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Old 24th May 2020, 01:52 PM   #1201
The Man
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post

Under the money system conservation has no goal, just exploitation for profit has a goal.

They aren't mutually exclusive, exploitation for profit requires something exploitable which is, by that aspect, conducive to conservation.

Quote:
Nikita Khrushchev

When you are skinning your customers, you should leave some skin on to heal, so that you can skin them again.

From logging to fishing and water to wildlife conservation for sustainable future profit is just a natural consideration.
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Old 24th May 2020, 02:48 PM   #1202
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Under the money system conservation has no goal, just exploitation for profit has a goal.
You might ask OPEC or DeBeers about that. They worked out long, long ago that restricting the supply of a limited resource, like oil or diamonds, raises its price and increases their profits.

From the customer's point of view, high prices stop them using as much of a resource as they might like. Make it free and they'll use more.

Your plan does nothing whatsoever to encourage conservation.
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Old 24th May 2020, 08:17 PM   #1203
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Under the system of money the goal of conservation is profit, they create scarcity to rise the price and they plant trees for more profit. If you stop it you have a différent point of view like making goods repairable or recyclable, to use different products to save what is rare, money profit is not an issue considered under the no money system. under the system of money these things can only be done if profitable if no by law.
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Old 25th May 2020, 05:39 AM   #1204
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Under the system of money the goal of conservation is profit, they create scarcity to rise the price and they plant trees for more profit.
Actually in the real world the "goal" of conservation is not necessarily profit since clearly a lot of conservation programs are extremely unprofitable.
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Old 25th May 2020, 05:42 AM   #1205
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Under the system of money the goal of conservation is profit, they create scarcity to rise the price and they plant trees for more profit. If you stop it you have a différent point of view like making goods repairable or recyclable, to use different products to save what is rare, money profit is not an issue considered under the no money system. under the system of money these things can only be done if profitable if no by law.
No.

Firstly, money is not the system. Trade is the system. Money is just a tool for making trade easier and more efficient.

Secondly, profit can be *one* motivation to conserve a limited resource. Nobody (except you) is pretending we live, or want to live, in a world of unfettered capitalism where profit is the only motivation.

Thirdly, there is nothing to prevent sensible and intelligent conservation measures being enacted in the current system. You might like to ask any of the current conservation groups, campaigners or experts whether they think life would be transformed for the better if we simply abolish money. At best, they might find a gentle way to say the notion is naive and not of any obvious benefit.
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Old 25th May 2020, 05:55 AM   #1206
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Here's a proposal: let's abolish questions.

Children find exams stressful and not everyone passes, causing real anguish to some. By abolishing questions, all this heartache is swept away at a stroke.

"Ask no questions, I'll tell no lies" goes the famous saying. By abolishing questions the amount of lying in the world is hugely diminished.

By abolishing questions, we can prevent anyone from asking awkward questions about the obvious flaws in radical proposals such as, for example, creating a better world simply by banning money.

I think everyone will agree that banning questions is a brilliant plan without flaws.
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Old 25th May 2020, 07:09 AM   #1207
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post

Under the money system conservation has no goal, just exploitation for profit has a goal.
Under your system, resource conservation is actively discouraged. Waste is an intended byproduct. A feature, not a bug.

Also, you once again trollishly avoided the discussion on how no money would somehow create more product when resources are limited.
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Old 25th May 2020, 02:06 PM   #1208
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I have no doubt that there are plenty of examples of economic greed leading to shortages and conservation disasters - the decline of great whales and some edible fish, for example. But it's not clear that this would be lessened if the resources were simply made available to anyone who wanted them, without economic penalty. As it is now, when a resource becomes too scarce for economic exploitation, the exploitation often stops. Money or not, if people wanted whale oil, and whales were there, what, other than cost, would have stopped them from wiping out the last of them?

Aside from this, there have been some notable conservation efforts made within the monetary framework, when it was discovered (in parts of Africa and in Baja California, for example) that conservation and eco-tourism actually provided more profit along with making life more pleasant. Large portions of Baja California are now among the best protected nature preserves in the world, with good records of abundant species recovery. This is an effort that requires both governmental action and the cooperation of inhabitants who have traditionally exploited the resources. It's based on a realistic assessment of value.

