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Old 13th September 2019, 12:59 PM   #281
Nessie
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
You're confusing the idea of credible witnesses with independent verification but they are two separate things.

...
I don't know if that is addressed to me or not, but all I have presented is what I would regard as credible evidence, nothing more. In no way am I saying ghosts are proven, or even well evidenced. I am saying that due to credible sightings, I think that there is a probability there is something (not sure exactly what) that we call a ghost, that is not just a mind trick, trick of the light.
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Old 13th September 2019, 07:31 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I don't know if that is addressed to me or not, but all I have presented is what I would regard as credible evidence, nothing more. In no way am I saying ghosts are proven, or even well evidenced. I am saying that due to credible sightings, I think that there is a probability there is something (not sure exactly what) that we call a ghost, that is not just a mind trick, trick of the light.
I've spent 39 years studying this subject. I have read every book on the subject, everything from egghead to regional true ghost stories. I still buy true ghost story books now and again. My interest was formed in my teenage years while I worked in a restaurant that - seemed- to be haunted. I had a key to the place and I spent hours in this one location alone trying to figure it all out. I WAS a believer based on the things I saw and heard in the three years I worked there. As I became knowledgeable I was asked to investigate hauntings around town.

A few years later the US Army closed Fort Ord leaving 3,000 different buildings empty. I've been inside approximately 600 of them, but not in search of ghosts. My interest was the many murals left behind by the soldiers of the 7thID(L). Out of those 600 buildings I experienced unusual activity in 12. That's 2%. The great thing about an abandoned Army base is that many of the buildings are uniform and this allowed me make observations the few investigators could make. Why does one building creep me out while an identical building in worse shape feel comfortable. Most of the buildings experienced suicides during their 40 years and a few saw murders. All of them saw brutal assaults.






(Spooky, right? Completely comfortable building)





(Uniform)

Why does one building give off a creepy vibe while it's twin feel welcoming(or neutral)? Why would I see things in one but not the other?

This was the late 1990's through 2005, and the first real research into Infrasound was being published. This work gave me something solid to observe and it paid dividends. I found that the creepy buildings had fewer open doors on their second and third floors creating a resonating chamber effect. After I opened all of the doors on all three floors of the creepy building the feelings of dread vanished. I found the reverse to be true when I closed doors in the "happy" buildings.

And yes, this is subjective. It holds zero scientific value but I feel it is a reasonable explanation that is consistent with scientific research on infrasound.

I heard and saw a lot of things out there, and I have ghost stories up the yinyang from my explorations there, but I also followed up on these occurrences until I could explain most of them. And I finish with this point:

My investigations fall into two catagories; explained and yet to be explained. Like I said, I'd love to get my hands on that Nobel Prize money, I would love to see ghosts "proven" as something other than a trick of the mind. The fact is I have to play by the rules and that means that I have no evidence of ghosts. I do have evidence that supports the conclusions about infrasound's influence on the mind, and to me that's just as rewarding.
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Old 14th September 2019, 07:05 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Yes. Since part of the house was the police office and being where we were, doors were not always locked, we had had people just walk into the house.



The footsteps walked right past me, but I saw no one. The same thing happened to my spouse.


What I find strange about this is how you could identify them as footsteps that sounded the same. You have no way of knowing what it sounded like to other people with a similar claim. And what do footsteps actually sound like? I'd say they can sound very different depending on the surface, the speed, footwear and so on. I think from the evidence you presented you don't have enough to know if you and the others claiming to have heard the same thing. Indeed I can see how other people could have claimed to have heard the same thing after you mentioned it when at the time they didn't identify them as footsteps.

It is anything but evidence for a supernatural event.
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Old 14th September 2019, 12:20 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
What I find strange about this is how you could identify them as footsteps that sounded the same. You have no way of knowing what it sounded like to other people with a similar claim. And what do footsteps actually sound like? I'd say they can sound very different depending on the surface, the speed, footwear and so on. I think from the evidence you presented you don't have enough to know if you and the others claiming to have heard the same thing. Indeed I can see how other people could have claimed to have heard the same thing after you mentioned it when at the time they didn't identify them as footsteps.

It is anything but evidence for a supernatural event.
I think you mean that the different people who heard footsteps may have heard different footsteps?

