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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , 2018 elections , Arthur Jones , Dan Lipinski , Illinois elections , Illinois politics , Neo-Nazis , republican party

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Old 2nd April 2018, 05:09 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Except as I have said repeatedly he received a lot of political news on a national level for being a nazi. How many threads on here has their been about these other candidates? This is at least his second.
Did Fox News cover it? Research suggests that people who watch Fox News alone are often less well-informed than people who watch no news at all.

I have a good deal of sympathy with Fizil's position, but then the sheer size of US voting papers is a source of some wonderment for us Brits.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 03:29 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
A joke candidate is one thing, a freaking Nazi is another thing.
This makes the GOP look bad,no matter how much you are handwaving that fact away.
And as the GOP becomes the personal tool of one Donald J Trump,you will have a lot to handwave away until you finally understand that the GOP as it once was is dead and gone.
Hey when the official stance is "hey our voters are horribly uninformed and ignorant" and that is the best you can come up with? Yea that does look pretty bad. Though really accurate.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 05:03 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
There's far too much intellectualizing going on. We can all pretty much figure out where the votes come from. Deplorables and morons. If they'd looked at the ballot and were voting as Republicans, they didn't need to vote because he's unopposed, after all. "Look! There's a Republican. Must press button." That's pretty Pavlovian.
Originally Posted by Fizil View Post
Janice Schakowsky (D) ran unopposed in the Democratic primary for the 9th Congressional District. She got over 60,000 votes. Were the people who voted for her also morons?
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Had a quick check on her Wikipage and it doesn't mention any links to, never mind promoting Nazism?
Originally Posted by Fizil View Post
Your point being? Foolmewunz said we all know where his votes came from "deplorables and morons". My point was, does he think the same thing about the many thousands of people who voted for her when she was unopposed.
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Very slowly* That 20,000 people voting for a Nazi is bad.

*Even slower* That 60,000 people voting for an unopposed candidate that isn't a Nazi is not a logical "Whataboutism" counter to 20,000 people voting for a Nazi.

*Yet slower* That "Oh well it's okay because most people don't know who they are voting for" doesn't make it better.
Wow, the level of discourse in this place really has gone down. None of these posts after FMW's understands the points made by the post they respond to. Glorious.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 05:55 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Well I tell you what when the Democrats run a Nazi candidate we can test that theory.



20,000 people voted for him. In a democracy "voting" is the only source of support that matters.

20,000 people threw their hat in the ring for a Nazi. You can't make that not true.
WHOOSH! Three times and you still totally missed the point.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 06:46 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
WHOOSH! Three times and you still totally missed the point.
Will you count voting for him in the general election as an endorsement of a nazi by republican voters then or will it still be "you can't expect republican voters to be informed, they are clearly just ignorant not intentionally voting for a nazi"?

When does voting for a nazi become something you can hold against someone?
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Old 3rd April 2018, 07:16 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Will you count voting for him in the general election as an endorsement of a nazi by republican voters then or will it still be "you can't expect republican voters to be informed, they are clearly just ignorant not intentionally voting for a nazi"?

When does voting for a nazi become something you can hold against someone?
While I have been arguing that most of his votes were by the uninformed blindly checking the only box given them, I would certainly agree with you that if most Republicans vote for him in the General Election I would "hold it against them". There at least they would have a choice between voting for the person who isn't a Nazi versus the one who is. I would still expect him to get more votes than actual supporters due to the same uninformed partisan phenomenon, but by the time of the General Election I expect more people to be at least somewhat better informed about the candidates, even if they forget their names the day after the election. I would be surprised if he breaks 10,000 votes come the General Election, and if only supporters voted for him I would be surprised if he broke 5,000.

On the other hand, Trump is President of the United States......
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Old 3rd April 2018, 07:21 AM   #87
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I get that we all hate Nazis, but can someone spell out for me, in small words suitable for children, what exactly the Illinois Republican Party did wrong, here?

