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Tags Venezuela incidents , Venezuela issues , Venezuela politics

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Old 19th May 2019, 05:23 AM   #1241
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
And I bet that, at the time, you were always telling people how great Chavez was, weren't you?
If Maduro is so inept and corrupt and even has "allowed (?!) the infrastructure to crumble", it is really hard to explain why embargos, threats, staged coups are necessary. If 'command economies' are so inefficient, why aren't they simply allowed to die on their own? Why do they have to be bombed or invaded or at the very least harassed and blockaded in order to prove the point?
I think the Chinese experiment since the late 70's should be evidence enough of the relative inefficiency of command economies.
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Old 19th May 2019, 11:33 AM   #1242
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No, it does not.
What do you call this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_dollar_policy
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Old 19th May 2019, 11:42 AM   #1243
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I think the Chinese experiment since the late 70's should be evidence enough of the relative inefficiency of command economies.
I don't think anyone's arguing that command economies are overall more efficient than ones where there's an element of "market anarchy", but just that they're not so inefficient that they'll definitely eventually collapse on their own.
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Old 19th May 2019, 01:33 PM   #1244
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The US is using economic tools to maintain a strong exchange rate for the dollar, via market forces.

China literally sets the exchange rate of the renminbi by government fiat.
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Old 19th May 2019, 01:44 PM   #1245
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The US activists that acted as human shields in the Washington Embassy have been kicked out and the property raided late this week by the police. Which now has unmasked, if anybody needed some more proof, the US as a completely rogue nation with zero respect for international law.
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Old 19th May 2019, 01:47 PM   #1246
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I have zero respect for dictatorship. Nations may recognize other nations run by dictators, but I do not have to recognize them as valid.

They are giant hostage situations as far as I am concerned.
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Old 19th May 2019, 01:54 PM   #1247
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
I have zero respect for dictatorship. Nations may recognize other nations run by dictators, but I do not have to recognize them as valid.

They are giant hostage situations as far as I am concerned.

But you have zero clue about the Venezuelan political system as well, which is not a dictatorship. So there's no reason to concern us with your baseless opinion.
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Old 20th May 2019, 01:55 AM   #1248
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
But you have zero clue about the Venezuelan political system as well, which is not a dictatorship.
Venezuela has been an official dictatorship since at least 2017, when the Supreme court suspended the (opposition-dominated) national assembly and took over the legislative function. The fact the ruling was reversed a few days in light of the public uproar later changes nothing, all the judges who supported the change should be replaced immediately, if Venezuela was to remain a democracy.

You can move the date earlier, to the lame-duck session of the former parliament that voted to cede much parliamentary authority to the president. You can also argue it was a hickup by the hideously incompetent political court and Venezuela remained a democracy until the illegal Constitutional Assebmbly took over in late 2017 and stripped the democratically elected but opposition-dominated parliament of all powers for two years, so they can 'write the new constitution' - which they haven't done of course.

August 2017 is the very last date you can even argue Venezuela can still be considered a democracy. It can be argued with some merit the whole thing died much earlier, during the political purges of 2002 for example, but after the Constitutional Assembly took over in 2017 there is no argument left that Venezuela is anything but a dictatorship.

Sorry to have blown your little bubble to bits, CE. I have a tendency to do that when ignorant people spurt nonesense.

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Old 20th May 2019, 02:07 AM   #1249
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
The US activists that acted as human shields in the Washington Embassy have been kicked out and the property raided late this week by the police. Which now has unmasked, if anybody needed some more proof, the US as a completely rogue nation with zero respect for international law.
Most interesting thing about this case is that the Pro-Maduro holdouts that were kicked out were all American nationals, while the Pro-Guido demonstrators that surrounded the embassy were all actual Venezuelan nationals. The joys of ignorant American activists interfering in another country's affairs!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...=.4e37a26bdfc7
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Old 20th May 2019, 03:09 AM   #1250
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I don't think anyone's arguing that command economies are overall more efficient than ones where there's an element of "market anarchy", but just that they're not so inefficient that they'll definitely eventually collapse on their own.
Okay, I can agree that they won't necessarily collapse on their own. But again I think the Chinese example shows pretty clearly the disparity in the efficiency between the two systems.

