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Old 30th November 2018, 07:30 AM   #441
angrysoba
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Does a second referendum have enough votes to pass in Parliament?
No, it would get voted down by half the Tories and...the Labour Party. I suppose a lot of the latter will defy the whip, but...enough of them?

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Does anything?

If not then a no deal shambles seems the option that we get to by default. Which is why the Leavers were so keen to trigger Art 50 straight away before anyone could actually think through the consequences.
It is bizarre how Theresa May has arranged a deal she surely must have known could not pass, and that now she knows it won't is still going to put it to the vote anyway as "the only deal possible".
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Old 30th November 2018, 07:35 AM   #442
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Does a second referendum have enough votes to pass in Parliament?
If the current deal is voted down, Parliament specifically rules out a no-deal Brexit and Labour can't force an election, then it might get enough votes because Labour sees it as the only way to make the Conservatives look bad and Conservative remainers decide it'll help their chances at taking over the party in the long term.

Dave
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Old 30th November 2018, 07:39 AM   #443
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What would be different if it was negotiated in good faith? How would you tell?
It woudn't be so lousy.
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Old 30th November 2018, 07:40 AM   #444
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
It's my hopelessly optimistic wish that she has made such calculations. But I think a more realistic possibility is that the vote will fail and either the Tories will try to pull the Norway option out of the bag. Still a net loss for remainers but maybe not the catastrophe of the no deal. But, my most pessimistic hunch is that no deal will be allowed to happen.
Parliament gets a vote on the final deal and it won't allow a no deal to happen.
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Old 30th November 2018, 07:42 AM   #445
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
That certainly seems a viable conspiracy theory at this juncture, but I'm not sure how consistent it is with her adamant refusal to countenance a second referendum. Do you think she's got to keep up that facade to forestall a Gotcha! moment when the hard line Brexiteers pick up on the theory and start throwing round the accusations?

Dave
I think she'll do a U turn when faced with the loss of her own deal and the spectre of a no deal.
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Old 30th November 2018, 07:42 AM   #446
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Originally Posted by Diablo View Post
Parliament gets a vote on the final deal and it won't allow a no deal to happen.
What assurance do you have of that?
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 30th November 2018, 07:47 AM   #447
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Originally Posted by Diablo View Post
It woudn't be so lousy.
How do you know that?
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Old 30th November 2018, 07:49 AM   #448
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
What assurance do you have of that?
We've been assured of it by the same people who assured us there's be a really good trade agreement, everything would be sorted in a few weeks, the EU would be begging us for favours, the economy would be fine and...

Oh.

Dave
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Old 30th November 2018, 07:53 AM   #449
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Originally Posted by Diablo View Post
Parliament gets a vote on the final deal and it won't allow a no deal to happen.
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
We've been assured of it by the same people who assured us there's be a really good trade agreement, everything would be sorted in a few weeks, the EU would be begging us for favours, the economy would be fine and...

Oh.

Dave
The same people that spearheaded leave and jumped ship the next day?

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Old 30th November 2018, 07:56 AM   #450
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
We've been assured of it by the same people who assured us there's be a really good trade agreement, everything would be sorted in a few weeks, the EU would be begging us for favours, the economy would be fine and...

Oh.

Dave
Oh ****!
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 30th November 2018, 08:16 AM   #451
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Originally Posted by Diablo View Post
It woudn't be so lousy.
And if she'd tried to buy a unicorn in good faith why then she'd have a nice unicorn to show?
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Old 30th November 2018, 08:18 AM   #452
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letter from my MP

Quote:
Thank you very much for writing to me with your views on Brexit.

I have been consulting extensively with constituents and businesses in High Peak over the last year to determine local views on the impact of the different proposals for our deal with the European Union.

On Friday I held a Business Summit in Buxton of businesses from across the constituency.* Those businesses were unanimous in their view that they would prefer us to be in the EU than out because of its benefits for trade, travel and certainty.*

They were opposed to Theresa May’s deal because the transition phase only lasts for 21 months, and the future relationship agreement is so hazy that it will need to be negotiated largely from scratch, meaning another 2 years or more of uncertainty, which is the last thing businesses want.

I also held public meetings in Buxton and Glossop on Friday and Saturday, which were attended by around 200 people.* Thank you very much if you were able to come along, I hope you found it useful.

I heard a wide range of views on immigration and free movement, the impact of Brexit on our economy, on local jobs, on investment, devolution and climate change.

No speakers approved of Theresa May’s deal and pointed out it gives us neither control over our borders and laws, nor the full benefits of the Customs Union and single market.* The vast majority rejected the government’s proposed two options of its deal or no deal and pointed out that we are better off in the EU.

It was very useful for me to hear from so many people before all the many decisions over the next couple of months.

On the basis of the evidence of what the proposed deal offers and local views, especially those of local businesses, I will be voting against the proposed deal.

All of the evidence, including the economic analysis published this week, shows that No Deal will lead to chaos at our borders, vital industries leaving the UK, and a huge hit to our economy.* That will hurt our public services and people in poverty even more, which are two key local priorities.* No Deal was also rejected as disastrous by local businesses, as national business organisations have also done, so I could not support the option of No Deal.

*The way forward from here will be not be easy as Parliament tries to find a workable route out of this.* That’s why I have asked constituents what they want to see at the end of the Brexit process.

