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Old 30th January 2020, 02:58 PM   #1
Skeptical Greg
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The Dangers of Fruits And Vegetables

A study to examine the antioxidant properties of green tea extract had some surprising results..

Green tea extract only affects markers of oxidative status postprandially: lasting antioxidant effect of flavonoid-free diet.

There was a strictly controlled diet with no fruits or vegetables to deplete flavonoids and catechins, that are present in fruits and vegetables and touted for their antioxidant properties.
This was so the effect of the GTE as an antioxidant could be isolated..

Quote:
Since no long-term effects of GTE were observed, the study essentially served as a fruit and vegetables depletion study. The overall effect of the 10-week period without dietary fruits and vegetables was a decrease in oxidative damage to DNA, blood proteins, and plasma lipids, concomitantly with marked changes in antioxidative defence.
This study was made in 2002.

Seems like no one was in a big hurry to follow up on this.
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Old 30th January 2020, 03:58 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
A study to examine the antioxidant properties of green tea extract had some surprising results..

Green tea extract only affects markers of oxidative status postprandially: lasting antioxidant effect of flavonoid-free diet.

There was a strictly controlled diet with no fruits or vegetables to deplete flavonoids and catechins, that are present in fruits and vegetables and touted for their antioxidant properties.
This was so the effect of the GTE as an antioxidant could be isolated..



This study was made in 2002.

Seems like no one was in a big hurry to follow up on this.
If it is any consolation to you, I haven't eaten any fruits or vegetables since 2002.

But recent studies also say that "balanced diet" does no have to mean everyday. Some micronutrients are stored, re-used, recycled. I';m just wondering if 10 weeks was a long enough wash-out?

But too, no other study has ever shown any advantage of anti-oxidents to humans.
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Old 30th January 2020, 04:19 PM   #3
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If micronutrients in vegetables are so important to humans, why do so many of them taste awful unless you alter them with cooking and/or adding a lot of fatty stuff like cheese and oily salad dressings, which the current health establishment says is a no - no..

And yes, I know, people get used to and even claim to like, the taste of raw kale and such, but it is an acquired taste, not a natural one.

Do you think maybe there is a valid, scientific reason why most children are not attracted to cruciferous and leafy green vegetables?
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Old 30th January 2020, 06:27 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
If micronutrients in vegetables are so important to humans, why do so many of them taste awful unless you alter them with cooking and/or adding a lot of fatty stuff like cheese and oily salad dressings, which the current health establishment says is a no - no..

And yes, I know, people get used to and even claim to like, the taste of raw kale and such, but it is an acquired taste, not a natural one.

Do you think maybe there is a valid, scientific reason why most children are not attracted to cruciferous and leafy green vegetables?
and lima beans.

Wheeel, I guess it could be that eating veggies is OK, if you can't catch any animals.

Now where is that thread about "Eat meat, die of heart disease, eat veggies die of stroke..." ?

But then why did Gawd give us The Garden of Eden instead of putting Adam & Eve on the Ranch of Wyoming? Eat not the fruit of the sagebrush of good and evil?

oooh, bigger thought: No matter where the Tree of Knowledge was, it was a tree. With fruit. Them old time Hebes knew what was what.
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Old 30th January 2020, 11:58 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Do you think maybe there is a valid, scientific reason why most children are not attracted to cruciferous and leafy green vegetables?
citation?

The reason I ask is because I am fairly sure this is a nurture, not nature issue.
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Old 31st January 2020, 07:02 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
citation?

The reason I ask is because I am fairly sure this is a nurture, not nature issue.
My hypothesis is that it is nature, not nurture.

The classic example of a leafy green vegetable rejected by children is spinach. This one and others have a bitter flavor. In nature (think plants), bitterness is associated with toxins. Young children naturally put everything in their mouth but they also naturally spit out anything that is bitter. That instinctual behavior would save lives in a forager lifestyle.

My hypothesis should be testable. Children should not be expected to reject vegetables that do not have a bitter flavor.
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Old 31st January 2020, 09:27 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
My hypothesis is that it is nature, not nurture.

The classic example of a leafy green vegetable rejected by children is spinach. This one and others have a bitter flavor. In nature (think plants), bitterness is associated with toxins. Young children naturally put everything in their mouth but they also naturally spit out anything that is bitter. That instinctual behavior would save lives in a forager lifestyle.

My hypothesis should be testable. Children should not be expected to reject vegetables that do not have a bitter flavor.
And yet as a child my whole family loved vegetables, and I remember my little brother finishing off a whole bowl of brussels sprouts one night when our special treat was not appreciated by our guests.... He was 2 and basically almost no teeth. Mom left him at the table in his high chair with the pyrex bowl in front of him as we all went to watch TV.

