced in population so much that our ability to affect climate will be removed, while the system rights itself over the next few millennia.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2020, 12:37 PM   #204
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 22,950
We (as in overall civilization) will wait until the last minute when the problem gets so big we can't ignore, the smart people we (again as overall civilization) have been ignoring will pull a miracle out of their butts to fix it and then we (see above) will go "See? No big big deal, we were all worried sick about nothing."
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2020, 01:13 PM   #205
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 26,422
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Thanks Sherlock, that was actually self-evident. ...insult snipped...
But not what you wrote: "Good news on the climate at long last!"
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2020, 02:14 PM   #206
hgus
Critical Thinker
 
hgus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 345
Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Over the weekend I heard someone claim that the data shows that the climate is currently the most stable it's been in history. I just cannot comprehend how that conclusion can be reached. I guess a steady climb can be considered stable, in a sense.
If I recall correctly the climate have been remarkably stable the last ten thousand years. If you remove the last hundred years or so that is.
hgus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2020, 02:28 PM   #207
novaphile
Quester of Doglets
Moderator
 
novaphile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,349
My expectation is that things will unfold like this.

1. Eventually things become so bad, that the deniers have to stop denying.
2. The general population murder all the scientists, and anyone who can think, for not doing enough to prevent climate change.
3. Civilisation collapses, and remnant, isolated populations of humans eventually succumb to easily preventable disease due to a lack of nutrition and vaccinations.

I'm expecting that the above will happen roughly 100 years after my death.
__________________
We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato.
novaphile is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2020, 08:14 PM   #208
Red Baron Farms
Illuminator
 
Red Baron Farms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,966
Originally Posted by fritznien View Post
Thats all well and good but 3 or 5 C, but what is the plan?
Does anyone have a workable plan?
I have one yes. But let's just assume I am a self serving Kook, and my plan is BS....

I have also identified no fewer than 6 other plans that probably could work if enough people actually made the effort.

Here is one of the better ones, not perfect but pretty damn good.
Project Drawdown

This one is pretty good too and gaining traction:
Savory Institute: Our Mission

And obviously there is the IPCC plan. It's not bad.
__________________
Scott
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison
Biome Carbon Cycle Management

Last edited by Red Baron Farms; 14th January 2020 at 08:17 PM.
Red Baron Farms is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2020, 08:46 PM   #209
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 26,422
Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
I have one yes. But let's just assume I am a self serving Kook, and my plan is BS....
Unfortunately you cite one bad source - nothing about global warming in the Savory Institute mission statement.
The Savory Institute web site has articles by Alan Savory who "believes grasslands hold the potential to sequester enough atmospheric carbon dioxide to reverse climate change.". He is ignorant about climate change in at least one: With 100% certainty it is management causing global desertification and climate change and all the many symptoms.
It is 97% certain (as in the consensus of climate scientists) that increasing CO2from industry, transport, etc. is the cause of climate change .
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2020, 09:06 PM   #210
Red Baron Farms
Illuminator
 
Red Baron Farms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,966
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Unfortunately you cite one bad source - nothing about global warming in the Savory Institute mission statement.
The Savory Institute web site has articles by Alan Savory who "believes grasslands hold the potential to sequester enough atmospheric carbon dioxide to reverse climate change.". He is ignorant about climate change in at least one: With 100% certainty it is management causing global desertification and climate change and all the many symptoms.
It is 97% certain (as in the consensus of climate scientists) that increasing CO2from industry, transport, etc. is the cause of climate change .
You stated that incorrectly Reality Check. It is certain that increasing CO2 in the atmosphere is the cause of global warming, and the warming Earth is a cause of climate change.

But You and many others are focused on mainly the emissions side of the carbon cycle out of long term sinks, while Savory's work focuses mainly on the opposite side back into long term sinks.

It's a POV issue which is neither right nor wrong from both. Flip sides of the same coin.

In reality being cyclical we have the ability to balance both sides of the carbon cycle by both reducing fossil fuel emissions and at the same time sequestering that carbon back into long term sinks.

and the IPCC acknowledges this completely. In fact their Representative Concentration Pathway is not based on emissions but rather atmospheric concentration. It is a model of the balance between sources and sinks and the only one that actually shows a solution is RCP 2.6 which models BOTH a reduction of emissions and a moderate increase in sinks.

Savory supposes a somewhat greater increase in sinks and a somewhat lessor reduction in emissions, but the differences between the IPCC and Savory's work is far less dramatic than you seem to suppose. In fact since RCP 2.6 doesn't actually name the technology to be used as a sink, and leaves it open to many competing technologies, you could actually say that Savory has simply solved which technology works to make RCP 2.6 happen.
__________________
Scott
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison
Biome Carbon Cycle Management

Last edited by Red Baron Farms; 14th January 2020 at 09:36 PM.
Red Baron Farms is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2020, 11:36 PM   #211
Warmer1
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 454
There are three words constantly seen now in climate change news "Faster than expected".

New climate models which include clouds predict greater warming but there is still uncertianty.

https://www.newvision.co.ug/new_visi...is-goals-reach

"Right now, there is an enormously heated debate within the climate modelling community," said Earth system scientist Johan Rockstrom, director of the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research.

"You have 12 or 13 models showing sensitivity which is no longer 3C, but rather 5C or 6C with a doubling of CO2," he told AFP. "What is particularly worrying is that these are not the outliers."