In your explanation, consider this: They've already conceded the district to the Democrats. Why should they care at all about the vicissitudes of an entirely inconsequential primary?
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Old 3rd April 2018, 07:22 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Fizil View Post
While I have been arguing that most of his votes were by the uninformed blindly checking the only box given them, I would certainly agree with you that if most Republicans vote for him in the General Election I would "hold it against them". There at least they would have a choice between voting for the person who isn't a Nazi versus the one who is. I would still expect him to get more votes than actual supporters due to the same uninformed partisan phenomenon, but by the time of the General Election I expect more people to be at least somewhat better informed about the candidates, even if they forget their names the day after the election. I would be surprised if he breaks 10,000 votes come the General Election, and if only supporters voted for him I would be surprised if he broke 5,000.

On the other hand, Trump is President of the United States......
I think this is a reasonable understanding of people. The GOP would be wise to endorse the Democrat in this election. The more votes this guy gets the worse it is for them but there are always voters on both sides that don't pay any attention until the day of and reflexively hit the R or the D. The GOP should start suppressing their on voters if they don't want ads in the fall featuring this guy.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 07:58 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I get that we all hate Nazis, but can someone spell out for me, in small words suitable for children, what exactly the Illinois Republican Party did wrong, here?

In your explanation, consider this: They've already conceded the district to the Democrats. Why should they care at all about the vicissitudes of an entirely inconsequential primary?
They allowed their party name to be implicated in an ideology that in theory they do not endorse. This gives observers the impression that they are moving towards, or at least supporting, these views.

Eta: in practical terms, you are right and a sophisticated observer would get what happened. But branding is a real thing, and enough of it will give credence to the belief that Republicans are closet nazis.

Last edited by Thermal; 3rd April 2018 at 08:04 AM.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 08:00 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I get that we all hate Nazis, but can someone spell out for me, in small words suitable for children, what exactly the Illinois Republican Party did wrong, here?
I don't see too many people blaming the party, republican voters for voting for a nazi seem to be the ones being blamed.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 08:52 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
They allowed their party name to be implicated in an ideology that in theory they do not endorse. This gives observers the impression that they are moving towards, or at least supporting, these views.

Eta: in practical terms, you are right and a sophisticated observer would get what happened. But branding is a real thing, and enough of it will give credence to the belief that Republicans are closet nazis.
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I don't see too many people blaming the party, republican voters for voting for a nazi seem to be the ones being blamed.
That's seems true to me. And the debate really seems to be about what fraction of those voters, voted for a random guy with an R after his name or NAZI with an R after his name. Who's worse the guy who's an ******* because he's oblivious to others or the guy whose an ******* because he deliberately made the choice to be an *******?

Either way, they're ********, and the GOP needs to minimize the number of them that show up to vote for a NAZI with an R after his name.

Last edited by ahhell; 3rd April 2018 at 08:54 AM.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 08:55 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
They allowed their party name to be implicated in an ideology that in theory they do not endorse.
Implicated to whom? Anybody who takes a moment to look at the situation understands what happened and sees that the implication is baseless.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 09:04 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I don't see too many people blaming the party, republican voters for voting for a nazi seem to be the ones being blamed.
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
That's seems true to me. And the debate really seems to be about what fraction of those voters, voted for a random guy with an R after his name or NAZI with an R after his name. Who's worse the guy who's an ******* because he's oblivious to others or the guy whose an ******* because he deliberately made the choice to be an *******?

Either way, they're ********, and the GOP needs to minimize the number of them that show up to vote for a NAZI with an R after his name.
I think we're having different conversations. A couple of us are arguing just the opposite of what you're stating.

The actual significance of robot-like loyalty to the party line is a nothingburger. The issue is that the Illinois GOP were asleep at the switch and have put themselves and their party in the embarrassing situation of having allowed toenail cheese to win the party nomination in a district in Illinois.

I don't read anything into the politics of the people who unnecessarily voted for him. I'm enjoying the humor. A further example of Republican incompetence. There are certain things we know in US politics. One is that people, or at least a certain number of them, will vote for a fire hydrant if it's on the party ticket. In this case, he's the only person running for the party nomination so the loyalists voted for him, not knowing or caring what he believes or doesn't believe.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 09:14 AM   #94
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I think it contributed the factor that the Democratic candidate is so on the political right, so the Republicans had to move even more rightwards. They obviously miscalculated with this Jones dude.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 09:16 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Implicated to whom? Anybody who takes a moment to look at the situation understands what happened and sees that the implication is baseless.
Yes, many reasonable people will see it that way. Some observers, who may be concerned that the GOP is leaning more hard right, will see this as ominous. The President was recently criticized for saying there were good people on both sides in Charlottesville. I'm sure he was attempting to appear impartial or at least optimistic, but it came across as Nazi sympathizing. Isn't there enough needless demonizing without actual nazis allowed to run with an implied Repuclican endorsement?
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Old 3rd April 2018, 09:23 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yes, many reasonable people will see it that way. Some observers, who may be concerned that the GOP is leaning more hard right, will see this as ominous. The President was recently criticized for saying there were good people on both sides in Charlottesville. I'm sure he was attempting to appear impartial or at least optimistic,
That seems pretty against everything Trump is and does. When has he ever made an effort to appear impartial? If that was the case why couldn't he reject David Dukes endorsement instead of hemming and hawing about it?