I know that what I heard was footsteps and it is evidence that there is something out there that we know virtually nothing about.
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Old 14th September 2019, 12:54 PM   #285
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I have gone from wanting to believe in something more than we know to simply not being able to explain thing and events. For example a house I lived in 30 years ago had more winter ghosts than summer, once the frost was out and the furnace off.

CO and frost heaving could explain it all if my fuzzy memories are half right. But no way I can go back anymore. I just recently read of carbon monoxide gasses fooling the senses and " causing " ghost perception. My basement room had more weirdness than the drafty 2nd floor.

You NEVER see any ghost hunters on tv testing that.
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Old 14th September 2019, 01:05 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I think you mean that the different people who heard footsteps may have heard different footsteps?



I know that what I heard was footsteps and it is evidence that there is something out there that we know virtually nothing about.
How can you know that?
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Old 14th September 2019, 01:37 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I think you mean that the different people who heard footsteps may have heard different footsteps?



I know that what I heard was footsteps and it is evidence that there is something out there that we know virtually nothing about.
We actually know a *ton* about the limits of human perception and memory.

Unless you mean there's something out there that can't be verified, can't be measured, and can't be predicted.
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Old 15th September 2019, 10:45 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Why does one building give off a creepy vibe while it's twin feel welcoming(or neutral)? Why would I see things in one but not the other?
Because humans have an infinite capacity for fantasy.
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Old 15th September 2019, 11:14 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
How can you know that?
If someone walked through your house, would not recognise what foot steps sound like?
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Old 16th September 2019, 12:29 AM   #290
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We are not talking about "someone" walking through the house, but about a "ghost". In such a case, I would assume that the sound was only similar to the sound of foot steps, but not actual foot steps.
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Old 16th September 2019, 12:51 AM   #291
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Nessie, what exactly do you believe a 'ghost' is? A person who has died?
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Old 16th September 2019, 01:00 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
I've spent 39 years studying this subject. I have read every book on the subject, everything from egghead to regional true ghost stories. I still buy true ghost story books now and again. My interest was formed in my teenage years while I worked in a restaurant that - seemed- to be haunted. I had a key to the place and I spent hours in this one location alone trying to figure it all out. I WAS a believer based on the things I saw and heard in the three years I worked there. As I became knowledgeable I was asked to investigate hauntings around town.

A few years later the US Army closed Fort Ord leaving 3,000 different buildings empty. I've been inside approximately 600 of them, but not in search of ghosts. My interest was the many murals left behind by the soldiers of the 7thID(L). Out of those 600 buildings I experienced unusual activity in 12. That's 2%. The great thing about an abandoned Army base is that many of the buildings are uniform and this allowed me make observations the few investigators could make. Why does one building creep me out while an identical building in worse shape feel comfortable. Most of the buildings experienced suicides during their 40 years and a few saw murders. All of them saw brutal assaults.

https://i.imgur.com/alEQkfB.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/fYqFQcW.jpg

(Spooky, right? Completely comfortable building)

https://i.imgur.com/N2trlzy.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/7ogpZGs.jpg

(Uniform)

Why does one building give off a creepy vibe while it's twin feel welcoming(or neutral)? Why would I see things in one but not the other?

This was the late 1990's through 2005, and the first real research into Infrasound was being published. This work gave me something solid to observe and it paid dividends. I found that the creepy buildings had fewer open doors on their second and third floors creating a resonating chamber effect. After I opened all of the doors on all three floors of the creepy building the feelings of dread vanished. I found the reverse to be true when I closed doors in the "happy" buildings.

And yes, this is subjective. It holds zero scientific value but I feel it is a reasonable explanation that is consistent with scientific research on infrasound.

I heard and saw a lot of things out there, and I have ghost stories up the yinyang from my explorations there, but I also followed up on these occurrences until I could explain most of them. And I finish with this point:

