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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , environmental activists , Greta Thunberg

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Old 24th May 2020, 12:56 PM   #1921
theprestige
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Which implies that you have more criticisms, since there is no way you have been able to obfuscate your lack of support.
I think if you look at the thread really closely, you'll see a few subtle hints that I haven't been trying to obfuscate my lack of support.

Anyway, let's heed the mod box and focus on Greta's work, rather than on each other.

This new law being proposed in South Korea, for example. The lawmaker says she was inspired by Greta's work. What do you think of the proposed law, in the context of Greta's work?
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Old 24th May 2020, 02:43 PM   #1922
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This new law being proposed in South Korea, for example.
What new law?
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Old 24th May 2020, 02:52 PM   #1923
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
What new law?
Sorry, the policy proposal you're linked to. My bad.
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Old 24th May 2020, 02:54 PM   #1924
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In general, I think that the idea of decreasing carbon emissions is a good one. What about you?
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Old 24th May 2020, 04:06 PM   #1925
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sorry, the policy proposal you're linked to. My bad.
It's trash. at least according to Thunberg.

Quote:
“Net zero emissions by 2050” for the EU equals surrender. It means giving up. We don’t just need goals for just 2030 or 2050. We, above all, need them for 2020 and every following month and year to come.
Now that South Korea is a developed nation they're on an equal responsibility-for-solving-this-mess footing with the E.U.
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Old 25th May 2020, 06:33 AM   #1926
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
In general, I think that the idea of decreasing carbon emissions is a good one. What about you?
In general I think there's a time and a place for everything, including carbon emissions reductions.

Right now, I'm more interested in your particular take on this proposal. Beyond the general, what do you think of this proposal specifically, in the context of Greta's calls to action?
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Old 25th May 2020, 12:18 PM   #1927
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
In general, I think that the idea of decreasing carbon emissions is a good one. What about you?
What does that have to do with Greta's demands?
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Old 25th May 2020, 12:19 PM   #1928
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
What does that have to do with Greta's demands?
I'm not sure why you're asking me this.
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Old 25th May 2020, 12:24 PM   #1929
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It figures...

theprestige?

Anyone?
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Old 26th May 2020, 04:53 AM   #1930
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Oh, jeez, the millions of jobs in renewable energy fantasy.
depends if they go "all in" or not. Certainly a million jobs converting to renewable and regenerative infrastructure is well within the capacity of a country like SK. They have for example 350 thousand autoworkers +/-, and that's just one industry. There is little doubt that industry alone will go to electric vehicles quickly. How many extra jobs that would produce depends how quickly they grab market share. Right now sky's the limit.
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Old 26th May 2020, 05:21 AM   #1931
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Oh, jeez, the millions of jobs in renewable energy fantasy.

Is there reason to assume that they would be fewer than those in jobs in fossil fuel? Do you want one? Or du you just want to hang on to your fantasy?
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Old 26th May 2020, 10:38 AM   #1932
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
It figures...

theprestige?

Anyone?
Don't look at me.

It's a Greta thread Matthew started. He periodically bumps it with ostensibly Greta-related news. If he can't figure out why you'd be asking him about his topic, I doubt there's anything I can do to make sense of it.

Refusal to discuss Greta related issues, or even acknowledge relevance of their own posts, just looks like more Greta supporter shenanigans to me.

Maybe this whole thing is a misunderstanding, and nobody in this thread actually supports Greta to any significant degree.

Certainly right now it seems like Greta's critics are taking the subject a lot more seriously than her... supporters (pending clarification of the term, I guess).
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Old 26th May 2020, 10:23 PM   #1933
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
supporters (pending clarification of the term, I guess).
I've already said that I consider "supporters" to be appropriate. Did you miss that? Or are you just having a dig?
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Old 27th May 2020, 05:21 AM   #1934
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Thunberg criticizes Denmark - and she's right

Thunberg kritiserer Københavns spildevandsløsning (BT.dk, May 27, 2020)
Greta Thunberg langer ud efter Danmark (TV2.dk, May 27, 2020)
I still hope to see her criticize Sweden's pandemic response.
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Last edited by dann; 27th May 2020 at 06:42 AM.
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Old 27th May 2020, 12:55 PM   #1935
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Thunberg kritiserer Københavns spildevandsløsning (BT.dk, May 27, 2020)
Greta Thunberg langer ud efter Danmark (TV2.dk, May 27, 2020)
I still hope to see her criticize Sweden's pandemic response.
That doesn't look like anything that a crapload of money can't fix. Get on it Copenhagen and build yourself a new treatment plant using only renewable energy.
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Old 27th May 2020, 01:42 PM   #1936
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I've already said that I consider "supporters" to be appropriate. Did you miss that? Or are you just having a dig?
Not everything is about you, Arth.