Later Mom said, Oops forgot about my brother and he hasn't made a sound..so we went to check up on him as he finished off the last of them! Without teeth he managed to gum them all down.

BUT that was how my whole family ate all the time. Vegetables always and occasionally a little meat usually as flavor in a soup or something and only main course beef 1 time a week. Usually a roast or a meatloaf roasted with potatoes onions and carrots.

Some would call that nurture, but how to explain it in a small child barely even starting semi-solid foods and still mostly on the bottle?

So this is evidence, albeit anecdotal, that our nature is fully capable to enjoy veggies as well, but we learn to eat what our parents put in front of us.
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Old 31st January 2020, 11:30 AM   #8
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Everyone that eats, eventually dies.
Therefor eating food kills you.
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Old 31st January 2020, 12:21 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Some would call that nurture, but how to explain it in a small child barely even starting semi-solid foods and still mostly on the bottle?

So this is evidence, albeit anecdotal, that our nature is fully capable to enjoy veggies as well, but we learn to eat what our parents put in front of us.
There are children who don't have a problem with bitter vegetables. I was one of them. But it is quite common if not predominant. In fact, you can buy special topical liquids to prevent children from mouthing or chewing things. The liquid is very bitter but is non-toxic. That would never work if the deterrent flavor was sweet or savory.

My hypothesis is that natural selection caused an instinctual aversion to bitter flavor because that commonly identifies poisonous plants. We are not the only animal that has an instinctual aversion to bitter flavor and it is primarily because of toxic plants.

The special problem with offspring is that mother can't protect them at every moment. They crawl away and immediately start putting things in their mouth without any knowledge of what could sicken or kill them. Everything goes in for a taste. So to have an instinct to spit out bitter things was a lifesaver.

Your anecdotal observation is true and there could be two or more explanations. Firstly, anything that your mother hands you to eat is not poisonous. That behavior would have been eliminated by natural selection. It still doesn't mean that the offspring will accept it though and they may spit it out. It would remain as a useful instinct in the event that somebody other than the mother hands the child a toxic leaf as a "food gift".

Also this instinct may have been partially lost over great time.
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Old 31st January 2020, 01:04 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by marting View Post
Everyone that eats, eventually dies.
Therefor eating food kills you.
But what kind is the slowest acting?
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Old 31st January 2020, 01:17 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
If micronutrients in vegetables are so important to humans, why do so many of them taste awful unless you alter them with cooking and/or adding a lot of fatty stuff like cheese and oily salad dressings, which the current health establishment says is a no - no..
Probably because throughout 99% of human evolutionary history humans had to get the food that gives the most energy, quickly.
And foot has always been rare.
So the natural taste prefers meat and/or sweet stuff.
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Old 31st January 2020, 01:24 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by carlosy View Post
And foot has always been rare.
That's the sole reason why I feel like a heel for eating well-done feet.
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Old 31st January 2020, 02:54 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
And yet as a child my whole family loved vegetables, and I remember my little brother finishing off a whole bowl of brussels sprouts one night when our special treat was not appreciated by our guests.... He was 2 and basically almost no teeth. Mom left him at the table in his high chair with the pyrex bowl in front of him as we all went to watch TV.
Were they raw?
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Old 31st January 2020, 04:47 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Were they raw?
This is a good question because most vegetables seem to become sweeter when cooked.

I can see that there is a wide range of personal taste though.

As I child I preferred all my vegetables raw* (even potatoes and onions) and routinely ate things like lemons and olives (cured olives, not raw).

At around about age 8 someone told me that I had an adult palate.

* This may have been a natural defence against my parents "cooking" skills. I still like raw vegetables, but can't remember the last time I ate a raw potato, I'd guess more than forty years ago.
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Old 31st January 2020, 04:53 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
This is a good question because most vegetables seem to become sweeter when cooked.
And some vegetables become nontoxic when cooked.
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Old 31st January 2020, 05:12 PM   #16
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What do you do if attacked with a banana?

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2nzlu5
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Old 31st January 2020, 05:30 PM   #17
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So were the "4 food groups" I learned about in elementary school wrong after all? Is it possible that vegetables are actually not good for you, contra everything adults told me about food when I was a kid?
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Old 31st January 2020, 05:35 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
This is a good question because most vegetables seem to become sweeter when cooked.

I can see that there is a wide range of personal taste though.

As I child I preferred all my vegetables raw* (even potatoes and onions) and routinely ate things like lemons and olives (cured olives, not raw).

At around about age 8 someone told me that I had an adult palate.