In addition, though I have no doubt the efforts have been less than they ought to be, there is a public relations aspect to some conservation, which leads at least some profit-making corporations to promote it as a way of improving their public image. It's fashionable to be green these days. If there were no motive for added profit, there would be no motive to waste energy on such efforts.

And finally, we ought not to forget that (again, perhaps not enough in the world, but something for sure) there are profit making corporations which, in order to insure their smooth and continued operation, operate with sustainable conservation in mind. While in the Amazon basin, the need for agriculture is destroying huge amounts of forest, one of the great biomass successes of North America has long been the sustainable forests maintained by United States paper manufacturers. Paper requires wood, of course, and while the earth may see trees as a vital part of the cycle of life, to paper manufacturers a tree is just a big vegetable. They plant them, grow them, tend them, cut them down, and re-plant them. They take up a lot of space, and take time to grow to useful size, and in the mean time they provide the world with a whole lot of what the world needs. Not just in the carbon cycle, but clean water, habitat for wild animals, and unsettled space.

Paper companies do this, in part, because they own the land, and sustainable tree farming is economically more profitable than marching across the country clearcutting and laying waste to the forests. Gaetan has made it clear that owning property simply for profit would be impermissible. What would keep potential homesteaders and subsistence farmers from taking over those woodlands and duplicating the disaster of the Amazon?

The answer, I suspect, is government. I think the only way Gaetan's pipe dream could hope to survive would be under a strict government with totalitarian power to regulate who does what and where.
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Old 25th May 2020, 07:23 PM   #1209
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
The answer, I suspect, is government. I think the only way Gaetan's pipe dream could hope to survive would be under a strict government with totalitarian power to regulate who does what and where.
Totalitarisme won't do what is common sense to do and if you have money in mind you lost the world.
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Old 25th May 2020, 10:17 PM   #1210
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Totalitarisme won't do what is common sense to do and if you have money in mind you lost the world.
Who decides what is common sense for whom?

I reintroduce the spoliation of the Amazon rain forest. From one standpoint it's a worldwide environmental disaster. From another standpoint it's poor people attempting to make a living farming. Whose common sense prevails?
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Old 26th May 2020, 06:53 AM   #1211
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Totalitarisme won't do what is common sense to do and if you have money in mind you lost the world.
Why won't it do what you say is common sense?

Maybe, rather than trollishly toss out meaningless drivel, you take the time to explain your ideas and the flaws within. "I just want to hear from the people who agree with me" is not how you flesh out ideas and make them more robust.
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Old 26th May 2020, 06:54 AM   #1212
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Who decides what is common sense for whom?

I reintroduce the spoliation of the Amazon rain forest. From one standpoint it's a worldwide environmental disaster. From another standpoint it's poor people attempting to make a living farming. Whose common sense prevails?
Just like the apartment complex, let the people decide. Take a vote, 50%+1 wins. Who gets to vote, let's vote on that too. Who gets to vote on that, it's turtles all the way down.
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Old 26th May 2020, 07:10 AM   #1213
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Who decides what is common sense for whom?

I reintroduce the spoliation of the Amazon rain forest. From one standpoint it's a worldwide environmental disaster. From another standpoint it's poor people attempting to make a living farming. Whose common sense prevails?
Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Why won't it do what you say is common sense?

Maybe, rather than trollishly toss out meaningless drivel, you take the time to explain your ideas and the flaws within. "I just want to hear from the people who agree with me" is not how you flesh out ideas and make them more robust.
It's worse than that, Gaetan's position has consistently been that he is simply expounding the words of Christ. While putting aside that he often flagrantly and apparently deliberately misrepresents the words attributed to Christ. He clearly doesn't have a problem with those interpretations as totalitarian edicts.

ETA: Hence the portrayal of them as simply being "common sense", which would itself preclude the need for some manifest god person having to come and explain it to people.
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Old 26th May 2020, 06:45 PM   #1214
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What is common sense is that we can't use product that can't be replaced then we can only achieve that in a ressource economy not in a money economy.
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Old 27th May 2020, 07:02 AM   #1215
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
What is common sense is that we can't use product that can't be replaced then we can only achieve that in a ressource economy not in a money economy.
Funny, we manage to do that in a "money economy"

As resources get rare, costs go up. So producers look for ways to lower their costs with alternate resources. Fun fact, one your not going to understand, but just because there is a rise in price doesn't mean there is more profit.