Models from France, the US Department of Energy, Britain's Met Office and Canada show climate sensitivity of 4.9C, 5.3C, 5.5C and 5.6C respectively, Zelinka said.


The solution
In order to reduce warming hundreds of billions of tons of CO2 need to be captured, compressed and sequestered.

"In a new report by the European Academies’ Science Advisory Council (EASAC), senior scientists from across Europe have evaluated the potential contribution of negative emission technologies (NETs) to allow humanity to meet the Paris Agreement’s targets of avoiding dangerous climate change. They find that NETs have “limited realistic potential” to halt increases in the concentration of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere at the scale envisioned in the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) scenarios"

(And the IPCC scenarios have been too conservative)

https://easac.eu/publications/details/easac-net/

What really shocks me though is that other than nuclear war climate change is one of the biggest threats to humankind. The science is very clear.
If there is no major effort to address climate change the projected scenarios of what living conditions on Earth will be like by 2050 are horrific. Half of the world's reefs are dead, there are massive fires all over the planet, huge areas of kelp forest off of California just died, and the permafrost is melting 70 years ahead of schedule, a million species are at risk, and on and on.

University students that are around 20 years old will be around 50 years old by 2050 and they may have to live in a time of mass die off and will likely have to deal with the continued unstoppable degradation of their life support system. One would think that university students in the US would be taught about what is possibly the greatest threat to their future well being as well as the supporting science.

Here are the university students cheering for Donald Trump the climate denier, who's polices will help possibly wipe them off the face of the Earth. Trump's pulling out of the Paris climate accord allows other countries and excuse not to participate in a meaningful way.
It's unbelievable to watch university students that are totally scientifically illiterate cheer for the con man that is helping to wipe them off the planet - unreal!

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/14/polit...ers/index.html

This is historic footage of the ignorance of modern students at the university level, the failure of the US educational system and the silence of the media on the subject. It may as well be the Stone Age.

Last edited by Warmer1; 14th January 2020 at 11:46 PM.
Warmer1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th January 2020, 01:31 AM   #212
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 23,647
Originally Posted by Warmer1 View Post
This is historic footage of the ignorance of modern students at the university level, the failure of the US educational system and the silence of the media on the subject. It may as well be the Stone Age.
It's not just the USA.

Even in old backwoods New Zealand, I tried to get some traction on climate 35 years ago and got shot down in flames for my trouble. That was long before climate denial became a thing - it was just a belief the planet was big enough that humans couldn't damage it on a global scale outside of nuclear war.

Them pigeons have all come home to roost.

In the space of 20 years we've gone from 1-2 degrees warming to 4 looking to be on the low side of predictions.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th January 2020, 06:29 AM   #213
Steve001
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,610
Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Over the weekend I heard someone claim that the data shows that the climate is currently the most stable it's been in history. I just cannot comprehend how that conclusion can be reached. I guess a steady climb can be considered stable, in a sense.
They are correct to a small point. Where they aren't is stating this has been the most stable in the Earth's entire history.

Quote:
NASA
Earth’s climate has been stable for the past 12,000 years. This stability has been crucial for the development of modern civilization.
• A stable climate enabled humans to pursue agriculture, domesticate animals, settle down and develop culture.
https://news/1010/climate-change-and...civilizations/

Last edited by Steve001; 15th January 2020 at 06:52 AM.
Steve001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th January 2020, 01:16 PM   #214
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 26,422
Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
You stated that incorrectly Reality Check. It is certain that increasing CO2 in the atmosphere is the cause of global warming, and the warming Earth is a cause of climate change.

But You and many others are focused on mainly the emissions side of the carbon cycle out of long term sinks, while Savory's work focuses mainly on the opposite side back into long term sinks.
You are missing the deep ignorance of climate science stated by Savory in that article. Read what he actually wrote: With 100% certainty it is management causing global desertification and climate change and all the many symptoms. That is a clear belief that it is (grassland) management that causes climate change.
Another hint: That "Climate Change – Cause and Remedy" article does not have any mention of carbon dioxide as a cause!

What climate scientists have found is that reducing CO2 emissions is the best way to mitigate global warming. It is established technology that works.

Why Savory and his institute is a bad source:
  • Alan Savory is not a climate scientist.
    See his ignorance about the cause of global warming.
  • Alan Savory is touting his debated farm management system.
  • Savory "work" is only a 2013 TED talk titled '‘How to fight desertification and reverse climate change’, and documents on his web site.
  • When people examine his claims in published papers they see that they are invalid.
    For example:
    Nordborg, M. (2016). Holistic management – a critical review of Allan Savory's grazing method. Uppsala: SLU/EPOK – Centre for Organic Food & Farming & Chalmers. (PDF), described at Holistic management – a critical review of Allan Savory’s grazing method. Their calculation gives "Despite optimistic assumptions, 0.76 billion tonnes of C correspond to less than 10% of current annual emissions," or "less than 5% of the emissions of carbon since the beginning of the industrial revolution.".
Thus Savory is wrong. His goal of converting 1 billion hectares to use his management method will not reverse global warming as in his TED talk. Established improvements in management will get as good a result in carbon sequestration.

Last edited by Reality Check; 15th January 2020 at 01:25 PM.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th January 2020, 04:41 PM   #215
whatsthedreamnow
Student
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 30
Not to derail, but how would you recommend an attempt to convert deniers who believe that warming is part of the natural climate cycle? The "it's been warm before, it's been cold before" crowd.

