IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags court cases , donald trump , Michael Flynn , perjury cases , Robert Mueller , William Barr

Reply
Old 7th May 2020, 11:31 PM   #81
fishbob
Seasonally Disaffected
 
fishbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Chilly Undieville
Posts: 7,262
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I have mixed feelings about this.

The feds really seem to enjoy setting up perjury scenarios and nailing people for them, especially if they can't make a larger case. Generally speaking, I am never really comfortable with this. Opponents of Flynn really care more about his involvement with the extremely corrupt Trump election campaign than they do about the importance of not lying to federal agents.

I also have no illusion that Barr's justice department is dropping this after a come-to-jesus moment about this practice. This is obviously about bailing out Trump loyalists. No-one else finding themselves in the perjury trap can expect to get relief, unless they are doing dirty work for Trump.

The Trump era has made for some strange bedfellows. You have libs cheering on federal law enforcement, and conservatives bemoaning the overreach of law enforcement.

Strange times indeed.
Genuinely curious - how do you set someone up to lie?
Either you lie or you don't.
__________________
"When you believe in things you don't understand, then you suffer . . . " - Stevie Wonder.
"It looks like the saddest, most crookedest candy corn in an otherwise normal bag of candy corns." Stormy Daniels
I hate bigots.
fishbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2020, 11:36 PM   #82
Shadowdweller
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,002
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
And since he was never charged with the worse crime, if the plea deal falls through because the DoJ drops the charges on the lesser crime, that means jeopardy can only be attached to the lesser crime (its not possible to attach jeopardy to a crime that hasn't been charged). That leaves him wide open to being charged for the worse crime. Once the corruption is rooted out from the DoJ, and Trump is gone-burger, the new Government is going to have access to all the stuff that has been hidden from view. I would not rule out orange jump suits in the future of some current and former members of the administration.
I sincerely hope that is the case. But I'd be lying if I said I had any confidence that a resurgent Democratic Party would actually prosecute, despite setting a truly disastrous precedent by not doing so.

Last edited by Shadowdweller; 7th May 2020 at 11:41 PM.
Shadowdweller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2020, 11:37 PM   #83
fishbob
Seasonally Disaffected
 
fishbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Chilly Undieville
Posts: 7,262
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The Department of Justice has withdrawn its case against Michael Flynn.

https://apnews.com/ae1ad252bb13490db2ceffc5d17b6d92

This is not terribly surprising, given recent revelations about how the case against Flynn started, and given that the prosecution illegally withheld this information until now. Van Grack is up a creek without a paddle, and he knows it.
How do you improperly trap someone into lying?
I have seen this claim a number of times now and it makes no sense.
__________________
"When you believe in things you don't understand, then you suffer . . . " - Stevie Wonder.
"It looks like the saddest, most crookedest candy corn in an otherwise normal bag of candy corns." Stormy Daniels
I hate bigots.
fishbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2020, 11:42 PM   #84
fishbob
Seasonally Disaffected
 
fishbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Chilly Undieville
Posts: 7,262
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's a crime that arises from the process of investigating/prosecuting some other crime. It's still a crime, but let's be clear: Lying during a bogus criminal investigation is not the same as committing the crime that's being "investigated". There was no justification for interrogating him, which kind of renders moot his lie during that interrogation.
OK - and he pled guilty to it - which renders moot nothing.
If there was, and I don't believe that for a minute, no justification for the interrogation, then there was still no justification for lying to the investigators.