ETA I'm not sure where anyone said that they necessarily collapse on their own. Wasn't it dann saying that he doesn't understand why we don't just leave them to collapse on their own if they are as inefficient as we claim? The answer is that while they are inefficient, we don't necessarily expect them to collapse. They can just go chugging along leaving their citizens in poverty for decades.
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Last edited by Roboramma; 20th May 2019 at 03:12 AM.
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Old 20th May 2019, 03:16 AM   #1251
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I don't think anyone's arguing that command economies are overall more efficient than ones where there's an element of "market anarchy"
I am. Though this is probably not the place for that discussion.
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Old 20th May 2019, 03:42 AM   #1252
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Okay, I can agree that they won't necessarily collapse on their own. But again I think the Chinese example shows pretty clearly the disparity in the efficiency between the two systems.
China hasn't been a command economy since late 1970s. It's now a weird corporate-dictatorial model, with heavy state support for domestic enterprises and considerable state enterprises. These are ineffecient and held up mainly by unsuistainable spending by local governments. China has sought to export the misery lately, calling it "road and belt initiative". It's a debt trap in all but name, it has proven such in just about all the cases nad has zero success stories thus far, but Chinese government tends to ensure the partners keep their mouth shut.

I think 1930s Italy comes closest, but it didn't go nearly as far as 2010s China did. The system is effective, if there is a large government behind it all. Comparing this to the Venezuelan omnishables is a tad wrong. Venezuela featured an oil rent economy coupled with rampant borrow and spend economy during the boom years. There was no overall master plan or anything, just throwing money left, right and center, while aiming for the pockets of the few - a true kleptocracy if there ever was one.

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Old 20th May 2019, 06:58 AM   #1253
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Okay, I can agree that they won't necessarily collapse on their own. But again I think the Chinese example shows pretty clearly the disparity in the efficiency between the two systems.

ETA I'm not sure where anyone said that they necessarily collapse on their own. Wasn't it dann saying that he doesn't understand why we don't just leave them to collapse on their own if they are as inefficient as we claim? The answer is that while they are inefficient, we don't necessarily expect them to collapse. They can just go chugging along leaving their citizens in poverty for decades.
Well, this line of discussion started with someone saying on the last page:

Quote:
TO admit the the Maduro regime has wrecked Venezuls's economy would be to admit that the classic Marxist pattern of a command economy does not work. Can't have that.
The idea is that the country is ending because it's a "command economy".

The other hypothesis is that the country's is not even close to a "command economy", and the primary economic mismanagement was/is the "oil monoculture" aspect, so when global oil prices fell, the nation was sent into a small crisis, which was then grotesquely amplified by sanctions and other "economic warfare" measures. Like:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/steveha.../#265d6e9d4711

Quote:
The U.S. Declares Economic War Against Venezuela
Quote:
For some time now, the United States has been using Venezuela’s vulnerabilities to engage in a low-grade economic war. Instead of military action, the U.S. has imposed selected economic sanctions against certain Venezuelans. These have amounted to slaps on the wrist, with threats of worse to come. But, as of January 28, 2019, the U.S. has declared a full-scale economic assault. Indeed, it declared an embargo against Petróleos de Venezuela (PDVSA)—the country’s state-owned oil company that controls the world’s largest oil reserves and produces virtually all of Venezuela’s foreign exchange.
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Old 20th May 2019, 07:08 AM   #1254
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The other hypothesis is that the country's is not even close to a "command economy", and the primary economic mismanagement was/is the "oil monoculture" aspect, so when global oil prices fell, the nation was sent into a small crisis, which was then grotesquely amplified by sanctions and other "economic warfare" measures.