Pointing out the near 100% consensus, introducing the basic concepts, offering non-Facebook articles, etc is not resonating.
whatsthedreamnow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th January 2020, 04:52 PM   #216
crescent
Illuminator
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,357
Originally Posted by whatsthedreamnow View Post
Not to derail, but how would you recommend an attempt to convert deniers who believe that warming is part of the natural climate cycle? The "it's been warm before, it's been cold before" crowd.

Pointing out the near 100% consensus, introducing the basic concepts, offering non-Facebook articles, etc is not resonating.
There is not much you can say. I try anyway.

One thing is to point out HOW we know the climate has always changed: Climate Scientists. They did the work, the math and science and all that.

Then, who tells us that the modern climate is changing much faster than natural cycles: Climate Scientists. The same ones who showed that the climate has always changed. Its the same people.

Alas, the argument never works. The disbelief of climate science is pretty well now religious in nature. Evidence is meaningless to them.
crescent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th January 2020, 04:57 PM   #217
foophil
Graduate Poster
 
foophil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 1,254
Originally Posted by whatsthedreamnow View Post
Not to derail, but how would you recommend an attempt to convert deniers who believe that warming is part of the natural climate cycle? The "it's been warm before, it's been cold before" crowd.

Pointing out the near 100% consensus, introducing the basic concepts, offering non-Facebook articles, etc is not resonating.
It depends on how far up the Crazy Creek they are. Most climate change deniers, the true ones who believe the earth is cooling, stable, or is in a natural cycle, won't really believe anything you try and show them. But if you do run into a rare one, someone you know personally who is willing to actually listen to you rather than shout you down with debunked nonsense, they can be pointed to the website https://skepticalscience.com/. It even has the word Skeptical in it!

The site contains a Q&A if you will of common (and uncommon) questions like that. The answers all link in overwhelming detail to many, many studies along with a brief (and sometimes not so brief) write up summarizing those studies.

Here's a direct link answering your question:

https://skepticalscience.com/global-...ural-cycle.htm

The short answer is it's not a natural cycle, but that we should in fact be cooling at this point.

Quote:
For example, we are warming far too fast to be coming out of the last ice age, and the Milankovitch cycles that drive glaciation show that we should be, in fact, very slowly going into a new ice age (but anthropogenic warming is virtually certain to offset that influence).
foophil is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th January 2020, 06:25 PM   #218
Red Baron Farms
Illuminator
 
Red Baron Farms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,966
Originally Posted by whatsthedreamnow View Post
Not to derail, but how would you recommend an attempt to convert deniers who believe that warming is part of the natural climate cycle? The "it's been warm before, it's been cold before" crowd.

Pointing out the near 100% consensus, introducing the basic concepts, offering non-Facebook articles, etc is not resonating.
The basic point is that it should be cooling, but because there is too much CO2, it is warming instead.
__________________
Scott
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison
Biome Carbon Cycle Management
Red Baron Farms is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th January 2020, 06:34 PM   #219
Red Baron Farms
Illuminator
 
Red Baron Farms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,966
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
You are missing the deep ignorance of climate science stated by Savory in that article. Read what he actually wrote: With 100% certainty it is management causing global desertification and climate change and all the many symptoms. That is a clear belief that it is (grassland) management that causes climate change.
Another hint: That "Climate Change – Cause and Remedy" article does not have any mention of carbon dioxide as a cause!

What climate scientists have found is that reducing CO2 emissions is the best way to mitigate global warming. It is established technology that works.

Why Savory and his institute is a bad source:
  • Alan Savory is not a climate scientist.
    See his ignorance about the cause of global warming.
  • Alan Savory is touting his debated farm management system.
  • Savory "work" is only a 2013 TED talk titled '‘How to fight desertification and reverse climate change’, and documents on his web site.
  • When people examine his claims in published papers they see that they are invalid.
    For example:
    Nordborg, M. (2016). Holistic management – a critical review of Allan Savory's grazing method. Uppsala: SLU/EPOK – Centre for Organic Food & Farming & Chalmers. (PDF), described at Holistic management – a critical review of Allan Savory’s grazing method. Their calculation gives "Despite optimistic assumptions, 0.76 billion tonnes of C correspond to less than 10% of current annual emissions," or "less than 5% of the emissions of carbon since the beginning of the industrial revolution.".
Thus Savory is wrong. His goal of converting 1 billion hectares to use his management method will not reverse global warming as in his TED talk. Established improvements in management will get as good a result in carbon sequestration.
Wrong on almost every point including you substituting (grasslands) into the quote. That's your words, not his. Holistic management is not only about grasslands.
Further, it is those other references that are debunked by the evidence, not Savory.
Finally you have tried for many years now to pretend we can't sequester carbon in the soil at those rates, and yet over and over again LOTS of others are also sequestering carbon at those rates and even higher. So stop with the denialism and follow the evidence, or just piss off. Because I am tired of restating all this 100's of times for you.

Meanwhile the rest of the world is hard at solutions while you tell your silly tales.

The latest in a long line? The indigo terraton initiative.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
Scott
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison
Biome Carbon Cycle Management
Red Baron Farms is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th January 2020, 07:56 PM   #220
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 26,422
Exclamation Alan Savory's article is ignorant about the cause of global warming

Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Wrong on almost every point...
It is still correct that Alan Savory's article is ignorant about the cause of global warming. We know it is CO2 primarily from industry and transport, not any kind of farm management.
It is still correct that Savory and his institute is a bad source on climate science.