At best you can say he knew which side his supporters were on and wouldn't condemn his supporters like that.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 09:27 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
I think it contributed the factor that the Democratic candidate is so on the political right, so the Republicans had to move even more rightwards. They obviously miscalculated with this Jones dude.
Huh... so do you think that moving towards the right to try to draw Republican votes is a bad idea from Democrats because it'll just drive the right further to the right?
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Old 3rd April 2018, 09:53 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
I think it contributed the factor that the Democratic candidate is so on the political right, so the Republicans had to move even more rightwards. They obviously miscalculated with this Jones dude.
This wasn't a rightward move by the Republicans, though. This was simply not bothering to contest a primary election in a district where they weren't going to contest the general election.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 09:58 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yes, many reasonable people will see it that way. Some observers, who may be concerned that the GOP is leaning more hard right, will see this as ominous.
Why? Obviously nobody here sees it as ominous, since we understand the circumstances.

Quote:
The President was recently criticized for saying there were good people on both sides in Charlottesville. I'm sure he was attempting to appear impartial or at least optimistic, but it came across as Nazi sympathizing. Isn't there enough needless demonizing without actual nazis allowed to run with an implied Repuclican endorsement?
It's not an implied endorsement, though. Anyone who understands the primary process can see that.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 09:59 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That seems pretty against everything Trump is and does. When has he ever made an effort to appear impartial? If that was the case why couldn't he reject David Dukes endorsement instead of hemming and hawing about it?

At best you can say he knew which side his supporters were on and wouldn't condemn his supporters like that.
Look, the President convinced millions of voters that he was fit to best serve as President.

Donald...J...tapdancing...Trump.

He is really in the Oval Office. This is not a joke. I am done with hyper polarizing politics.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 10:07 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
They allowed their party name to be implicated in an ideology that in theory they do not endorse. This gives observers the impression that they are moving towards, or at least supporting, these views.

Eta: in practical terms, you are right and a sophisticated observer would get what happened. But branding is a real thing, and enough of it will give credence to the belief that Republicans are closet nazis.
In the UK, people have been expelled from political parties for bringing them into disrepute. As long as there is due process, I can't see why that can't work in the US.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 10:08 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Look, the President convinced millions of voters that he was fit to best serve as President.

Donald...J...tapdancing...Trump.

He is really in the Oval Office. This is not a joke. I am done with hyper polarizing politics.
And he has a history of embracing the very groups he was being called on to condemn after Charlottesville. Also if you paid attention he is back to saying that there are a lot of good people who just happen to be white supremacists.

I get it you don't care, but some do.

How can we try to get rid of polarizing politics when you have the party of Trump on one side? I guess we can all join with the president in attacking uppity athletes who do any kind of political statement.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 10:10 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
In the UK, people have been expelled from political parties for bringing them into disrepute. As long as there is due process, I can't see why that can't work in the US.
Because you have more political parties than we do. In the US everyone who registers as a democrat is a democrat and everyone who registers as a republican is a republican. Look at out President, he was never involved in the Republican party in any serious fashion until he became president.

So it isn't the party controlling these things as much, hence things like primaries to decide who will represent the republican party in the next election. The voters chose the nazi.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 10:12 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This wasn't a rightward move by the Republicans, though. This was simply not bothering to contest a primary election in a district where they weren't going to contest the general election.
Did they have enough time to promote a reasonable Republican with a reasonable chance of winning?

What I meant to say is that the Democratic incumbent already covers the moderate right sector of the electorate, so a more extreme candidate was a natural ... and Jones came to fill a void.