* This may have been a natural defence against my parents "cooking" skills. I still like raw vegetables, but can't remember the last time I ate a raw potato, I'd guess more than forty years ago.
I don't think I've ever eaten a raw potato. At least, I have no memory of it.

I do like onions both raw and cooked, but mixed with other things, like on a sandwich or in a salad.
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Old 31st January 2020, 05:45 PM   #19
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By the way, regarding "green tea extract" as a supplement:

'The food supplement that ruined my liver'

Quote:
As part of his mid-life health kick, Jim had started taking a green tea supplement because he had heard it might have cardiac benefits. These supplements have grown in popularity in recent years, often breathlessly promoted online for their antioxidant benefits, and their supposed ability to aid weight loss and prevent cancer.

"I felt fine then," remembers Jim, who lives in Prosper, north of Dallas. "I was walking or running 30-to-60 minutes, five or six days a week." He was working as a finance manager but hoped to retrain as a physician assistant. "I was taking two or three classes at a time at nights and at weekends," he recalls.

He had been taking the green tea supplement for two to three months when he became ill. According to Jim's medical record this is the presumed cause of his liver injury. "It was shocking because I'd only heard about the benefits," remembers Jim. "I'd not heard about any problems."

After his admission to hospital, Jim went into a "holding pattern", waiting for the results of a series of blood tests to establish the seriousness of his liver injury. Then, about three weeks after his wife had first noticed he looked ill, one of his liver doctors delivered the news he had been fearing: "She said you need a liver transplant. This has to happen fast. You have days - you don't have a week."

Jim was stunned.

"I was thinking this looks very bleak for me. It really crystallises what's important in life. I wasn't there thinking about projects at work. I was thinking of different people that were important to me for different reasons."
I'm not sure what that means about green tea (Japanese people drink green tea all the time, and they all insist it's very healthy). It may be that putting it in pill form instead of drinking the tea makes a big difference, or maybe the product he bought was dodgy.
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Old 31st January 2020, 05:48 PM   #20
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A lot of vegetables are not good for you unless they are altered by cooking ..


Have you heard of cassava, which is a staple in some parts of the world.

Quote:
Cassava is classified as either sweet or bitter. Like other roots and tubers, both bitter and sweet varieties of cassava contain antinutritional factors and toxins, with the bitter varieties containing much larger amounts.[7] It must be properly prepared before consumption, as improper preparation of cassava can leave enough residual cyanide to cause acute cyanide intoxication,[8][9] goiters, and even ataxia, partial paralysis, or death. The more toxic varieties of cassava are a fall-back resource (a "food security crop") in times of famine or food insecurity in some places.[8][7] Farmers often prefer the bitter varieties because they deter pests, animals, and thieves.[10]

Tapioca comes from cassava..

Fruits ( and even some vegetables ) that are sweet, hope you will eat them seeds and all, so that the seeds are spread far and wide.

We have corrupted our diet with too much fruit because we can eat it all year round and in much greater quantity and variety than would have been available locally.
The end result is too much sugar.
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Old 31st January 2020, 05:55 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
A lot of vegetables are not good for you unless they are altered by cooking ..


Have you heard of cassava, which is a staple in some parts of the world.




Tapioca comes from cassava..

Fruits ( and even some vegetables ) that are sweet, hope you will eat them seeds and all, so that the seeds are spread far and wide.

We have corrupted our diet with too much fruit because we can eat it all year round and in much greater quantity and variety than would have been available locally.
The end result is too much sugar.
Not from fruit though.
Eating whole fruit, it is almost impossible to consume enough fructose to cause harm.

Fruits are loaded with fiber, water and have significant chewing resistance.

For this reason, most fruits (like apples) take a while to eat and digest, meaning that the fructose hits the liver slowly.
Unlike, say, drinking a sugary soft drink.
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Old 31st January 2020, 05:55 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
..

I'm not sure what that means about green tea (Japanese people drink green tea all the time, and they all insist it's very healthy). It may be that putting it in pill form instead of drinking the tea makes a big difference, or maybe the product he bought was dodgy.
Read the study abstract again.

It did not say that green tea was not healthy, it said they could not show any antioxident benefits worth noting.

The unexpected findings were that removing fruits and vegetables from the diet resulted in health benefits, specifically " a decrease in oxidative damage to DNA, blood proteins, and plasma lipids, "
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Old 31st January 2020, 06:11 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
What do you do if attacked with a banana?

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2nzlu5
Damn you , I was going to post a link to that.one of my favorite Python skits...
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Old 1st February 2020, 02:09 AM   #24
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The article is available, not just the abstract. They do suggest a reason:

"We speculate that these seemingly positive effects on oxidative status are partly due to depletion of some pro-oxidant compounds co-existing with vitamin C in fruits and vegetables and this underlines the general lack of solid knowledge of the mechanisms by which a diet rich in fruits and vegetables cause a decrease in the risk of chronic diseases."