I posted this science in the 'Holistic Grazing' thread on 19 March 2019.
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
The Skeptical Science article referenced in the rebuttal is Holistic Management can reverse Climate Change
Quote:
What the science says...
Multiple scientific studies from climate scientists and agricultural specialists show little or no significant gain in carbon sequestration on soils managed holistically to those with other grazing techniques. Even under the most favourable conditions, Holistic Management (HM) alone can only slow climate change by a small percentage, over a limited period, and certainly cannot reverse climate change.

Climate Myth...
Holistic Management can reverse Climate Change
“Holistic management as a planned grazing strategy is able to reverse desertification and sequester atmospheric carbon dioxide into soil, reducing atmospheric carbon dioxide levels to pre-industrial levels in a period of forty years.” (Allan Savory, 2014)
I have been citing the scientific literature on carbon sequestration in soils to you and have cited a source yet again with many references yet again.
Nordborg, M. (2016). Holistic management – a critical review of Allan Savory's grazing method. Uppsala: SLU/EPOK – Centre for Organic Food & Farming & Chalmers. (PDF), described at Holistic management – a critical review of Allan Savory’s grazing method.
The sequestration section is clear. Nordborg states with some generous assumptions, e.g. that plant growth measured as Net Primary Productivity doubles after HM is introduced, and gets a sequestration rate 18 times less than Savory's value.

List the LOTS of published papers reporting "sequestering carbon at those rates and even higher" and what are "those rates"?

Last edited by Reality Check; 15th January 2020 at 08:31 PM.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th January 2020, 09:47 PM   #221
Red Baron Farms
Illuminator
 
Red Baron Farms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,966
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
It is still correct that Alan Savory's article is ignorant about the cause of global warming. We know it is CO2 primarily from industry and transport, not any kind of farm management.
It is still correct that Savory and his institute is a bad source on climate science.

I have spent years citing the scientific literature on carbon sequestration in soils to you and have cited a source yet again with many references yet again.
Nordborg, M. (2016). Holistic management – a critical review of Allan Savory's grazing method. Uppsala: SLU/EPOK – Centre for Organic Food & Farming & Chalmers. (PDF), described at Holistic management – a critical review of Allan Savory’s grazing method.

List the LOTS of published papers reporting "sequestering carbon at those rates and even higher" and what are "those rates"?
Read your own sources Reality Check
"The total carbon storage potential in pastures does not exceed 0.8 tonnes of C per ha and year, or 27 billion tonnes of C globally, according
to an estimate in this report based on very optimistic assumptions"


It is based on an estimate and an assumption. Get this through your thick skull. I have repeated this over and over. These studies made valid hypotheses based on estimates and assumptions, not on measurements. That means if I find that there actually are examples of sequestration rates higher than that, these estimates and assumptions forming a hypothesis, no matter how much you want it to be true, it is falsified.

Now I gave you the case studies from Dr Kristine Jones, and she has MEASURED case studies AVERAGING 5-20 tonnes CO2e/ha/yr.

In science MEASURED CASE STUDIES (with controls too) always trump estimates and assumptions.... every time.

Then of course we have Teague's published work which I also gave you multiple times with MEASURED CASE STUDIES that also AVERAGE 11 tonnes CO2e/ha/yr

Low and behold an independant scientist confirming Savory's PROOF of CONCEPT of MEASURED CO2 sequestration is also confirmed twice removed and completely independent of BOTH Jones and Savory.

Now we have three cases where MEASUREMENTS have exceeded the assumed estimates from your study. OOPS now we have not only certainty that at least under certain conditions it can be done, we also can show it on 3 continents and 3 sets of different conditions...

At this point it becomes clear the vast majority of the actual evidence from people in the field is falsifying a clearly biased set of assumptions and estimates. No matter how "generous" they claim the estimates to be, they are less than 1/2 the LOW end of the actual measured sequestration rates found in the field....

Now since you have been confused by this before ...... a really simple analogy would be that proving a model T ford can only average 15 miles an hour and breaks down at least 1 time a month on average is absolutely useless information in trying to make estimated assumptions on how fast and reliable a 2020 ford mustang might be. You just can't really get good data from the model T and use estimates and assumptions to find out either. Instead you need to measure the Mustang! Collect data from there.... In a similar way both Jones and Teague collected data from real crop farmers and ranchers in the field.... with controls..... and their case studies FALSIFY your junk science of inaccurate assumptions and estimates. PERIOD

You are just as bad as any denier found here are ISF, although you pretend to be concerned about AGW and pretend to agree it is real, you are in just as bad a state of denial as anyone spouting Christy nonsense. You have used fake experts, logical fallacies, impossible expectations, and cherry picking in an attempt to deny delay hoping for some unclear reason to halt any action being taken. That is just as bad as denying any action needs to be taken, since the end result is exactly the same.

I have posted those three above, the proof of concept and the two other sources of case studies confirming Savory's claims so many times, I simply and not willing any more to play your silly games. You know them, go get them your damn self.

However, people who are actually using the methods are repeating the results in many cases......
Mitigating livestock greenhouse gas balance
through carbon sequestration in grasslands


This time between 7.3 and 7.9 tonnes CO2e/ha/yr again well within the 5-20 tonnes CO2e Jones MEASURED.

and more:
Can Soil Microbes Slow Climate Change?