Anyway I want to believe Jones will manage to get some 20 or even 30% of the votes. In the current political environments, he would have to be a total cretin to fail to achieve that goal.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 10:14 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
In the UK, people have been expelled from political parties for bringing them into disrepute. As long as there is due process, I can't see why that can't work in the US.
I've heard of that, a vote of no confidence, I think? I gather that the American system assumes that it would create instability, with controlling parties voting out their opposition. Looking at the treatment of the Clintons, it certainly doesn't seem implausible that they might do just that.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 10:16 AM   #106
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Does anyone know why US political parties can't kick people out? Noted Klansmen David Duke has run for office as both a dem, until the late 80s when he switched to the reps. Neither party ever kicked him out. It was a big enough problem in the late 80s and early 90s that the GOP would have if they could.

Also, Trump thinks there are "very fine people" on both sides, not good people. Duh.

There's also footage of trump condemning duke and the Klan when Duke make his first big media splash. So either Trump is demented and forgot the Klan existed or he's blatantly pandering to racists(I'm still not convinced he cares about race except for votes and or profit, not that that would be better in some way.)
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Old 3rd April 2018, 10:22 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Does anyone know why US political parties can't kick people out? Noted Klansmen David Duke has run for office as both a dem, until the late 80s when he switched to the reps. Neither party ever kicked him out. It was a big enough problem in the late 80s and early 90s that the GOP would have if they could.

Also, Trump thinks there are "very fine people" on both sides, not good people. Duh.

There's also footage of trump condemning duke and the Klan when Duke make his first big media splash. So either Trump is demented and forgot the Klan existed or he's blatantly pandering to racists(I'm still not convinced he cares about race except for votes and or profit, not that that would be better in some way.)
You forgot senile as an option. He might have no idea who anyone is anymore broadly speaking.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 10:27 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Look, the President convinced millions of voters that he was fit to best serve as President.

Donald...J...tapdancing...Trump.

He is really in the Oval Office. This is not a joke. I am done with hyper polarizing politics.
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I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 10:36 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I've heard of that, a vote of no confidence, I think? I gather that the American system assumes that it would create instability, with controlling parties voting out their opposition. Looking at the treatment of the Clintons, it certainly doesn't seem implausible that they might do just that.
No, that is where parliament decides it doesn't want the government, and is quite a high hurdle to overcome.

I was talking about internal party matters.

Face it, even the BNP expelled their former leader.
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Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 3rd April 2018, 10:39 AM   #110
theprestige
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Did they have enough time to promote a reasonable Republican with a reasonable chance of winning?
It's an overwhelmingly Democratic district. The Republicans don't really have the votes to win the general election. Why would they want to waste time and money on an empty gesture?

Quote:
What I meant to say is that the Democratic incumbent already covers the moderate right sector of the electorate, so a more extreme candidate was a natural ... and Jones came to fill a void.
The only void was the party not bothering to put forward a candidate for an election they wouldn't win anyway. Jones was not a "more extreme" candidate. Just a vanity candidate.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 10:39 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And he has a history of embracing the very groups he was being called on to condemn after Charlottesville. Also if you paid attention he is back to saying that there are a lot of good people who just happen to be white supremacists.

I get it you don't care, but some do.

How can we try to get rid of polarizing politics when you have the party of Trump on one side? I guess we can all join with the president in attacking uppity athletes who do any kind of political statement.
You couldn't be more wrong. The President is in office because of hyperpolarizing, and i care a great deal. The more we polarize, the worse it will likely become, till we have no sensible choices left. Of all the people on God's green footstool, we have Donald Trump serving as our Chief Executive. We are at the extreme of silliness. I'm dialing down the rhetoric and will do my part to drag things back to discussion of reasonable candidates, positions, etc
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Old 3rd April 2018, 10:40 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Are you comfortable with Trump's encouragement of bigotry?