My point here is simply that her supporters don't seem to be taking the topic very seriously, which is weird, and suggests that maybe they don't actually support her after all.

Example 1: MatthewBest started this thread. He posts Greta-related news in this thread. But ask him to discuss the material he's posting, in the thread he started, and he acts very confused about the topic and why anyone is asking his opinion.

Conclusion: MatthewBest isn't taking the topic seriously, and may not actually be much of a Greta supporter after all.

Example 2: You focus on issues of terminology that have already been addressed, missing or ignoring the substantive points being raised for discussion. Most recently: Do any of her supporters here actually take her activism seriously? If not, is it even fair to call them supporters? Does Greta even have any real support here?

Conclusion: You're not taking the topic seriously, and may not actually be much of a Greta supporter after all.

Personally, I think "fan" is a good descriptor for someone who's really enthusiastic about the idea of something, but not necessarily interested in a serious examination of that idea. Like a fan of pro wrestling, that really isn't interested in discussion of how fake and manufactured it is.

To be fair, a lot of fans also seriously appreciate the kayfabe, so it's not really correct to lump them all together like that. I guess I'm wondering where in this thread are the people who are enthusiastic about her activism but are also willing to seriously respond when people ask them what they think of it. Because I see a lot of people who are enthusiastic, but any attempt at serious discussion with them gets met with feigned ignorance, outright abuse, or attempted derails.
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Old 27th May 2020, 01:48 PM   #1937
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I still hope to see her criticize Sweden's pandemic response.
Why Greta, specifically?

What is it about being a 17 year old climate change activist that makes their opinion on pandemic administration so interesting and important to you?

Is that how she whiled away the hours of her transatlantic sailboat rides? Completing her Master of Epidemiology degree via correspondence? Can we at least see the abstract to her thesis?
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Old 27th May 2020, 02:12 PM   #1938
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not everything is about you, Arth.

My point here is simply that her supporters don't seem to be taking the topic very seriously, which is weird, and suggests that maybe they don't actually support her after all.

Example 1: MatthewBest started this thread. He posts Greta-related news in this thread. But ask him to discuss the material he's posting, in the thread he started, and he acts very confused about the topic and why anyone is asking his opinion.

Conclusion: MatthewBest isn't taking the topic seriously, and may not actually be much of a Greta supporter after all.

Example 2: You focus on issues of terminology that have already been addressed, missing or ignoring the substantive points being raised for discussion. Most recently: Do any of her supporters here actually take her activism seriously? If not, is it even fair to call them supporters? Does Greta even have any real support here?

Conclusion: You're not taking the topic seriously, and may not actually be much of a Greta supporter after all.

Personally, I think "fan" is a good descriptor for someone who's really enthusiastic about the idea of something, but not necessarily interested in a serious examination of that idea. Like a fan of pro wrestling, that really isn't interested in discussion of how fake and manufactured it is.

To be fair, a lot of fans also seriously appreciate the kayfabe, so it's not really correct to lump them all together like that. I guess I'm wondering where in this thread are the people who are enthusiastic about her activism but are also willing to seriously respond when people ask them what they think of it. Because I see a lot of people who are enthusiastic, but any attempt at serious discussion with them gets met with feigned ignorance, outright abuse, or attempted derails.
Cherry picking logic fallacy. For example ME! I have responded with a few serious posts on this thread, and even taken action on more than one level, where appropriate and within my skill set. In fact I have taken material made available by Greta and edited into my personal AGW project.[1][2] I have also written serious answers to topics brought up on this thread by you and others, not only here but on other platforms as well.[3] I am also sequestering a significant portion of my own personal carbon footprint by simply trialing in the real world my research in how to offset carbon emissions.Real world hands on. MY HANDS!

That's three levels of support for Greta as a brave campaigner, rather than some deeply disturbed child who isn't doing any real world good.

That just one person on this thread that you completely ignored when cherry picking your conclusion that nothing real is being done and that like pro wrestling it may all be fake and manufactured.

That's plenty enough to falsify your cherry picked conclusion. But more importantly, in any given group of people I will bet you'll be able to find similar. There will be plenty who just like the idea of something but no real understanding how to do it, another group with a medium level of expertise, some with expert knowledge, and even those like me willing to put their money where their mouth is and actually do something real. What % is in each group matters little, because all that matters is if Greta is bravely campaigning to improve those %'s or not. And here is a great example where she has!
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Old 27th May 2020, 09:51 PM   #1939
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My point here is simply that her supporters don't seem to be taking the topic very seriously, which is weird, and suggests that maybe they don't actually support her after all.
And once again, who the hell are you to judge what level of support anyone should or should not be demonstrating?
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Old Yesterday, 02:12 AM   #1940
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Why Greta, specifically?

She is Swedish, is aware of the virus (she thinks she and her father already had it, but due to Sweden's miserable strategy, she was never tested), and she is aware of what is going on in the world.