He could after all have simply not lied.
__________________
"When you believe in things you don't understand, then you suffer . . . " - Stevie Wonder.
"It looks like the saddest, most crookedest candy corn in an otherwise normal bag of candy corns." Stormy Daniels
I hate bigots.
fishbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2020, 11:44 PM   #85
fishbob
Seasonally Disaffected
 
fishbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Chilly Undieville
Posts: 7,262
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's funny that you think anyone could complete a prosecution of Flynn at this point, given the recently uncovered documents.
Apparently Flynn thought that when he pled guilty.
What a funny guy.
__________________
"When you believe in things you don't understand, then you suffer . . . " - Stevie Wonder.
"It looks like the saddest, most crookedest candy corn in an otherwise normal bag of candy corns." Stormy Daniels
I hate bigots.
fishbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2020, 11:48 PM   #86
fishbob
Seasonally Disaffected
 
fishbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Chilly Undieville
Posts: 7,262
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Nothing about the Flynn investigation had anything whatsoever to do with the election. And despite the attempt to portray Flynn as having violated the Logan act, nothing about his phone call with the Russian ambassador was either illegal or even improper.



Well, for one thing, the prosecution violated its legal obligations to turn over Brady material. For another, there was no valid predicate for the Flynn investigation in the first place.



Here's the kicker: we don't actually have any proof that Flynn even lied. The FBI has a policy of not recording interviews, and we don't even have the original interview notes. We only have what amounts to third-hand testimony about what Flynn supposedly lied about.



Thanks for demonstrating that you haven't been following the trial. There's a damn good reason sentencing kept being postponed, and the latest document dump confirms that the judge was right to delay.
Except his guilty plea.
__________________
"When you believe in things you don't understand, then you suffer . . . " - Stevie Wonder.
"It looks like the saddest, most crookedest candy corn in an otherwise normal bag of candy corns." Stormy Daniels
I hate bigots.
fishbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2020, 11:53 PM   #87
fishbob
Seasonally Disaffected
 
fishbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Chilly Undieville
Posts: 7,262
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No, that's not what the DOJ said. You can find out what they said here:
https://www.scribd.com/document/4603...ynn#from_embed
It's not just proving that he lied. That doesn't actually suffice for a crime. There are other elements to the crime as well, elements that the DOJ doesn't believe it can prove because, well, they don't exist.
In the tortured reasoning of the Barr DOJ. But he still lied. And pled guilty to it.
__________________
"When you believe in things you don't understand, then you suffer . . . " - Stevie Wonder.
"It looks like the saddest, most crookedest candy corn in an otherwise normal bag of candy corns." Stormy Daniels
I hate bigots.
fishbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2020, 12:14 AM   #88
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 13,806
Hey, Flynn was only a career military General.
How the hell was he supposed to know that lying was bad?
__________________
Ceterum autem censeo fox et amicis esse delendam.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2020, 12:45 AM   #89
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 30,572
https://twitter.com/AshaRangappa_/st...623109128?s=20

Quote:
THREAD. The AG dropping the case on Flynn turns the entire purpose of the Special Counsel regs on its head. The SC is appointed *precisely* to insulate an investigation from influence by a political appointee, namely, the AG. 1/

2. The opportunity to object to investigatory and prosecutorial decisions taken by the Special Counsel was in the hands of Rod Rosenstein (Trump's own appointee), during the course of the investigation. Rosenstein had to APPROVE each major step, and he did. 2/

3. These decisions have already been vetted. Once by Rosenstein, and then again by a separate branch of government: the judiciary. Judge Sullivan had to review the case, and accept Flynn's plea. His view was that Flynn "arguably sold out the country." 3/

4. It makes zero sense to appoint a Special Counsel, have his decisions reviewed and approved by both the DAG and a fed judge, and allow a future AG to come in and simply substitute his judgment. Especially an AG who lied about the findings of the investigation from the get-go.

5. Had Rosenstein overruled Mueller's decisions, he would have been required to notify Congress, and explain his reasons. Barr needs to answer to the judiciary committees for his actions -- these decisions are, ultimately, not really his to make if the SC regs mean anything.