Well summarized. People shouldn't forget that it was hopey-changey guy Obama in 2015 who declared Venezuela a "national security threat" to the United States, something so laughable it isn't even funny anymore.

In that article you can also read about the "socialist-dominated" National Assembly. Which now isn't "socialist-dominated" anymore but has an opposition majority including a few seats for Random Guydo's extremist micro party. I wonder how that happened. Some strange kind of dictatorship there.
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Old 20th May 2019, 11:46 AM   #1255
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The idea is that the country is ending because it's a "command economy".
Or because it's a poorly run command economy.

Which is an inherent defect of command economies, they take really complex economic issues and tries to control them by edict. While Capitalism may have it's issues, it is a more organic process.

Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The other hypothesis is that...
You realize that reasons why something happens are not mutually exclusive, right? Anything that happens can have multiple contributing factors, and the existence of one doesn't prove that other factors didn't also contribute.

So absolutely, an oil based mono-culture economy is terrible if the price of oil drops, but that contributes to the damage cause by lack of maintaining the infrastructure, price controls, corruption and mismanagement that has also contributed to the collapse.
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Old 20th May 2019, 12:44 PM   #1256
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Originally Posted by Stylesjl View Post
Most interesting thing about this case is that the Pro-Maduro holdouts that were kicked out were all American nationals, while the Pro-Guido demonstrators that surrounded the embassy were all actual Venezuelan nationals. The joys of ignorant American activists interfering in another country's affairs!



https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...=.4e37a26bdfc7

Just running through the names and Kevin Zeese, Margaret Flowers, Adrienne Pine and David Paul sound Venezuelan to me.
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Old 20th May 2019, 01:11 PM   #1257
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Just running through the names and Kevin Zeese, Margaret Flowers, Adrienne Pine and David Paul sound Venezuelan to me.

I could imagine that there are some similarities between Cubans hanging out in Miami and Venezuelans hanging out at the DC Embassy. I could even imagine that I posted a video showing them in their unfiltered mindset, calling independent reporters "subhumans" and "whores".
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Old 20th May 2019, 01:14 PM   #1258
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I think the Chinese experiment since the late 70's should be evidence enough of the relative inefficiency of command economies.
No that the Soviet Union had not demonstrated that more then adequately a long time before that......

So we are back to "A Command Economy is a wonderful idea, just the right people have not been in charge" routine....
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Old 20th May 2019, 01:16 PM   #1259
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
China hasn't been a command economy since late 1970s. It's now a weird corporate-dictatorial model, with heavy state support for domestic enterprises and considerable state enterprises. These are ineffecient and held up mainly by unsuistainable spending by local governments. China has sought to export the misery lately, calling it "road and belt initiative". It's a debt trap in all but name, it has proven such in just about all the cases nad has zero success stories thus far, but Chinese government tends to ensure the partners keep their mouth shut.

I think 1930s Italy comes closest, but it didn't go nearly as far as 2010s China did. The system is effective, if there is a large government behind it all. Comparing this to the Venezuelan omnishables is a tad wrong. Venezuela featured an oil rent economy coupled with rampant borrow and spend economy during the boom years. There was no overall master plan or anything, just throwing money left, right and center, while aiming for the pockets of the few - a true kleptocracy if there ever was one.

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CHina has been described as a CINO country; Communist In Name Only.
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Old 20th May 2019, 01:19 PM   #1260
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
CHina has been described as a CINO country; Communist In Name Only.
China is more fascist than communist these days.
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Old 21st May 2019, 05:22 PM   #1261
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
China is more fascist than communist these days.
If you pay attention to the part of the definition of fascism that talks about the alliance between government and business, then yes, very much so.
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Old 21st May 2019, 06:10 PM   #1262
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I don't think anyone's arguing that command economies are overall more efficient than ones where there's an element of "market anarchy", but just that they're not so inefficient that they'll definitely eventually collapse on their own.
It's not so much "inefficient" as "incompetent".
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Old 21st May 2019, 06:17 PM   #1263
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
If you pay attention to the part of the definition of fascism that talks about the alliance between government and business, then yes, very much so.
"Alliance."
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Old 22nd May 2019, 06:15 AM   #1264
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Or because it's a poorly run command economy.