Dudalb's point isn't that the GOP is powerless, it's that the party of Lincoln (or even Reagan) is now the party of Putin.
Reagan is turning over in his grave at what the GOP has become.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 10:43 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You couldn't be more wrong. The President is in office because of hyperpolarizing, and i care a great deal. The more we polarize, the worse it will likely become, till we have no sensible choices left. Of all the people on God's green footstool, we have Donald Trump serving as our Chief Executive. We are at the extreme of silliness. I'm dialing down the rhetoric and will do my part to drag things back to discussion of reasonable candidates, positions, etc
And dialing down the rhetoric means we have to take their alternate facts seriously and stop using reality as our guide.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 10:47 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You couldn't be more wrong. The President is in office because of hyperpolarizing, and i care a great deal. The more we polarize, the worse it will likely become, till we have no sensible choices left. Of all the people on God's green footstool, we have Donald Trump serving as our Chief Executive. We are at the extreme of silliness. I'm dialing down the rhetoric and will do my part to drag things back to discussion of reasonable candidates, positions, etc
One of my real fears is that the Progressive Wing of the Democratic Party..which is showing every sign of becoming a "Tea Party Of The Left"..
will decide that over the top rhetoric and Trump style hyperolarizing is what works,and we will be treated to what amounts to a Left Wing Bizarro version of Trumpism. Some of the progressives are already using the term "DINO"..Democrat In Name Only ..to describe anybody more centrists or moderate then them.
At which point I will actively work for a viable Third Party, to be made of both Ex Democrats and Ex Republicans who have had it with the hard line ideolgues on both sides of the isle.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 10:52 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Reagan is turning over in his grave at what the GOP has become.
At this point it'd be profitable to install a turbine around him to generate electricity.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 10:53 AM   #116
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From what I have read, the Neo Nazi had a history of trying to get the GOP nod in that district, and the Illinois GOP knew it,and failed to act. Even if there is some logic to not wasting resources in a district where you have little chance to win,this Illinois distrect was one of the exceptions where they should have just paid the bills and recruited somebody to run against him. The Illinois GOP failed to do this,and that is why many in the National GOP Have a low opinion of the Illinois GOP leadership at the moment.
And, sadly, a lot of those 20'000 people just voted for the guy because he was a Republican,without even inquiring about him. It's the Mickey Mouse syndrome at work.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 11:00 AM   #117
Thermal
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And dialing down the rhetoric means we have to take their alternate facts seriously and stop using reality as our guide.
Not at all. The reality we can take as our guide can be a reasonable one

Eta: you actually just gave a great example of leaping to the extreme, BTW

Last edited by Thermal; 3rd April 2018 at 11:05 AM.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 11:02 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Does anyone know why US political parties can't kick people out?
They can kick people out, though. Here's how it works:
  1. All the people who want to represent their party for a political office announce their intentions and describe their platforms.
  2. The party holds a primary election, in which all the voters registered with the party cast their vote for whichever candidate they think best represents them for that office.
  3. The winner of that vote becomes the party's candidate to represent them against candidates from other parties in the general election
  4. In scenarios where the party does not care to contest the general election, they may decide not to pursue or promote anyone for the primary election.
  5. Since the primary election happens anyway, there's an opportunity for any old jackass to get enough protest/troll/ignorant votes to win the primary and become the party's "representative" candidate. This doesn't really matter, though, since they're going to lose the general anyway.
  6. The national party can't tell state and local parties who's allowed to compete in their local primaries. And the national party can't contradict the results of a local primary election.

Basically what it boils down to is that each local party is an independent organization, and they conduct a vote of their members to decide which self-styled "republican" gets to represent them in the general election (and in office if they win).

There are obvious problems with this arrangement, but the perfect is the enemy of the good as they say. I'd be very interested in any improvements you might think to suggest.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 11:03 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
they should have just paid the bills and recruited somebody to run against him.
WHY?
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Old 3rd April 2018, 11:16 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
WHY?
I don't see how this is not obvious. It isn't about this district, which was going to go to the Democrat in November anyways. It is about public relations, and image. It is about how the Democrats can now beat the Republicans over the head with this because, as should be obvious from this thread, it looks really bad. It doesn't matter what the details are, just like the average primary voter didn't bother to worry about whether they were voting for a Nazi, the average fence-sitter isn't going to bother to look into the details of this either. Instead they are going to be targeted with ads pointing to this Nazi as representative of the Republican party. This can affect other races. Races where the Republicans are more competitive, and are running candidates they hope will win.

That is why the Illinois GOP should have made sure to have a real candidate for the primary.

Last edited by Fizil; 3rd April 2018 at 11:18 AM.
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