6. Basically, Barr provides the workaround for any future president (D or R) for whom a Special Counsel is appointed. Let the investigation take its course. Then fire the AG who appointed him. Hire another, who undoes and dismisses all the actions the SC took. Voila!
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2020, 12:52 AM   #90
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 30,572
https://twitter.com/steve_vladeck/st...68908320907270

Quote:
Under Rule 48(a) of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, a government motion to dismiss an indictment—even after a guilty plea—requires “leave of court.”

https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcrmp/rule_48

That leave may well be forthcoming, but it’s up to Judge Sullivan, not DOJ—and is not automatic.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2020, 01:22 AM   #91
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 14,149
I hope someone is writing down a list of prosecutions to be made the day the Democrats take over in 2021. US justice has a chance to enforce itself, and it needs to be enforced harshly if the corruption in the US systems is to be rooted out.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2020, 01:42 AM   #92
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 30,572
Lawfare article about the recently released documents and what they actually show
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2020, 01:44 AM   #93
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 30,572
And one about the dismissal
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2020, 02:37 AM   #94
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
 
a_unique_person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 42,812
Originally Posted by fishbob View Post
How do you improperly trap someone into lying?

I have seen this claim a number of times now and it makes no sense.
It is standard police procedure to tell lies to suspects. Not saying it's ethical, but this is special pleading.
__________________
Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
ďPerception is real, but the truth is not.Ē - Imelda Marcos
a_unique_person is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2020, 04:02 AM   #95
Regnad Kcin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Regnad Kcin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: New York
Posts: 10,112
Originally Posted by fishbob View Post
How do you improperly trap someone into lying?
I have seen this claim a number of times now and it makes no sense.
If we torture the logic maybe itíll confess!
__________________
My heros are Alex Zanardi and Evelyn Glennie.
Regnad Kcin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2020, 04:58 AM   #96
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 47,504
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Flynn is a treacherous criminal in the pay of Turkey and it the Military should court-martial him.
The military cannot court martial someone for actions they take when they aren't in the military.

But this is the level of legal thinking I've come to expect from the TDS crowd.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2020, 04:59 AM   #97
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 47,504
Originally Posted by fishbob View Post
Apparently Flynn thought that when he pled guilty.
What a funny guy.
Because at the time, he didn't have the evidence that we have now about how dirty the FBI played. He was also advised by a counsel with a conflict of interest which he may not have understood.

Edited by Darat:  Breach of Rule 0 and 12 removed.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

Last edited by Darat; 8th May 2020 at 09:06 AM.
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2020, 05:01 AM   #98
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 47,504
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
We're not talking theoreticals here. In this particular case, Flynn stood up in federal court and confessed to the lies he was accused of.
Again, that's not evidence. The only evidence he lied is the testimony of the FBI.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2020, 05:06 AM   #99
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 47,504
Originally Posted by fishbob View Post
Apparently Flynn thought that when he pled guilty.
What a funny guy.
What part of "at this point" do you not understand? Flynn didn't plead guilty "at this point". He pled guilty a long time ago, when there was a whole lot less information available about what the FBI did.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2020, 05:28 AM   #100
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 32,225
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Because at the time, he didn't have the evidence that we have now about how dirty the FBI played.
He didnít know what his own actions were when he confessed to doing them? Was he confessing to what the FBI did or to what he did?
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"Itís easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2020, 05:35 AM   #101
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 30,572
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Again, that's not evidence. The only evidence he lied is the testimony of the FBI.
Well, that and the fact that the brief the Justice Department filed also says that he lied. The argument they're making isn't that he didn't lie. It's that he did lie, but that doesn't matter because whether or not he told the truth couldn't have affected the FBI's decision making - that the lies weren't about a material matter - because the investigation they were interviewing him as a part of was illegitimate.

You've been advising people to get abreast of the facts of this case before commenting. You should probably take your own advice.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2020, 05:59 AM   #102
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 47,504
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Well, that and the fact that the brief the Justice Department filed also says that he lied.
That isnít evidence either. And that position is based on the same FBI testimony that we are talking about. So there is still no evidence that he lied except for the testimony of the FBI.