" Johnson reported a net annual increase of almost 11 metric tons of soil carbon per hectare on his cropland."


Converted to CO2e that is ~ 40 tonnes CO2e/ha/yr. About double the average reported by Jones and 4x what was reported by Teague, but nearly the same as the high outliers. Jones also took the raw results and measured that only 78% was stable humic polymers and I don't see where or if Johnson did that.

However, It shows the biophysical capacity of microorganisms in the soil to sequester high rates of carbon. Even higher than Savory claims and completely destroying the junk science assumptions and estimates baloney you continue to rest your hat on.

Then we have yet another:
Impacts of soil carbon sequestration on life cycle greenhouse gas emissions in Midwestern USA beef finishing systems

The paper studies a few systems, but the one most closely resembling what Savory is discussing actually sequesters 13.1753 tonnes CO2e/ha/yr, so once again it is confirmed right in that 5-20 tonnes CO2e /ha/yr Jones found decades ago.

There is approximately 3.5 billion ha of grazing land already. approximately 80% of it is currently over grazed or under grazed.

10 tonnes CO2e/ha/yr x 3.5 billion = 35 billion tonnes CO2e/yr

Global emissions are in that range as in 2018, global fossil CO2 emissions totaled 36.6 billion tons.

That is not counting restoring desertified land as Savory advises, nor does it count restoring farmland currently being used unwisely for commodity crops to fill a highly wasteful and unsustainable industrialized commodity system.

It’s Time to Rethink America’s Corn System

So again, stop trying to use falsified ESTIMATES and ASSUMPTIONS to claim Savory's work is debunked.

We all know Nordborg doesn't agree with Savory, but you got the wrong side being debunked man. Follow the actual evidence, not some silly highly biased assumptions.

As for your OWN strawman. It is easily shown to be a false construction on YOUR part by simply actually reading Savory's plan instead of quoting him out of context and even putting extra words in his mouth to pretend he thinks it is only farms. shesh...that's so ridiculous it makes me mad. Here is the actual plan

Quote:
A Two-Path Strategy is Essential for Combating Combat Climate Change

1) High Technology Path. This path, based on mainstream reductionist science, is urgent and vital to the development of alternative energy sources to reduce or halt future emissions.
2) Low Technology Path. This path based on the emerging relationship science or holistic world view is vital for resolving the problem of grassland biomass burning, desertification and the safe storage of CO2, (legacy load) of heat trapping gases that already exist in the atmosphere.
Full plan here:
A Global Strategy for Addressing Global Climate Change
by Allan Savory

So I am going to say it yet again, put up or shut up, your denialist attempts to prevent any action being taken to fix global warming is both noted and rejected out of hand.
__________________
Scott
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison
Biome Carbon Cycle Management

Last edited by Red Baron Farms; 15th January 2020 at 10:08 PM.
Red Baron Farms is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th January 2020, 10:15 PM   #222
Red Baron Farms
Illuminator
 
Red Baron Farms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,966
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
The problem with any plan is that as soon as a plan is put forward, it is immediately attacked by the deniers. That includes a lot of disinformation about the plan. The plan becomes the thing to plan against.
I must agree there 100% See the above few posts for evidence even here at ISF that exact thing repeatedly happens!

It's even worse out there "in the real world".
__________________
Scott
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison
Biome Carbon Cycle Management
Red Baron Farms is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th January 2020, 11:08 PM   #223
Lukraak_Sisser
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,557
Originally Posted by whatsthedreamnow View Post
Not to derail, but how would you recommend an attempt to convert deniers who believe that warming is part of the natural climate cycle? The "it's been warm before, it's been cold before" crowd.

Pointing out the near 100% consensus, introducing the basic concepts, offering non-Facebook articles, etc is not resonating.
I guess it depends on where you live.
Once the US midwest starts turning into a desert I suspect the people there will be start being convinced.
Australia is getting a bit of a hint now.
Here in the Netherlands I guess once we start losing land we'll be convinced etc.
Lukraak_Sisser is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th January 2020, 11:44 PM   #224
Pixel42
SchrŲdinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 11,533
Originally Posted by whatsthedreamnow View Post
Not to derail, but how would you recommend an attempt to convert deniers who believe that warming is part of the natural climate cycle? The "it's been warm before, it's been cold before" crowd.

Pointing out the near 100% consensus, introducing the basic concepts, offering non-Facebook articles, etc is not resonating.
An analogy might be helpful. For example, forest fires have always happened - lightning causes them - but that doesn't stop them also being started by idiots fooling around with matches. If a fire starts in a forest where there hasn't been any lightning in months, and where a bunch of idiots were seen fooling around with matches at the exact time and place it started, they wouldn't just shrug and "forest fires have always happened" would they? They would hold the idiots responsible for the consequent loss of life and property.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2020, 01:11 PM   #225
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 26,422
Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Read your own sources Reality Check...
Derails into a bit idiocy about the word estimate in a scientific paper. If assumptions and estimates invalidates science then most of science is wrong! If assumptions and estimates invalidates science then Savory's assumptions and estimates make him wrong !
Nordborg, M. (2016) makes generous assumptions and calculates an estimate that debunks Savory's idea that his HMtm can reverse global warming.