Quote:
What is it about being a 17 year old climate change activist that makes their opinion on pandemic administration so interesting and important to you?

She has an a lot of followers, so it might make a difference, particularly in Sweden where a change of corona strategy is really needed. Her age has nothing to do with that, neither does her lack of education. You are a lot older than her and probably have some kind of college degree, but you are not wiser and your opinion doesn't matter at all.

Quote:
Is that how she whiled away the hours of her transatlantic sailboat rides? Completing her Master of Epidemiology degree via correspondence? Can we at least see the abstract to her thesis?

How many degrees did you write while whining about her here?
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Old Yesterday, 09:30 AM   #1941
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RBF
Quote:
That just one person on this thread that you completely ignored when cherry picking your conclusion that nothing real is being done and that like pro wrestling it may all be fake and manufactured.
I don't think theprestige has ever claimed nothing real is being done by anyone.

The claim is basically, that nothing significant is being done ( other than protesting ) as a result of Greta's demands.

The repeated question has been; " How do you measure the success of her activism. "

The answers seem to be almost anything, except any evidence that any substantive action is being taken to meet her demands.
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Old Yesterday, 09:42 AM   #1942
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Why Greta, specifically?

What is it about being a 17 year old climate change activist that makes their opinion on pandemic administration so interesting and important to you?

Is that how she whiled away the hours of her transatlantic sailboat rides? Completing her Master of Epidemiology degree via correspondence? Can we at least see the abstract to her thesis?
Greta is pure virgin (presumably) maiden. Only her good pure heart can liberate us from the lies of Tegnell the Evil One and into the light of Marxist-Leninism.
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Old Yesterday, 09:53 AM   #1943
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
RBF


I don't think theprestige has ever claimed nothing real is being done by anyone.

The claim is basically, that nothing significant is being done ( other than protesting ) as a result of Greta's demands.

The repeated question has been; " How do you measure the success of her activism. "

The answers seem to be almost anything, except any evidence that any substantive action is being taken to meet her demands.

How do you measure the success of theprestige's posts? And where is the evidence for that success?
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old Yesterday, 10:05 AM   #1944
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What does that have to do with anything?

As far as I know, he is not engaged in activism, and making demands of world governments, but I'm sure he can clarify that.
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Old Yesterday, 10:23 AM   #1945
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
And once again, who the hell are you to judge what level of support anyone should or should not be demonstrating?
I don't understand this question.

What criteria do you think someone needs to meet, to have standing to evaluate the propriety and efficacy of an activist's call to action?

I had assumed that being alive on this planet was more than adequate.
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Old Yesterday, 11:56 AM   #1946
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
She is Swedish, is aware of the virus (she thinks she and her father already had it, but due to Sweden's miserable strategy, she was never tested), and she is aware of what is going on in the world.




She has an a lot of followers, so it might make a difference, particularly in Sweden where a change of corona strategy is really needed. Her age has nothing to do with that, neither does her lack of education. You are a lot older than her and probably have some kind of college degree, but you are not wiser and your opinion doesn't matter at all.




How many degrees did you write while whining about her here?
Heh. I was going to call out the unnecessary personalization, but to be fair I was getting kinda snarky there. Sorry about that.

Anyway, your reasoning is that she's Swedish and popular, basically.

Are you equally interested in the opinion of Swedish football star Zlatan Ibrahimović?
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Old Yesterday, 04:20 PM   #1947
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I am not interested in football, or sports, for that matter, at all, so my answer would be no.
A lot of people are, however, and for that reason alone, I would appreciate it if he got up and explained to his fans that the Swedish coronavirus strategy kills people.

Does Zlatan have a degree in pandemic control? I know too little about him to know for sure, but I would be very surprised if he did. But that also isn't the reason why his fans listen to him and why some of them might understand a point explained by him because they listen to him and not to any of the Swedish pandemic experts who have started rebelling against the Swedish consensus culture in the case of the corona pandemic.

So since he probably isn't an epidemiologist, an alternative could be that he told his fans why they should listen to one of the sensible epidemiologists - instead of to the one that their parents are watch every night on SVT.

Would he do that? I don't know since I know nothing at all about him or about his attitude to the pandemic response or if he even has an opinion about it.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old Yesterday, 04:30 PM   #1948
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I am not interested in football, or sports, for that matter, at all, so my answer would be no.
Your interest in the person wasn't part of your reason for wanting Greta to speak up. Only the person's Swedishness and popularity. Your answer would be a non sequitur.

Quote:
A lot of people are, however, and for that reason alone, I would appreciate it if he got up and explained to his fans that the Swedish coronavirus strategy kills people.
That makes sense, and is consistent with your criteria for wanting Greta to speak up. Thanks.