But in your fantasy world, there is no cost for resources, ergo no need to find alternatives, leading to shortages, and waste. But you won't address this, or even acknowledge it. Pretending resources will fart themselves into existence because someone called down to the job center and delivered that resource.
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Old 27th May 2020, 07:31 AM   #1216
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
What is common sense is that we can't use product that can't be replaced then we can only achieve that in a ressource economy not in a money economy.
Word salad is really tasty.
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Old 27th May 2020, 12:35 PM   #1217
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Totalitarisme won't do what is common sense to do and if you have money in mind you lost the world.
Were you trying to say that "totalitarian is me?" that very much fits in with both your underlying philosophy and your Yoda-speak schtick.
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Old 27th May 2020, 03:00 PM   #1218
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The money system make no sense because you have to consume to make people work to make money so that he can pay his bill then ressources are wasted, in a world of no money you just make what can be restored you don't have to consume to make the money economy work.
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Old 27th May 2020, 04:15 PM   #1219
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The money system make no sense because you have to consume to make people work to make money so that he can pay his bill then ressources are wasted, in a world of no money you just make what can be restored you don't have to consume to make the money economy work.
In your no money world people will not consume....

What the actual?
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Old Yesterday, 06:41 AM   #1220
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
… we can only achieve that in a ressource economy
You're not proposing a resource economy.

You're proposing a take-whatever-you-want economy.


Tell us how a resource economy works and then tell us why you believe abolishing money would lead to it.
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Old Yesterday, 06:42 AM   #1221
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The money system make no sense because you have to consume to make people work to make money so that he can pay his bill then ressources are wasted, in a world of no money you just make what can be restored you don't have to consume to make the money economy work.
There are plenty of people who manage to live without using money. go forth and sin no more.

Of course, it requires a bit of effort, so that is out. https://moneyless.org/
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Old Yesterday, 07:03 AM   #1222
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
You're proposing a take-whatever-you-want economy.
And, somehow, this will eliminate greed, and waste, and resources will be abundant.

When it's hamburger, people will only take what they are going to use. When it's money, people take all they can grab. Which is actually the opposite of what happens in real life. Put Cokes in a communal fridge and they disappear. Put cash in those same fridge, people don't take it.

http://news.mit.edu/2008/ariely-tt0409
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Old Yesterday, 10:08 AM   #1223
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See I'm a socialist. Like, an actual socialist. I dislike low regulation in capitalism and am strongly opposed to the privatisation of a lot of things.

I think removing money is at best inane and at worst suicidal.
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Old Yesterday, 03:57 PM   #1224
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The money system make no sense because you have to consume to make people work to make money so that he can pay his bill then ressources are wasted, in a world of no money you just make what can be restored you don't have to consume to make the money economy work.
I pray for your addled mind.
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Old Yesterday, 04:15 PM   #1225
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
See I'm a socialist. Like, an actual socialist. I dislike low regulation in capitalism and am strongly opposed to the privatisation of a lot of things.

I think removing money is at best inane and at worst suicidal.
Troll, to remove money is a good idea
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Old Yesterday, 04:19 PM   #1226
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Troll, to remove money is a good idea
But it sounds like a really dumb idea. Tell us why it's not dumb. Tell us how it could help.

Tell us the basics of how a "resource economy" works, and then tell us why abolishing money will create that.
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Old Yesterday, 04:26 PM   #1227
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During the past crisis people were unemployed and had no money to buy stuff to make people work, then the government borrowed from rich and bought stuff for them to reload the economy. Why they didn't abolished money right there? Because politicians are servants of rich people and they do anything to serve them like barons and duc serve kings.
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Old Today, 06:48 AM   #1228
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
During the past crisis people were unemployed and had no money to buy stuff to make people work, then the government borrowed from rich and bought stuff for them to reload the economy. Why they didn't abolished money right there? Because politicians are servants of rich people and they do anything to serve them like barons and duc serve kings.
They did not borrow from the rich. They borrowed from the future. Also, were unemployed? Still are, check the medias.

Abolishing money wouldn't have solved the problem. Let's use the example of toilet paper. The world was out, mostly, how would making it free summon it into existence? Money, the lack of, or existence of it, had zero impact on the availability of TP. You keep avoiding the question.

Why is it that you keep making proclamations rather than explanations? You have no idea how any of this works. Prove me wrong and explain something. Hell, explain anything you've said.
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