Quote:
The argument they're making isn't that he didn't lie.
I never said that they said otherwise, so I have no idea why you think thatís material. And itís got nothing to do with the subject of this sub-discussion, which is about the systematic problem with the FBI not recording interviews.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2020, 06:11 AM   #103
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 30,572
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That isnít evidence either. And that position is based on the same FBI testimony that we are talking about. So there is still no evidence that he lied except for the testimony of the FBI.
So there's no evidence he lied, other than the fact that he admitted to lying, the FBI say that he lied, and the Justice Department dismissed his case despite also saying that he lied? Okay.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2020, 06:12 AM   #104
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 13,806
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That isnít evidence either. And that position is based on the same FBI testimony that we are talking about. So there is still no evidence that he lied except for the testimony of the FBI.



I never said that they said otherwise, so I have no idea why you think thatís material. And itís got nothing to do with the subject of this sub-discussion, which is about the systematic problem with the FBI not recording interviews.
so you want the DOJ to drop charges against everyone they didn't record their interview with?
Or just Republicans / Trump henchmen?
__________________
Ceterum autem censeo fox et amicis esse delendam.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2020, 06:14 AM   #105
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 13,806
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The military cannot court martial someone for actions they take when they aren't in the military.

But this is the level of legal thinking I've come to expect from the TDS crowd.
you are wrong:

https://www.military.com/daily-news/...r-service.html

But I expected your legal thinking to malfunction if it isn't in favor of your ideology.
__________________
Ceterum autem censeo fox et amicis esse delendam.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2020, 06:21 AM   #106
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 13,806
Also, Flynn's crimes seemed to have been mostly for his own benefit - seems like he used Trump more than the other way around.
Calling this a case of TDS is a clear attempt at deflection.
__________________
Ceterum autem censeo fox et amicis esse delendam.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2020, 07:08 AM   #107
Crazy Chainsaw
Philosopher
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,465
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The lying was a proces crime. The DOJ is dropping the investigation that triggered that process. Because that investigation was bogus to begin with.
It was a cover up as soon as Barr was appointed unless people are Dumb enough to believe that Jerome Corsi got actual Devine intervention, and Always Tells the Truth!
You know Jerome Corsi the man who lies about not being a 9/11No Planer Friend of our own Former Member Lyte Tripp.
Wonder How Lyte is doing these days?
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2020, 07:23 AM   #108
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 32,225
Taking a step back, this is largely how the US justice system mostly works for poor Americans. The only reason it's a big deal now is that, this time, it happened to a well-connected old white man.
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"Itís easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2020, 07:54 AM   #109
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 47,504
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
So there's no evidence he lied, other than the fact that he admitted to lying
A plea is not evidence. It never has been, it never will be.

Quote:
the FBI say that he lied, and the Justice Department dismissed his case despite also saying that he lied? Okay.
Those aren't two separate things. The FBI saying he lied is the ONLY piece of evidence. The DOJ statement isn't evidence at all, it's a statement of their position, which is based upon the only piece of evidence there is: what the FBI says he said.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2020, 07:57 AM   #110
Crazy Chainsaw
Philosopher
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,465
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
A plea is not evidence. It never has been, it never will be.



Those aren't two separate things. The FBI saying he lied is the ONLY piece of evidence. The DOJ statement isn't evidence at all, it's a statement of their position, which is based upon the only piece of evidence there is: what the FBI says he said.
What the FBI documented he said and what Trump said he said.
This whole administration is filled to over flowing with liars.
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2020, 08:18 AM   #111
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 47,504
Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
What the FBI documented he said
Which is what the FBI said he said. They documented what they said he said (and even there, there's some really weird stuff going on), but it's still just what they said he said. And from the start I've been pointing out that this is the only evidence Flynn lied to the FBI. Nobody has been able to come up with anything else, because there isn't anything else.