My investigations fall into two catagories; explained and yet to be explained. Like I said, I'd love to get my hands on that Nobel Prize money, I would love to see ghosts "proven" as something other than a trick of the mind. The fact is I have to play by the rules and that means that I have no evidence of ghosts. I do have evidence that supports the conclusions about infrasound's influence on the mind, and to me that's just as rewarding.
Amazing, so after years of research you conclude that there is yet evidence to conclude ghosts exist.
I guess I do have questions, such as mediums and ghosts, if ghosts exist then maybe psychics claims are real and the afterlife does exist. This is where my thought processes lead to.
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Old 16th September 2019, 01:12 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by AmyW View Post
Amazing, so after years of research you conclude that there is yet evidence to conclude ghosts exist.
I guess I do have questions, such as mediums and ghosts, if ghosts exist then maybe psychics claims are real and the afterlife does exist. This is where my thought processes lead to.
If ghosts are real then almost anything is believable.
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Old 16th September 2019, 01:34 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by AmyW View Post
Nessie, what exactly do you believe a 'ghost' is? A person who has died?
I think a ghost maybe someone who appears out of time. The traditional ghost is someone who has died and has then reappeared but is now out of their time of existence. If it is some sort of time slip, a ghost could also be from the future or even elsewhere in the present.
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Old 16th September 2019, 01:35 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
We are not talking about "someone" walking through the house, but about a "ghost". In such a case, I would assume that the sound was only similar to the sound of foot steps, but not actual foot steps.
It was so similar as to be indistinguishable from actual foot steps.
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Old 16th September 2019, 01:56 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I think a ghost maybe someone who appears out of time. The traditional ghost is someone who has died and has then reappeared but is now out of their time of existence. If it is some sort of time slip, a ghost could also be from the future or even elsewhere in the present.
In other words, physically impossible, and you even expanded the goal posts so that every place anywhere in the world has a connection to a death. Strange that ghosts only appear at certain places.
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Old 16th September 2019, 01:58 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It was so similar as to be indistinguishable from actual foot steps.
Exactly. That is how our senses work. You conclusion that it must have been a physically impossible entity instead of a mundane event seems very strange.
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Old 16th September 2019, 06:54 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
If someone walked through your house, would not recognise what foot steps sound like?
Depends who was making them, how they were walking, what footwear they had on, the floor surface and so on.

I'm afraid you seem to be doing the equivalent of being in the New Forest and hearing the sounds of hooves and saying "that's a zebra".
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Old 16th September 2019, 06:55 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It was so similar as to be indistinguishable from actual foot steps.
Apart from you knowing they weren't footsteps.
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Old 16th September 2019, 12:38 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
In other words, physically impossible, and you even expanded the goal posts so that every place anywhere in the world has a connection to a death. Strange that ghosts only appear at certain places.
None of the instances I have related are directly related to a death. There is an assumption that the experiences in my former house may have been related to a death.

I am not convinced about stories of hauntings as there is then an expectation which will clearly influence people.

It is the unexpected, unanticipated experiences that I think suggest that there may be something out there which can be described as a ghost.
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Old 16th September 2019, 12:42 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Depends who was making them, how they were walking, what footwear they had on, the floor surface and so on.

I'm afraid you seem to be doing the equivalent of being in the New Forest and hearing the sounds of hooves and saying "that's a zebra".
No I was in my house and on hearing the sound of foot steps in the hall I said that's someone in the house, but I saw no one.
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Old 16th September 2019, 01:18 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
No I was in my house and on hearing the sound of foot steps in the hall I said that's someone in the house, but I saw no one.
Or you heard something and as we do as humans your brain tried to make sense of the stimulus and came up with "footsteps".

But you do not know it was footsteps, indeed you have to know it was not footsteps because there was no one there. Footsteps are made when a foot hits the ground or another surface causing vibrations some of which fall within the range humans' ears and brains can detect and process.
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Old 16th September 2019, 08:04 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by AmyW View Post
Amazing, so after years of research you conclude that there is yet evidence to conclude ghosts exist.
I guess I do have questions, such as mediums and ghosts, if ghosts exist then maybe psychics claims are real and the afterlife does exist. This is where my thought processes lead to.
And this thinking has been the root of the problem going all the way back to the 19th Century and has clouded everything.

First we have to prove the phenomenon exists independently from human interaction. This is a tall order because ghosties don't seen to register on any equipment. But let's say we get lucky and we can prove the phenomenon on our JeeWhiz-Super Widget. Great, now we have a starting point to conduct studies, and construct experiments. That's going to be an ongoing project that might take decades before we would have a definitive definition of what the phenomenon is or is not.

As I continue to state: the most common ghost seen and or heard is that of a still living person. This should automatically rule out the afterlife.
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Old 16th September 2019, 08:56 PM   #304
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The human senses "are" a kind of equipment.

