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Tags court cases , donald trump , Michael Flynn , perjury cases , Robert Mueller , William Barr

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Old 14th October 2020, 02:51 AM   #1161
Aber
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
I think I posted it already but the documents are in here

https://www.scribd.com/document/4773...o-Sept-24-2020
They don't say what you are claiming.
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Old 14th October 2020, 03:31 AM   #1162
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
No, the lack of evidence is the clearest possible sign that there is a massive Deep State conspiracy to cover up the greatest political crime in the history of the US

Conversely, the abundance of evidence for President Trump's wrongdoings is a clear indication of his fundamental honesty.
your ability to look into the mind of a Trump defender worries me - you know what they say about staring into the Abyss...
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Last edited by The Great Zaganza; 14th October 2020 at 04:16 AM.
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Old 15th October 2020, 09:05 AM   #1163
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
your ability to look into the mind of a Trump defender worries me - you know what they say about staring into the Abyss...
If something seems truthy to you, it's not because it's showing you the truth, but because it's showing you what you want.

You're the audience for Don's post. It's your mind he's looking into as he crafts his message.

Anyway, how would you know Don's vision of a Trump supporter's mind is accurate, unless you've had the same vision yourself?
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Old 15th October 2020, 09:55 AM   #1164
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If something seems truthy to you, it's not because it's showing you the truth, but because it's showing you what you want.

You're the audience for Don's post. It's your mind he's looking into as he crafts his message.

Anyway, how would you know Don's vision of a Trump supporter's mind is accurate, unless you've had the same vision yourself?
I take my vision of a Trump Supporter's mind from their actions.

Don provides the explanation for what I see them doing.
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Old 15th October 2020, 10:11 AM   #1165
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I take my vision of a Trump Supporter's mind from their actions.

Don provides the explanation for what I see them doing.
An explanation. How do you know it's the explanation?
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Old 15th October 2020, 10:25 AM   #1166
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
An explanation. How do you know it's the explanation?
you are free to provide an alternative one.
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Old 15th October 2020, 10:29 AM   #1167
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
you are free to provide an alternative one.
That's not an answer.

And it's not a justification for your position either. Prior to the discovery of nuclear fusion, the power source for the sun was a mystery. We knew it couldn't be ordinary combustion, and it couldn't be gravitational heating. Every known source of energy did not suffice. Had someone proposed that it was powered by demons, would you have accepted that as an explanation because nobody else had an alternative? The lack of a offered alternative doesn't validate an explanation.
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Old 15th October 2020, 10:39 AM   #1168
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's not an answer.

And it's not a justification for your position either. Prior to the discovery of nuclear fusion, the power source for the sun was a mystery. We knew it couldn't be ordinary combustion, and it couldn't be gravitational heating. Every known source of energy did not suffice. Had someone proposed that it was powered by demons, would you have accepted that as an explanation because nobody else had an alternative? The lack of a offered alternative doesn't validate an explanation.
all we can ever hope for is a working explanation until a better one comes along.

Hence you are welcome to provide one.

Otherwise I will have to make do with the serviceable one Don has provided.
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Old 15th October 2020, 10:48 AM   #1169
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
you are free to provide an alternative one.
So much for having some great insight into the minds of others.
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Old 15th October 2020, 10:49 AM   #1170
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
So much for having some great insight into the minds of others.
so much for having an inkling about science.
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Old 15th October 2020, 11:12 AM   #1171
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
all we can ever hope for is a working explanation until a better one comes along.
Once you can see into the heart of the sun and see how it actually works, there is no better explanation than what is actually seen. Hoping for a better explanation at that point is a waste of time.
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Old 15th October 2020, 11:16 AM   #1172
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
all we can ever hope for is a working explanation until a better one comes along.

Hence you are welcome to provide one.

Otherwise I will have to make do with the serviceable one Don has provided.
No, you don't have to, you want to. A wrong answer isn't better than no answer. It's actually OK to simply withhold judgment when you don't know.
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Old 15th October 2020, 11:17 AM   #1173
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Once you can see into the heart of the sun and see how it actually works, there is no better explanation than what is actually seen. Hoping for a better explanation at that point is a waste of time.
and yet, you refuse to provide a better explanation.
So I have to assume that Don's explanation is as good as it gets.


You are not making any points by repeating the fact that you don't have anything better to offer.
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Old 15th October 2020, 11:25 AM   #1174
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
so much for having an inkling about science.
Heh. So much for having an inkling about how analogies work. The Don wasn't making a scientific claim. He was making a claim about having some accurate insight into the minds of others. A claim which you affirmed.

My question was, how can you affirm The Don's claim, without having the same insight yourself?

Now your answer seems to be that you don't have the insight, and can't affirm the claim. You don't know if it's true; it's just the best working claim you can come up with while you hope for a better one. The Don's explanation, and your acceptance of it, necessarily says more about your own mindsets than about the mindsets of the people it purports to describe.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, in principle. Even scientists approach new observations from a particular paradigm or worldview. That paradigm gets changed as the new observations get their explanations. But this isn't science. It's politics.
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Old 15th October 2020, 11:37 AM   #1175
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
and yet, you refuse to provide a better explanation.
So I have to assume that Don's explanation is as good as it gets.
LOL. You were assuming that before anyone else even weighed in.