Quote:
and what Trump said he said.
No. Trump has no first-hand knowledge of what Flynn said to the FBI, so Trump's testimony cannot be evidence of what Trump doesn't know. And the previously referenced statement by Trump was about what Flynn said to Pence, NOT what Flynn said to the FBI. But what Flynn said to Pence isn't actually relevant to the criminal case against Flynn.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2020, 08:27 AM   #112
Crazy Chainsaw
Philosopher
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,465
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Which is what the FBI said he said. They documented what they said he said (and even there, there's some really weird stuff going on), but it's still just what they said he said. And from the start I've been pointing out that this is the only evidence Flynn lied to the FBI. Nobody has been able to come up with anything else, because there isn't anything else.



No. Trump has no first-hand knowledge of what Flynn said to the FBI, so Trump's testimony cannot be evidence of what Trump doesn't know. And the previously referenced statement by Trump was about what Flynn said to Pence, NOT what Flynn said to the FBI. But what Flynn said to Pence isn't actually relevant to the criminal case against Flynn.
Trump stated he fired Flynn because he lied to the FBI and to Mike Pense which he obviously did, so it was Pense that confirmed That Flynn lied to the FBi.
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2020, 08:31 AM   #113
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 32,225
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
A plea is not evidence. It never has been, it never will be.
Are you thinking of nolo contendere (no contest) pleas? Flynn didn't do that. He literally said he guilty of the crime he was accused of under oath. He confessed to lying to the FBI during an investigation.
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"Itís easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2020, 08:44 AM   #114
Crazy Chainsaw
Philosopher
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,465
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Are you thinking of nolo contendere (no contest) pleas? Flynn didn't do that. He literally said he guilty of the crime he was accused of under oath. He confessed to lying to the FBI during an investigation.
Yes and that was confirmed By statements from both Pense and Trump.
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2020, 08:46 AM   #115
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 47,504
Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Yes and that was confirmed By statements from both Pense and Trump.
No, it wasn't. You're talking about what Flynn told Pence. But that's separate from what Flynn told the FBI. Pence has no knowledge about what Flynn told the FBI, only what Flynn told him. But again, what Flynn told Pence isn't relevant to the criminal case against Flynn.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2020, 08:49 AM   #116
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 47,504
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Are you thinking of nolo contendere (no contest) pleas?
No, I'm not.

Quote:
Flynn didn't do that. He literally said he guilty of the crime he was accused of under oath. He confessed to lying to the FBI during an investigation.
Which isn't evidence. Just like pleading innocent isn't evidence that you're innocent. People have reasons other than the truth to plea the way that they do. Sometimes a plea aligns with the truth, but often it doesn't. If you take the plea itself as evidence of the truth, you're an idiot.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2020, 08:50 AM   #117
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 30,572
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
A plea is not evidence.
Sure, Jan.

Quote:
The DOJ statement isn't evidence at all, it's a statement of their position, which is based upon the only piece of evidence there is: what the FBI says he said.
It's evidence that they believe the FBI on this point.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2020, 08:52 AM   #118
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 47,504
Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Trump stated he fired Flynn because he lied to the FBI
Trump has no knowledge of that other than what the FBI said. So we're still back to what the FBI saying he said being the only piece of evidence.

Look, if you think that piece of evidence suffices, fine. But there's really no getting around the fact that it's still the only piece of evidence.

Quote:
and to Mike Pense
What Flynn said to Pence isn't relevant. It's not a crime for Flynn to have lied to Pence, and what Flynn said to Pence can be different from what Flynn said to the FBI. So... not evidence.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2020, 08:55 AM   #119
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 47,504
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
It's evidence that they believe the FBI on this point.
So what? If you believe a piece of evidence, your belief doesn't become a second piece of evidence. There's still only the original piece of evidence.

This is really, really basic logic here. How can you be failing it so badly?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2020, 08:57 AM   #120
Crazy Chainsaw
Philosopher
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,465
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No, it wasn't. You're talking about what Flynn told Pence. But that's separate from what Flynn told the FBI. Pence has no knowledge about what Flynn told the FBI, only what Flynn told him. But again, what Flynn told Pence isn't relevant to the criminal case against Flynn.
False because it contained the same Subject Matter his meetings with the Russian Ambassador. It backs up the FBIs claim.
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:06 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.