If there is really something to see, then it shouldn't matter if the emitted light is absorbed by an eye or a camera.
If there is something to hear, both an ear and a microphone will pick it up.
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Old 17th September 2019, 07:47 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The human senses "are" a kind of equipment.

If there is really something to see, then it shouldn't matter if the emitted light is absorbed by an eye or a camera.
If there is something to hear, both an ear and a microphone will pick it up.
Those facts take the fun and mystery out of things.
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Old 17th September 2019, 11:29 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The human senses "are" a kind of equipment.

If there is really something to see, then it shouldn't matter if the emitted light is absorbed by an eye or a camera.
If there is something to hear, both an ear and a microphone will pick it up.
Yup.

Today we have full-spectrum cameras that work from IR to UV. They've had microphones that can record any and every sound frequency for years.
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Old 17th September 2019, 11:48 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
No I was in my house and on hearing the sound of foot steps in the hall I said that's someone in the house, but I saw no one.
There are too many well-known problems with human perception, human memory, and uncorroborated testimony for your anecdote to be supportive of any claim about ghosts.
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Old 17th September 2019, 12:00 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
If someone walked through your house, would not recognise what foot steps sound like?
Nope. I clomp, the cat clicks, the kids glide silently. My fridge sounds like the cat pawing at the window to get in, the immersion sounds like a stranger wandering around, silence sounds exactly like my kids. I am the only "clomper".

My previous abode was a house built in 1872. Boy was that full of inexplicable sounds.

Where does that get us?
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Old 17th September 2019, 12:12 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Yup.

Today we have full-spectrum cameras that work from IR to UV. They've had microphones that can record any and every sound frequency for years.
Yet the fools on staff of the program Extranormal will use cheap motion detectors and a magnetic field detector only combined with their super refined skills.

They find ghosts-demons-interdimentional travelers everywhere.
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Old 17th September 2019, 12:18 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Or you heard something and as we do as humans your brain tried to make sense of the stimulus and came up with "footsteps".

But you do not know it was footsteps, indeed you have to know it was not footsteps because there was no one there. Footsteps are made when a foot hits the ground or another surface causing vibrations some of which fall within the range humans' ears and brains can detect and process.
What could cause something to sound exactly like footsteps, at about 01.00, to go down a hallway and do it only once in the 4 years I lived in that house?
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Old 17th September 2019, 12:21 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Nope. I clomp, the cat clicks, the kids glide silently. My fridge sounds like the cat pawing at the window to get in, the immersion sounds like a stranger wandering around, silence sounds exactly like my kids. I am the only "clomper".

My previous abode was a house built in 1872. Boy was that full of inexplicable sounds.

Where does that get us?
What do you think could cause a clomping sound, that sounds just like you are walking through your house, but it is not you and no one else is there?
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Old 17th September 2019, 12:34 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
What could cause something to sound exactly like footsteps, at about 01.00, to go down a hallway and do it only once in the 4 years I lived in that house?
The problem is that we have no way of determining if it sounded exactly like footsteps.

We have no way of determining if any actual noise was made at the time. We have no way of determining that what you heard did actually sound like footsteps, instead of sounding ambiguous and being interpreted as footsteps by your mind in that moment.

We have no way of determining whether it sounded nothing like footsteps at the time, but over the years of re-telling and re-remembering the re-told story, the narrative has evolved to "sounded exactly like footsteps."

We have no way of determining that it only happened once in 4 years. We have no way of determining whether it actually happened a lot, but only that one time were the circumstances such that it created the impression of footsteps and stuck in your mind. We have no way of determining whether it's a sound that your house makes all the time, but it just happened to sound different when you heard it from the other direction that once. Etc.

We have no way of determining whether this happened to a friend of yours, and you're relaying it in the first person for greater impact, but misremembering some of the details your friend imparted to you. We have no way of determining whether this friend actually experienced the event in the first place. Etc.

We have no way of determining whether this incident, or any incident remotely like it, actually happened to anybody at all. We have no way of determining that this isn't a invented narrative being presented as fact, to pose a challenge to the skeptical epistemology of ghosts.

---

So no. "What could cause something to sound exactly like footsteps?" is the wrong question. The right question is, "without a recording of the sound, without actually investigating possible causes of noise in that house, why on Earth would you imagine this anecdote supports the idea of ghosts?"
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Old 17th September 2019, 01:26 PM   #313
P.J. Denyer
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I had a 'ghost' that would rattle the cutlery in the draining rack really loudly when no-one was in the kitchen.