Which is an inherent defect of command economies, they take really complex economic issues and tries to control them by edict. While Capitalism may have it's issues, it is a more organic process.



You realize that reasons why something happens are not mutually exclusive, right? Anything that happens can have multiple contributing factors, and the existence of one doesn't prove that other factors didn't also contribute.
This does not describe Venezuela, though:

https://www.britannica.com/topic/command-economy

Quote:
the means of production are publicly owned and economic activity is controlled by a central authority that assigns quantitative production goals and allots raw materials to productive enterprises. In such a system, determining the proportion of total product used for investment rather than consumption becomes a centrally made political decision. After this decision has been made, the central planners work out the assortment of goods to be produced and the quotas for each enterprise.
It does describe the former USSR and N Korea.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 07:54 AM   #1265
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The US government influences the value of the dollar. They don't dictate it.

For someone hung up on using a narrow definition of command economy, you're awfully sloppy when it comes to anything else.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 08:50 AM   #1266
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
If you pay attention to the part of the definition of fascism that talks about the alliance between government and business, then yes, very much so.
China can't be Fascist. Yes, they have an 'alliance' between politics and business. But they don't have control over the media, as sprawling surveillance state, one-party rule, a cult of personality around their leader, an ethnic-nationalist agenda, no elections, they are not expanding into other countries and demographically changing to countries by letting the Han overtake the indigenous population and -most importantly- they are not putting ethnic and religious minorities in concentration camps...

...wait, lemme check my notes...
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Old 23rd May 2019, 06:17 PM   #1267
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The US government influences the value of the dollar. They don't dictate it.
Are we just really ineffective at "influencing" our currency's value, and that makes it completely different? It seems to me like we're able to make it go up or down fairly easily. How it's done is a lot more complex than the way it's done in China, and it's less precise, but overall it's not fundamentally that dissimilar.
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Old 23rd May 2019, 07:46 PM   #1268
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Are we just really ineffective at "influencing" our currency's value, and that makes it completely different? It seems to me like we're able to make it go up or down fairly easily. How it's done is a lot more complex than the way it's done in China, and it's less precise, but overall it's not fundamentally that dissimilar.

But as Ziggurat says it's indeed not "the government" who is doing the US monetary policy, unlike in China or Venezuela. It's the banking cartel.
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Old 24th May 2019, 01:21 PM   #1269
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
But as Ziggurat says it's indeed not "the government" who is doing the US monetary policy, unlike in China or Venezuela. It's the banking cartel.
No, the fed sets the monetary policy in the US. The investors then respond to the monetary policy, making the value of the currency go up or down.
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Old 24th May 2019, 01:52 PM   #1270
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
No, the fed sets the monetary policy in the US. The investors then respond to the monetary policy, making the value of the currency go up or down.

Maybe I should have written "capital" instead of "banking cartel".
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Old 29th May 2019, 06:51 AM   #1271
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Old 29th May 2019, 09:29 AM   #1272
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Are we just really ineffective at "influencing" our currency's value, and that makes it completely different? It seems to me like we're able to make it go up or down fairly easily. How it's done is a lot more complex than the way it's done in China, and it's less precise, but overall it's not fundamentally that dissimilar.
“influencing” the value of your currency requires trading off either inflation or economic growth. The most successful economic strategy has been to maximize growth while keeping inflation in a desired range (usually 2%) and let your currency do whatever the **** it wants.