Quote:
Does Zlatan have a degree in pandemic control? I know too little about him to know for sure, but I would be very surprised if he did. But that also isn't the reason why his fans listen to him and why some of them might understand a point explained by him because they listen to him and not to any of the Swedish pandemic experts who have started rebelling against the Swedish consensus culture in the case of the corona pandemic.

So since he probably isn't an epidemiologist, an alternative could be that he told his fans why they should listen to one of the sensible epidemiologists - instead of to the one that their parents are watch every night on SVT.
Now you're just belaboring the point. We already established that subject-matter expertise is not one of your criteria for this. Why go on about it?

Quote:
Would he do that? I don't know since I know nothing at all about him or about his attitude to the pandemic response or if he even has an opinion about it.
Knowing much about the person also wasn't a criteria for wanting Greta to speak up. All you need to know is that they're Swedish and popular. Are you wondering if Zlatan Ibrahimović is sufficiently Swedish and popular to meet your standard?
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Old Yesterday, 09:06 PM   #1949
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Communists have no shame do they? Now they are trying to turn our precious innocent children against us!
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And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann
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Old Yesterday, 09:28 PM   #1950
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't understand this question.

What criteria do you think someone needs to meet, to have standing to evaluate the propriety and efficacy of an activist's call to action?

I had assumed that being alive on this planet was more than adequate.
I don't set criteria and demand that people meet them because I am not a judgy... person.
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Last edited by arthwollipot; Yesterday at 09:28 PM. Reason: Apologies if you saw that. It was uncalled for.
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Old Yesterday, 09:31 PM   #1951
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Communists have no shame do they? Now they are trying to turn our precious innocent children against us!
It may be true that communists in many cases use environmental agenda as cover for promoting social changes that can not stand on their own merits. However, it is an equally flawed strategy by conservatives to equate the environmental concern as equivalent to the social agenda. In fact it is falling into the trap!

The whole reason many communists try to attach their agenda to ecological/environmental issues is because the ecological issue effects everyone left or right. So they can pick up indirect support from people effected by the ecological issue who would never otherwise directly support their social agenda. It's sometimes called piggybacking and piggybacking is sometimes used by conservatives as well.

Greta was quite right to criticize the left for muddying the water with these sorts of underhanded tactics, even when they were ostensibly in favor of strong AGW mitigation policy. Because while ecological issue might gain the communists a few votes they otherwise wouldn't have gotten, it does far more harm to the chances of actually passing meaningful AGW policy.
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Old Today, 02:52 AM   #1952
dann
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Communists have no shame do they? Now they are trying to turn our precious innocent children against us!

So far, I haven't seen any communists do that. I think you are getting your fantasies confused with what is actually happening in Sweden: If your "precious innocent children" are turning against you, it's probably because you are letting their grandparents die.

Your obsession with innocence and purity is probably not good for you:

Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Greta is pure virgin (presumably) maiden. Only her good pure heart can liberate us from the lies of Tegnell the Evil One and into the light of Marxist-Leninism.
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Last edited by dann; Today at 02:59 AM.
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Old Today, 03:13 AM   #1953
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Your interest in the person wasn't part of your reason for wanting Greta to speak up. Only the person's Swedishness and popularity. Your answer would be a non sequitur.

You are lying deliberately, aren't you?

Originally Posted by dann View Post
She is Swedish, is aware of the virus (she thinks she and her father already had it, but due to Sweden's miserable strategy, she was never tested), and she is aware of what is going on in the world.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That makes sense, and is consistent with your criteria for wanting Greta to speak up. Thanks.

My actual criteria, or the ones you made up with your "only"?

Quote:
Now you're just belaboring the point. We already established that subject-matter expertise is not one of your criteria for this. Why go on about it?

You are right. I never claimed that expertise is one of my criteria for this. You are the one who seems to obsess about this. Could it be because you are embarrassed by a president who abhors expertise when it could be of use in an effective pandemic response? Could that be the reason why you are obsessing about Greta Thunberg being in a TV show?

Quote:
Knowing much about the person also wasn't a criteria for wanting Greta to speak up. All you need to know is that they're Swedish and popular. Are you wondering if Zlatan Ibrahimović is sufficiently Swedish and popular to meet your standard?

No, it wasn't. Did I claim that it was? Now you are just repeating your lie. Until you mentioned him and I looked him up, I didn't even know that he was Swedish, and his degree of popularity is still unknown to me. I am not quite sure what you mean with "sufficiently Swedish": Are you suggesting that because his name doesn't sound Swedish, his Swedishness should be doubted? It seems to very similar to the situation when a former president in your country wasn't considered to be American enough because his name sounded Middle Eastern.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old Today, 05:23 AM   #1954
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Communists have no shame do they? Now they are trying to turn our precious innocent children against us!
Seriously, though, I thought that was a known property of communists.
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