Quote:
You are not making any points by repeating the fact that you don't have anything better to offer.
I haven't claimed that, let alone repeated it.

I do not claim to have any special insight into the minds of people other than myself (and even then...). I do not claim to know whether the Don's explanation is accurate. I assume that there are probably as many explanations as there are Trump supporters, but I have no way of proving it. I don't think the Don has any way of proving that his explanation is accurate for even a single Trump supporter. I don't think you have any way of proving that, either.

How about a compromise: You and I both agree that neither of us knows what's really going on in the minds of Trump supporters. Fair?
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Old 15th October 2020, 12:20 PM   #1176
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Nope.
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Old 15th October 2020, 12:23 PM   #1177
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Nope.
How do you know what's really going on in the minds of Trump supporters, then?
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Old 15th October 2020, 01:09 PM   #1178
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How do you know what's really going on in the minds of Trump supporters, then?
According to you, no one is allowed to have any theory about the sun unless they already know everything about it.
Therefore you claim that I can't have a theory about Trump supporters unless I can literally read their minds.

You realize that you make no sense, right?
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Old 15th October 2020, 01:26 PM   #1179
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
According to you, no one is allowed to have any theory about the sun unless they already know everything about it.
Therefore you claim that I can't have a theory about Trump supporters unless I can literally read their minds.

You realize that you make no sense, right?
I realize it so well that I'm not saying it.

I understood you as saying that the Don had an accurate explanation of someone's mental state. For that, some form of mind-reading is necessary. Both on Don's part, and on yours.

It seems like you're actually saying that you think the Don has a plausible theory of someone's mental state. That's totally different. No mind-reading is necessary for that.
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Old 15th October 2020, 01:29 PM   #1180
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Nothing I have seen from undeterred Trump supporters provides evidence that the theory is inaccurate.
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Old 15th October 2020, 07:25 PM   #1181
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I realize it so well that I'm not saying it.

I understood you as saying that the Don had an accurate explanation of someone's mental state. For that, some form of mind-reading is necessary. Both on Don's part, and on yours.

It seems like you're actually saying that you think the Don has a plausible theory of someone's mental state. That's totally different. No mind-reading is necessary for that.
You and Zig seem extremely upset that a pretty accurate Trumpanzee impression was described as looking into the brain of a Trumpanzee. Was the impression inacurate? If so, how? Or is this one of those "I object because you described me too well!" scenes?
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Old 15th October 2020, 10:48 PM   #1182
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How do you know what's really going on in the minds of Trump supporters, then?
Because responses can be oh so predictable?
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Old 17th October 2020, 12:28 AM   #1183
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
You and Zig seem extremely upset that a pretty accurate Trumpanzee impression was described as looking into the brain of a Trumpanzee. Was the impression inacurate? If so, how? Or is this one of those "I object because you described me too well!" scenes?
How does your interpretation handle the fact that I'm not actually upset?
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Old 17th October 2020, 05:07 AM   #1184
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
How does your interpretation handle the fact that I'm not actually upset?
Acting upset is indistinguishable from being upset when it's words on a screen.
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Old 17th October 2020, 10:20 PM   #1185
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Acting upset is indistinguishable from being upset when it's words on a screen.
You have a strange definition of "upset".
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Old 18th October 2020, 04:10 AM   #1186
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You have a strange definition of "upset".
Ok, sure.
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Old 27th October 2020, 01:31 AM   #1187
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A couple of days ago, Sullivan ordered the DoJ to sign an affidavit, under penalty of perjury, listing each and every document they have submitted by name, date, and author, and to declare that each and every one is "true and correct"

He had previously required this alongside the documents themselves, but the DoJ failed to turn in such a document. There's usually a presumption that documents submitted by the DoJ are true and accurate, but that they have twice submitted documents that they later admitted were not destroyed that for Sullivan.
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Old 27th October 2020, 02:35 AM   #1188
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Wonder who will be willing to sink his career by signing this.
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Old 28th October 2020, 01:03 AM   #1189
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And seems there are issues with the certification:

Quote:
Lawyers for Strzok and McCabe declined this week to help DOJ vouch for the accuracy of handwritten notes used as evidence to dismiss the case against FLYNN.

But DOJ told Judge Sullivan both attorneys had verified the notes anyway.
https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/stat...75631854448640
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Old 28th October 2020, 01:21 AM   #1190
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Jesus. If you read the Emptywheel article you'll see that not only did both men's lawyers refuse to confirm the authenticity of the materials, but that Straok's lawyer said that one of them is mislabelled, and that another was misrepresented in court. That's not just not saying they're accurate, but saying that at least one of them is inaccurate and that another has been used misleadingly.
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Old 28th October 2020, 03:36 AM   #1191
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Jesus. If you read the Emptywheel article you'll see that not only did both men's lawyers refuse to confirm the authenticity of the materials, but that Straok's lawyer said that one of them is mislabelled, and that another was misrepresented in court. That's not just not saying they're accurate, but saying that at least one of them is inaccurate and that another has been used misleadingly.
The DoJ's legal team lied, in court, under oath?