China has played around with using bank reserve requirements to get around this but I don’t think it’s clear this has worked. The biggest factor keeping China’s currency value low is that they invest a lot of money in other countries and have yet to see much in the way of profits on those investments.
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Old 29th May 2019, 10:43 AM   #1273
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Are we just really ineffective at "influencing" our currency's value, and that makes it completely different? It seems to me like we're able to make it go up or down fairly easily. How it's done is a lot more complex than the way it's done in China, and it's less precise, but overall it's not fundamentally that dissimilar.
It's completely different mechanisms. The US has a strong dollar largely because it has a strong economy. This makes the government's monetary policy levers very effective in maintaining the exchange value of the currency. But note that they're using economic tools and market forces.

China's economy is much weaker overall, so even a good monetary policy based on market forces won't do much to strengthen its exchange rate. That's why China has to strengthen its currency by fiat instead.

The general consensus is that playing out the economy you have with the best policies you can muster is the best way to participate in the global economy. Setting the value of your currency by fiat is a form of unfair competition that is based on propping up your weak domestic economy rather than playing it out as it actually performs.

You're looking at two different approaches to currency valuation policy, and declaring that they're the same approach because they're trying to achieve similar things. Everyone else is rightly aware that the whole point is that they're very different approaches.
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Old 29th May 2019, 12:13 PM   #1274
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's completely different mechanisms. The US has a strong dollar largely because it has a strong economy. This makes the government's monetary policy levers very effective in maintaining the exchange value of the currency. But note that they're using economic tools and market forces.
The USD is strong because there is foreign investment flowing into the country, but there is an argument to be made that this is being driven by deficit spending rather than underlying economic strength.

When governments run budget deficits they need to borrow to finance their spending. This borrowing increases the demand for investment capital, which in turn increases the returns being offered and increases the incentive for foreign investment. When investors outside the US wish to invest in the US, they first need to buy US Dollars, so increased investment demand also drives up demand for USD which of course drives up the value of the USD.


Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
China's economy is much weaker overall, so even a good monetary policy based on market forces won't do much to strengthen its exchange rate. That's why China has to strengthen its currency by fiat instead.
Again not really. The primary force pushing the Yuan down is that there is a lot of Chinese investment in other countries. Some of this is strategic, but a lot of it happens because China runs a surplus which eventfully makes it's way into Chinese capital markets so there is more money chasing the available investments which drives down returns and makes investing outside China where returns are higher more attractive.
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Old 10th June 2019, 09:01 AM   #1275
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Q. What did Venezuelans use as a medium of exchange before barter?

A. Money.
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Old 5th July 2019, 02:28 PM   #1276
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Report from the UN Human Rights on Venezuela:

Quote:
GENEVA (4 July 2019) – A UN human rights report published today urges the Government of Venezuela to take immediate, concrete measures to halt and remedy the grave violations of economic, social, civil, political and cultural rights documented in the country.

The report by the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights warns that if the situation does not improve, the unprecedented outflow of Venezuelan migrants and refugees will continue, and the living conditions of those who remain will worsen.

...

The report details how State institutions have been steadily militarized over the past decade. During the reporting period, civil and military forces have allegedly been responsible for arbitrary detentions; ill-treatment and torture of people critical of the Government and their relatives; sexual and gender-based violence in detention and during visits; and excessive use of force during demonstrations.*

Pro-government armed civilian groups, known as colectivos, have contributed to the deteriorating situation by exercising social control and helping repress demonstrations. The UN Human Rights Office has documented 66 deaths during protests between January and May 2019, 52 attributable to Government security forces or colectivos.

The incidence of alleged extrajudicial killings by security forces, particularly the special forces (FAES), in the context of security operations has been shockingly high, the report states. In 2018, the Government registered 5,287 killings, purportedly for “resistance to authority,” during such operations. Between 1 January and 19 May this year, another 1,569 people were killed, according to Government figures. Other sources suggest the figures may be much higher.
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Old 9th July 2019, 01:55 PM   #1277
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Not holding my breath for the Maduro regime to take action.
If this were a game of Tropico, Maduro would have lost a long time ago.
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