Alan Savory's article is ignorant about the cause of global warming (it is CO2 not his fantasy of farm management).
A farmer/ecologist and his agricultural institute is a bad source of climate science and there is his obvious ignorance and no published papers!
Savory's idea is debunked in a Skeptical Sceince climate myth article which cites many papers including Nordborg, M. (2016).
RealClimate (climate scientists!) comment on his TED talk: Cows, Carbon and the Anthropocene: Commentary on Savory TED Video. Savory's claim of retuning to pre-industrial levels requires an estimated 240 Petagrams (Pg) of carbon in the atmosphere to be removed (the estimated carbon in vegetation is around 450 Pg). Then there is the removal of an estimated 8 Pg of carbon emitted by us in 2014 each year which increases.

The rest of the post is mostly unsupported assertions and some errors. You cited 1 paper by Dr Christine Jones with no "MEASURED case studies AVERAGING 5-20 tonnes CO2e/ha/yr"!.
Liquid carbon pathway unrecognised by Dr Christine Jones. As I pointed out that is a close to an opinion piece by Dr. Christine Jones in the now defunct Australian Farm Journal. As you knew back in March 2019, she states with no sources
Quote:
Under appropriate conditions, 30-40% of the carbon fixed in green leaves can be transferred to soil and rapidly humified, resulting in rates of soil carbon sequestration in the order of 5-20 tonnes of CO2 per hectare per year.
You list only the papers that show an increased soil organic carbon content on ranches using HM compared to other ranches. Nordborg, M. (2016) looks at the entire body of evidence for HM which shows that HM is not significantly better.

P24.40: Mitigating livestock greenhouse gas balance through carbon sequestration in grasslands (PDF) is a poster presented at a conference. It states the well known science that carbon sequestration through farming (in grasslands here) has the potential to mitigate global warming. Savory's debunked idea is reversal of global warming.

Last edited by Reality Check; 16th January 2020 at 02:02 PM.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2020, 01:45 PM   #226
lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 10,336
Originally Posted by fritznien View Post
Thats all well and good but 3 or 5 C, but what is the plan?
Does anyone have a workable plan?
Person 1: I know itís not healthy to weight 800 lbs, but no one can tell me what I can do about it.
Person 2: Eat less and exercise more
Person 1: If only someone had a plan!
Person 2: Ö
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2020, 01:51 PM   #227
lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 10,336
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
We (as in overall civilization) will wait until the last minute when the problem gets so big we can't ignore, the smart people we (again as overall civilization) have been ignoring will pull a miracle out of their butts to fix it and then we (see above) will go "See? No big big deal, we were all worried sick about nothing."
One of the problems with climate change is that by the time we see the consequences itís far too late to do anything about them. The scale of the ToE energy imbalance is almost to massive to comprehend. It dwarfs anything we are familiar with. Trying to deal with the extra energy after the fact would be like trying to drain an Olympic swimming pool with a teaspoon.
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2020, 02:08 PM   #228
lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 10,336
Originally Posted by whatsthedreamnow View Post
Not to derail, but how would you recommend an attempt to convert deniers who believe that warming is part of the natural climate cycle? The "it's been warm before, it's been cold before" crowd.

Pointing out the near 100% consensus, introducing the basic concepts, offering non-Facebook articles, etc is not resonating.
The right wing bubble no longer cares about facts. When people have already decided facts won’t change their beliefs convincing them of anything rational is basically impossible. Here are a couple fact you can try though.

The last time temperatures were more than 1 Deg C warmer than current norms was 3-5 million years ago before there were any humans on the planet.
The last time temperatures warmed as rapid they are doing right now was 65 million years ago when the dinosaurs died out.

Normal warming, that causes mile thick ice sheets to melt and become forest and grassland looks like this:
https://xkcd.com/1732/
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2020, 08:58 PM   #229
Red Baron Farms
Illuminator
 
Red Baron Farms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,966
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Derails into a bit idiocy about the word estimate in a scientific paper. If assumptions and estimates invalidates science then most of science is wrong! If assumptions and estimates invalidates science then Savory's assumptions and estimates make him wrong !
Nordborg, M. (2016) makes generous assumptions and calculates an estimate that debunks Savory's idea that his HMtm can reverse global warming.

Alan Savory's article is ignorant about the cause of global warming (it is CO2 not his fantasy of farm management).
A farmer/ecologist and his agricultural institute is a bad source of climate science and there is his obvious ignorance and no published papers!
Savory's idea is debunked in a Skeptical Sceince climate myth article which cites many papers including Nordborg, M. (2016).
RealClimate (climate scientists!) comment on his TED talk: Cows, Carbon and the Anthropocene: Commentary on Savory TED Video. Savory's claim of retuning to pre-industrial levels requires an estimated 240 Petagrams (Pg) of carbon in the atmosphere to be removed (the estimated carbon in vegetation is around 450 Pg). Then there is the removal of an estimated 8 Pg of carbon emitted by us in 2014 each year which increases.

The rest of the post is mostly unsupported assertions and some errors. You cited 1 paper by Dr Christine Jones with no "MEASURED case studies AVERAGING 5-20 tonnes CO2e/ha/yr"!.
Liquid carbon pathway unrecognised by Dr Christine Jones. As I pointed out that is a close to an opinion piece by Dr. Christine Jones in the now defunct Australian Farm Journal. As you knew back in March 2019, she states with no sources


You list only the papers that show an increased soil organic carbon content on ranches using HM compared to other ranches. Nordborg, M. (2016) looks at the entire body of evidence for HM which shows that HM is not significantly better.