Turned out that the recent demolition of a cement works a field away from my house had left thousands of mice homeless and next door but one's extension work had given them an open invitation. Mice love toast crumbs and a mouse's back pushing the eject mechanism of a toaster up and down sounds like cutlery from the next room.

Oh, and the heating and cooling of nails through joists when the radiators go on and off makes "demonic oppression" type banging noises in my house.
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Old 17th September 2019, 01:50 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The problem is that we have no way of determining if it sounded exactly like footsteps.

We have no way of determining if any actual noise was made at the time. We have no way of determining that what you heard did actually sound like footsteps, instead of sounding ambiguous and being interpreted as footsteps by your mind in that moment.

We have no way of determining whether it sounded nothing like footsteps at the time, but over the years of re-telling and re-remembering the re-told story, the narrative has evolved to "sounded exactly like footsteps."

We have no way of determining that it only happened once in 4 years. We have no way of determining whether it actually happened a lot, but only that one time were the circumstances such that it created the impression of footsteps and stuck in your mind. We have no way of determining whether it's a sound that your house makes all the time, but it just happened to sound different when you heard it from the other direction that once. Etc.

We have no way of determining whether this happened to a friend of yours, and you're relaying it in the first person for greater impact, but misremembering some of the details your friend imparted to you. We have no way of determining whether this friend actually experienced the event in the first place. Etc.

We have no way of determining whether this incident, or any incident remotely like it, actually happened to anybody at all. We have no way of determining that this isn't a invented narrative being presented as fact, to pose a challenge to the skeptical epistemology of ghosts.

---

So no. "What could cause something to sound exactly like footsteps?" is the wrong question. The right question is, "without a recording of the sound, without actually investigating possible causes of noise in that house, why on Earth would you imagine this anecdote supports the idea of ghosts?"
What you have is my credible testimony that I heard footsteps and credible witness testimony needs explaining, not attempts to dismiss it as not credible.
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Old 17th September 2019, 01:51 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I had a 'ghost' that would rattle the cutlery in the draining rack really loudly when no-one was in the kitchen.

Turned out that the recent demolition of a cement works a field away from my house had left thousands of mice homeless and next door but one's extension work had given them an open invitation. Mice love toast crumbs and a mouse's back pushing the eject mechanism of a toaster up and down sounds like cutlery from the next room.

Oh, and the heating and cooling of nails through joists when the radiators go on and off makes "demonic oppression" type banging noises in my house.
If I had an explanation like that, I would not have even bothered posting in this thread. There was no structural explanation for what I heard.
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Old 17th September 2019, 01:59 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
What do you think could cause a clomping sound, that sounds just like you are walking through your house, but it is not you and no one else is there?
Would you like a real example?
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Old 17th September 2019, 02:00 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
What you have is my credible testimony that I heard footsteps and credible witness testimony needs explaining, not attempts to dismiss it as not credible.
Begging the question. We don't actually know if your testimony is credible. We can't actually know if your testimony is credible.

Beyond that, we don't have the noise, and we don't have the house. There might be any number of mundane explanations, depending on the specific details of the noise and the house in question.

But. You can't provide those details anecdotally. Human perception and memory simply don't work that way. The fact is that you just don't provide enough detail to offer any explanation - including ghosts.

Your insistence that this inability to explain it rules out everything but ghosts goes a long way towards undermining your credibility. You want us to give you all the benefits of a reliable narrator, but you have no way to establish your reliability, and have taken an approach that calls your reliability into question.
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Old 17th September 2019, 02:54 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
What you have is my credible testimony that I heard footsteps and credible witness testimony needs explaining, not attempts to dismiss it as not credible.
I don't know if you are a credible witness, but I am willing to accept that you heard something that sounded like foot steps. It is your subsequent analysis of this mundane event that seems rather incredible, and I am inclined to think that you have missed the real cause of the sound.
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Old 17th September 2019, 02:58 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
If I had an explanation like that, I would not have even bothered posting in this thread. There was no structural explanation for what I heard.
It's simply not plausible that you conclusively ruled out all possible structural or environmental explanations.
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Old 17th September 2019, 04:09 PM   #320
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I believe we have all had the experience of thinking we hear our name called, or thinking we may have heard someone speak, when no one was there. Couldn't the foot steps have the same source?
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