Holy Moly!!
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Old 28th October 2020, 12:52 PM   #1192
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I wonder if this will provide Sullivan with one or two months of clock time? Starting to really seem like Flynn will end up having to accept being a pardoned criminal.
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Old 28th October 2020, 02:38 PM   #1193
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Originally Posted by Beeyon View Post
I wonder if this will provide Sullivan with one or two months of clock time? Starting to really seem like Flynn will end up having to accept being a pardoned criminal.
Assuming Trump loses the election, why would he pardon Flynn?

Assuming Trump wins the election, why would he pardon Flynn?

After the election Flynn has no meaning. He is irrelevant.
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Old 28th October 2020, 03:54 PM   #1194
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Assuming Trump loses the election, why would he pardon Flynn?

Assuming Trump wins the election, why would he pardon Flynn?

After the election Flynn has no meaning. He is irrelevant.
Trump seems to seriously care about Flynn's fate, whatever the real reason may be. Remember "I hope you can let this go"?

If Flynn's leveraged expired with the election, he would have presumably made his play prior to the election. That the proceedings continue indicate that his silence remains desired after the election.
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Old 28th October 2020, 03:55 PM   #1195
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Assuming Trump loses the election, why would he pardon Flynn?
Yup.

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Assuming Trump wins the election, why would he pardon Flynn?
Yup.

Either way, Trump's probable (political) costs are significantly outweighed by foreseeable benefits.
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Old 28th October 2020, 04:13 PM   #1196
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Yup.

Yup.

Either way, Trump's probable (political) costs are significantly outweighed by foreseeable benefits.

Indeed.

A pardoned Flynn would be immune from prosecution for anything for that he has been charged with and convicted for. However, his legal jeopardy remains if he is questioned and lies again. If he answers truthfully when questioned, he can sing like a bird with no need to take the fifth. He can also be compelled to testify (Title 18 - USC§402)

That makes Flynn thoroughly dangerous to the reeking turd currently in the WH. Dump might be ignorant, but he is not so dumb as to underestimate the danger a pardoned Michael Flynn represents.
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Old 28th October 2020, 06:42 PM   #1197
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I don't get it. What's the mechanism for a pardoned Flynn talking being dangerous/costly to Trump, while an unpardoned, angry Flynn talking not being dangerous/costly to Trump?

I mean, why do you guys think he pardoned commuted Stone's sentence? True friendship?

Last edited by Beeyon; 28th October 2020 at 06:44 PM. Reason: Correction
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Old 28th October 2020, 07:04 PM   #1198
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Originally Posted by Beeyon View Post
I don't get it. What's the mechanism for a pardoned Flynn talking being dangerous/costly to Trump, while an unpardoned, angry Flynn talking not being dangerous/costly to Trump?
I think smartcooky's reasoning is that once he's been pardoned, he can tell the truth without fear of prosecution when asked, but if he lies when asked he can be prosecuted for that.

But if he's not pardoned, then he puts himself in jeopardy if he tells the truth or something.
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Old 28th October 2020, 07:26 PM   #1199
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think smartcooky's reasoning is that once he's been pardoned, he can tell the truth without fear of prosecution when asked, but if he lies when asked he can be prosecuted for that.

But if he's not pardoned, then he puts himself in jeopardy if he tells the truth or something.
In short, a pardon results in immunity from prosecution for the crimes he has been pardoned for (due to double jeopardy).It means he can implicate Trump in any crimes they were both involved in without risk to himself

This is why I doubt Manafort will ever be pardoned by Trump. He knows all about Trump's dealings in Russia.
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Old 28th October 2020, 09:22 PM   #1200
Beeyon
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 456
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
In short, a pardon results in immunity from prosecution for the crimes he has been pardoned for (due to double jeopardy).It means he can implicate Trump in any crimes they were both involved in without risk to himself

This is why I doubt Manafort will ever be pardoned by Trump. He knows all about Trump's dealings in Russia.
Wait, to be pardoned for those crimes involving Trump, Trump would have to name those crimes in the pardon. The Cheeto is dumb, but not "I pardon Michael Flynn for the time we killed a hooker in Vegas" dumb. If Trump pardons Flynn, it'll likely be specifically for the 1001 violation that he's currently on the hook for, which won't provide him cover for anything else. Not even the FARA stuff.

As a separate matter, you don't think a prosecutor in a Biden DoJ would be happy to give immunity in exchange for Manafort or Flynn giving them testimony against Trump? Again, why did Trump commute Stone's sentence? Because of true friendship, or because stone could've dished his dirt?
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