P24.40: Mitigating livestock greenhouse gas balance through carbon sequestration in grasslands (PDF) is a poster presented at a conference. It states the well known science that carbon sequestration through farming (in grasslands here) has the potential to mitigate global warming. Savory's debunked idea is reversal of global warming.
More strawmen? Anyone can burn down a strawman Reality Check, but you are just telling stories.

"Mitigating livestock greenhouse gas balance through carbon sequestration in grasslands "
Yep that's true. That's one side of the carbon cycle.

"Savory's debunkedHolistic management idea is reversal of global warming." By also reducing emissions by using new technology in Nuclear, solar, wind etc...

Please try to keep up. He is saying that the only solution requires fixing BOTH sides of the carbon cycle. This is the holistic view. You reduce emissions and you increase sequestration.

That is in general what RCP 2.6 shows too.

As for your junk science, forget it. It is falsified. We can and have repeatedly done far better than Nordborg, M. (2016) claims is possible. Nordborg is simply wrong, and going down the line why nordborg is wrong is just a red herring meant to obfuscate. But any skeptic with critical thinking skills should be easily capable of shooting down Nordborg with relative ease even those without agricultural backgrounds. That's how bad the junk science is! It makes self supporting assumptions then conclusions based off those same.

The paper admits for example:
"For ’improved grazing‘, Conant et al. (2010) found
an average carbon sequestration rate of 0.35 tonnes of C per ha and year, based on 45 data points
(Table 4.3). This is seven times lower than the 2.5
tonnes of C per ha and year reported by the Savory Institute "

So Conant who is simply using "improved grazing" is getting results 7 times smaller than Savory's "Holistic managed planned grazing".

But then says later, "Based on
this review, holistic grazing could be an example
of good grazing management, but nothing suggests that it is better than other well-managed grazing methods. "


So seven times greater sequestration rate of carbon in the soil in no way suggests it is better?

No what that paper did was simply throw out all the high numbers and declare them outliers. Here is the quote:
"Some measures identified in the review by Conant
et al. (2001) resulted in carbon sequestration rates
in the same order of magnitude as reported by the
Savory Institute, e.g. 3 tonnes of C per ha and year
as a results of improved grass species (Table 4.3).
Such high sequestration rates should be considered maximum values that can be achieved in fertile
soils with favorable climate conditions, and not average values that are representative for a variety of
soil and climate conditions."

Oh really? Is that what we should think? We shouldn't investigate how and why the better results and figure out how to repeat them as Savory has done for the last 30-50 years? That would be horrible. Yes that's sarcasm at how utterly silly the Nordstom paper is. Ridiculous really.

Meanwhile the rest of the soil scientists at the USDA and many other places have been diligently investigating the biophysical causation for the "outliers" Conant occasionally found and the AVERAGES Savory, Jones, Teague, Johnson etc found. And it is NOT due to biomass.

That's not even how the carbon gets sequestered. This is why Conant missed it. He made assumptions based on increased biomass, instead of measuring the completely unknown (at that time) LCP liquid carbon pathway. And what regenerative farmers are doing is converting their highly degraded soils INTO fertile soils..... where of course they sequester those higher rates. It's not hard for a critical thinker to figure out Conant's mistake. However, Conant is at least a real scientist willing to admit measured results. Whereas Nordbog pretends they never happened and couldn't possibly happen again, even when they have been demonstrably repeated.. BS Sure if you throw out all his results and pretend they never happened, of course you can also pretend it is impossible to do too. But that's not where the evidence leads.
__________________
Scott
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison
Biome Carbon Cycle Management

Last edited by Red Baron Farms; 16th January 2020 at 09:11 PM.
Red Baron Farms is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2020, 08:10 AM   #230
Armitage72
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 3,866
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
One thing is to point out HOW we know the climate has always changed: Climate Scientists. They did the work, the math and science and all that.

I've seen people seriously claim that climate scientists are deliberately hoaxing climate change so they can get rich collecting research grant money to study it. This shows a disturbing lack of understanding of both science and research grants.
Armitage72 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2020, 11:05 AM   #231
Mr Clingford
Master Poster
 
Mr Clingford's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,044
Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
I've seen people seriously claim that climate scientists are deliberately hoaxing climate change so they can get rich collecting research grant money to study it. This shows a disturbing lack of understanding of both science and research grants.
Indeed. Potholer did a vid recently exploring exactly this point.
__________________
God is my copilot.

But we crashed into a mountain and I had to eat him.
Mr Clingford is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2020, 12:27 PM   #232
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 41,933
Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Person 1: I know itís not healthy to weight 800 lbs, but no one can tell me what I can do about it.
Person 2: Eat less and exercise more
Person 1: If only someone had a plan!
Person 2: Ö
Person 1: I know itís not healthy to weight 800 lbs, but no one can tell me what I can do about it.
Person 2: Stop eating, start running. Ten miles a day. Begin immediately.
Person 1: If I do that, I will destroy my knees and probably have a heart attack. If I'm lucky, I'll live long enough to starve to death. Do you have a better plan?
Person 2: So you're denying that you need to lose some weight?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2020, 12:38 PM   #233
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 23,647
Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
I've seen people seriously claim that climate scientists are deliberately hoaxing climate change so they can get rich collecting research grant money to study it. This shows a disturbing lack of understanding of both science and research grants.
Yes, that's ridiculously common one, and stolen straight out of antivax play books.

There's also a campaign to screech about how much money people are making from carbon credits and green energy grants, while completely ignoring the trillions people are making from destroying the planet.