I suppose one possibility is that fruits and vegetables contain both pro-oxidant and anti-oxidant compounds, and the net balance is usually favourable. However, with the green tea extract temporarily replacing the anti-oxidants from the depleted fruits and vegetables, albeit only with very short term effects, the balance might tip in favour of eliminating the pro-oxidant compounds. I don't know enough about the area to know how likely that is. They also appear to suggest that there might be other reasons for the benefits of fruits and vegetables.

They also state:

"Complex pro- and antioxidant effects could together with large differences in study material and protocols possibly explain much of the apparent extensive variation and discrepancies regarding the effects of antioxidants, fruits and vegetables on DNA, lipid and protein oxidation."


Also note this is a very small sample.
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Old 1st February 2020, 07:08 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Read the study abstract again.

It did not say that green tea was not healthy, it said they could not show any antioxident benefits worth noting.

The unexpected findings were that removing fruits and vegetables from the diet resulted in health benefits, specifically " a decrease in oxidative damage to DNA, blood proteins, and plasma lipids, "
I'm sure that green tea is perfectly safe. It's apparently the "extract" that can ruin one's liver.
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Old 1st February 2020, 07:26 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I'm sure that green tea is perfectly safe. It's apparently the "extract" that can ruin one's liver.
Especially if you take it with Vodka.
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Old 1st February 2020, 07:34 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Especially if you take it with Vodka.
I got the impression from the BBC article that it's worse than vodka.
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Old 1st February 2020, 08:50 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I got the impression from the BBC article that it's worse than vodka.
Woot! So all these years I've been PROTECTING my liver. I'll drink to that! Cheers!
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Old 3rd February 2020, 04:05 PM   #29
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Here is a piece I find interesting regarding antioxidants:

The Antioxidant Myth

Quote:
Most antioxidants have "poor bioavailability"—they are very difficult for us to absorb, are transformed into something else before absorption, and/or are rapidly eliminated from the body before they can reach our cells.
And this regarding "Pom" :

Quote:
Yes, Pom Wonderful is loaded with antioxidants—ellagitannins and anthocyanins, to be exact. But what percentage of the miraculous antioxidants within Pom Wonderful can we absorb into our bodies? Only about 0.2 percent (or 2/1000th) of the anthocyanins are absorbed, and the ellagitannins are transformed into something else before we have a chance to even try to absorb them.

So, what do you actually absorb from that 8-ounce curvaceous bottle of purple liquid? A whopping 32 grams of sugar—a powerful promoter of oxidation! You are in fact shelling out your hard-earned money to buy the OPPOSITE of what you were told you would get. Pom Wonderful does NOT fight free radicals—it literally causes more free radicals to form, increasing oxidative damage inside your body.
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Old 4th February 2020, 02:17 AM   #30
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Are antioxidant-rich food actually good for us? I have seen articles that oxidants act as signalling proteins for muscle growth, and exaggerated ingestion of antioxidants might interfere with this. One such article is this Oxidants as stimulators of signal transduction. - NCBI.

In one episode of BBC's "Trust Me - I'm a Doctor" the level of antioxidants in the blood was measured before and after ingestion of food with antioxidants, and it was found that the level rises shortly after ingestion, but later drops to a lower level than the original, because the natural production of antioxidants in the body is inhibited when too much is ingested into the blood.
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Old 4th February 2020, 02:15 PM   #31
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"Antioxidants" were much less favored among healthy eating gurus back when they were called "preservatives."
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Old 4th February 2020, 02:18 PM   #32
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I find it very interesting that when I Google:

" Plant Free Diet ", All of the hits I get on the first two pages, and who knows how far beyond, are all about " plant BASED diets "..

Why doesn't " plant free " parse with Google ?

Pretty much the same thing happens on bing..
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Old 4th February 2020, 02:28 PM   #33
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You will get some carnivore recommendations if you use "Vegetable Free Diet".
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Old 4th February 2020, 02:58 PM   #34
Red Baron Farms
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I find it very interesting that when I Google:

" Plant Free Diet ", All of the hits I get on the first two pages, and who knows how far beyond, are all about " plant BASED diets "..

Why doesn't " plant free " parse with Google ?

Pretty much the same thing happens on bing..
You get the right search if you use quotes.
Quote:
"plant free diet"
make sure to include the "s
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Old 4th February 2020, 03:29 PM   #35
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Thanks. I just learned something about Googling..

I wasn't looking for the " s "..
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