The Age of Aquarius left us not with enlightenment, but minds attuned to illogic and unreason.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2020, 03:31 PM   #234
whatsthedreamnow
Student
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 30
Thanks all for the responses. I'll report back with results.
whatsthedreamnow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2020, 03:31 AM   #235
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,207
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I'm talking about the price to *consumers*, not the price of the carbon credit for companies. Carbon credits would be issued, not sold.



Not sure if you're being intentionally obtuse or not.
Sorry mate but you might have to explain to me how that works.

Call me Mr thicky but here companies pay dudes with a few trees to still spew out the same crap. And just pass it on to the customer.

If you know a different version I am all ears.
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2020, 03:55 AM   #236
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 13,486
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Sorry mate but you might have to explain to me how that works.

Call me Mr thicky but here companies pay dudes with a few trees to still spew out the same crap. And just pass it on to the customer.

If you know a different version I am all ears.
Let's say I've got a company whose offices are poorly insulated. I've looked at the costs of rennovating and installing better insulation, but given the cost of heating, it won't pay off in a reasonable amount of time, so I don't spend that money.

Then some form of carbon tax is implemented. Now the heating cost goes up, but the renovation cost remains basically the same. Sure, I could just pay the higher heating cost and pass that on to my customers. But I also have the option of doing the renovations, which will pay off for me in a shorter period of time and are potentially an economical choice in this new environment.

When there are no options to choose from, you are probably right that carbon tax or carbon credits won't change things, and costs will just be passed on to consumers. But when there are other, lower carbon, options that were not initially chosen because of, for instance, upfront costs, that tax can make those other options the more economical choice.

In my example the cost over the long term could actually go down, which would suggest that cost to consumers wouldn't be expected to go up at all.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2020, 04:14 AM   #237
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,207
Fair call but personally think a tax cut carrot to turn solar and find other alternatives beats the stick that will just end up hitting consumers.
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2020, 08:26 AM   #238
BrooklynBaby
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,081
A little info for climate nuts:

"In fact, extreme weather has occurred with monotonous regularity for millions of years. Below is an infinitesimal sampling of the endless multitude of catastrophic weather events in Earthís past, many of which occurred long before the Industrial Revolution.

● The Great Hurricane of 1780 killed 30,000 people in the Caribbean.

● Epic dust storms in the 1930s caused catastrophic ecological damage to the Central Plains of the U.S. and Canada.

● Massive flooding that hit Tokyo, Japan, in 1910 destroyed more than 400,000 homes.

● Consecutive years of extreme weather took the lives of one-third of the population during the Russian Famine of 1601-1603.

● In 1927, weeks of heavy rains in Mississippi caused flooding that covered 27,000 square miles, leaving entire towns and surrounding countryside submerged up to a depth of 30 feet.

● A catastrophic hurricane that hit sparsely populated Sea Island, Georgia in 1893 killed 2,000 people.

● The Blizzard of 1888 was so extreme that snow and ice covered the entire northeastern U.S., from Maine to the Chesapeake Bay.

● On Sept. 8, 1900, a Cat-4 hurricane obliterated the island of Galveston, Texas, killing an estimated 10,000 residents.

● In 1889, heavy rains that lasted for days caused massive flooding in Jamestown, PA, killing 2,200.

● Caused by a protracted drought, the Bengal Famine of 1770 killed 10 million people in South Asia.

● And, for those who believe in the Bible, Genesis 7:12 reports that rain fell upon the earth for 40 days and 40 nights, an extreme weather event by any definition."

https://www.americanthinker.com/arti..._to_know_.html
BrooklynBaby is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2020, 08:36 AM   #239
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 7,270
???
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2020, 08:40 AM   #240
Cosmic Yak
Illuminator
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 3,182
Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
A little info for climate nuts:

"In fact, extreme weather has occurred with monotonous regularity for millions of years. Below is an infinitesimal sampling of the endless multitude of catastrophic weather events in Earthís past, many of which occurred long before the Industrial Revolution.

● The Great Hurricane of 1780 killed 30,000 people in the Caribbean.

● Epic dust storms in the 1930s caused catastrophic ecological damage to the Central Plains of the U.S. and Canada.

● Massive flooding that hit Tokyo, Japan, in 1910 destroyed more than 400,000 homes.

● Consecutive years of extreme weather took the lives of one-third of the population during the Russian Famine of 1601-1603.

● In 1927, weeks of heavy rains in Mississippi caused flooding that covered 27,000 square miles, leaving entire towns and surrounding countryside submerged up to a depth of 30 feet.

● A catastrophic hurricane that hit sparsely populated Sea Island, Georgia in 1893 killed 2,000 people.

● The Blizzard of 1888 was so extreme that snow and ice covered the entire northeastern U.S., from Maine to the Chesapeake Bay.

● On Sept. 8, 1900, a Cat-4 hurricane obliterated the island of Galveston, Texas, killing an estimated 10,000 residents.

● In 1889, heavy rains that lasted for days caused massive flooding in Jamestown, PA, killing 2,200.

● Caused by a protracted drought, the Bengal Famine of 1770 killed 10 million people in South Asia.

● And, for those who believe in the Bible, Genesis 7:12 reports that rain fell upon the earth for 40 days and 40 nights, an extreme weather event by any definition."

https://www.americanthinker.com/arti..._to_know_.html
Looks like someone's going to have to explain the difference between 'climate' and 'weather'.
Again.
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:54 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.