Completing my Brexit survey, as more than 1,000 people have already done, will give me a more detailed view of what my constituents want from the Brexit process. *I have also included 10 key questions on other issues, which I am determined not to lose sight of, in spite of all the pressure over Brexit.
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Old 30th November 2018, 09:16 AM   #453
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'Vacargate' is growing.
Now demands for Newsnight producers to be sacked and the show taken off the air.
Also demands for BBC head of news to go and DG to step down.
Pro Remain groups want questions in Parliament over the BBC broadcasting pro Leave propaganda and reporting govt 'misinformation'
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Old 30th November 2018, 09:22 AM   #454
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
'Vacargate' is growing.
Now demands for Newsnight producers to be sacked and the show taken off the air.
Also demands for BBC head of news to go and DG to step down.
Pro Remain groups want questions in Parliament over the BBC broadcasting pro Leave propaganda and reporting govt 'misinformation'
I'm a big fan of the BBC.

The BBC has failed, utterly, in it's duty to the public over Brexit from the very beginning.

It fell back ion it's old, outdated 'balance' protocol and gave equal weight to Brexit loonies and failed to call them on lie after lie.

It has failed to adequately report on Banks and co. and their lies and crimes.

It has failed as a journalistic entity.

I certainly don't wish the end of the BBC, but I'd be bang alongside some sort of investigation into their reasons for their horrific journalistic choices.
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Old 30th November 2018, 09:40 AM   #455
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
'Vacargate' is growing.
Now demands for Newsnight producers to be sacked and the show taken off the air.
Also demands for BBC head of news to go and DG to step down.
Pro Remain groups want questions in Parliament over the BBC broadcasting pro Leave propaganda and reporting govt 'misinformation'
They still lack any evidence this woman was hired or was acting, right?
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Old 30th November 2018, 10:16 AM   #456
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
They still lack any evidence this woman was hired or was acting, right?
A quick Google suggests that there is no evidence that she presented any views but her own on the programme, or that the choice to wear a dog-collar and hence appear to be a member of the mainstream clergy (rather than aa member of an obscure and miniscule sect, which she apparently is) was anyone's but her own.

Hopefully, this will be our Pizzagate, and the worst injury done will be a series of sarcastic letters in the press.

Dave
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Old 30th November 2018, 10:20 AM   #457
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
BBC Breakfast was in Newlyn this morning. Cue interview with fishing twonk wibbling on about "fairer access," "our waters," and other such guff. Obviously didn't mention anything about British boats fishing in other-EU waters.
That's because all the waters belong to England. Britannia rules the waves and what not.
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Old 30th November 2018, 10:25 AM   #458
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I dunno. In the good ol days of politics, we had weird-looking politicians like Thatcher, Kinnock, Douglas Hurd etc... and Spitting Image had a field day making fun of them. Perhaps not coincidentally there also used to be real characters in Snooker such as Alex Higgins, Willie Thorne, Bill Wer..Wurbi..Wirbunyak... the fat Canadian beer guzzler.

Then it became ultra boring after Tony Blair, with all politicians trying to look as manicured as possible, matching some focus-grouped photo-fit bland template. They had the same suits, the same mannerisms, answered questions the same way ("Linda, thank you for your question. Our answer is that we are giving you the choice, Linda!") and were basically dull, dull, dull. Spitting Image probably couldn't have worked in those days.

But now, Spitting Image would have a new problem. How could it even manage to parody the parade of gargoyles and weirdos in politics today? Bojo, JRM, Gove, May, Corbyn. They are too ridiculous by themselves.
Spitting Image ran through to early 1996, so covered the start of Blair's premiership. In recent years Newzoids did manage to lampoon Johnson, Gove, May ("Icy stare!"), and Corbyn, as well as Trump.
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Old 30th November 2018, 10:29 AM   #459
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I see that, although it's fundamentally undemocratic to demand the British people keep on being asked to vote until they get the right answer, it's not at all undemocratic to demand the British Parliament keep on being asked to vote until they get the right answer.

Dave
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Old 30th November 2018, 10:33 AM   #460
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
A quick Google suggests that there is no evidence that she presented any views but her own on the programme, or that the choice to wear a dog-collar and hence appear to be a member of the mainstream clergy (rather than aa member of an obscure and miniscule sect, which she apparently is) was anyone's but her own.
The gathering press coverage seems to rely mostly on an appeal to incredulity that someone who is an "actor" could be appearing in anything other than a paid capacity.
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Old 30th November 2018, 11:16 AM   #461
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
No, it would get voted down by half the Tories and...the Labour Party. I suppose a lot of the latter will defy the whip, but...enough of them?



It is bizarre how Theresa May has arranged a deal she surely must have known could not pass, and that now she knows it won't is still going to put it to the vote anyway as "the only deal possible".
I dont think its bizarre at all. she got the only deal she was ever going to get and nothing she negotiated would ever please the majority anyway.

It now seems more and more likely that at least a few of the key figures in leave were planning this all along to make money off the carcass of the UK.
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Old 30th November 2018, 01:12 PM   #462
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
The gathering press coverage seems to rely mostly on an appeal to incredulity that someone who is an "actor" could be appearing in anything other than a paid capacity.

I've not been following it, but from what's in this thread my question would be "why was she being given a platform?" (as with the disproportionate platform given to UKIP and especially Farage over the years).
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Old 30th November 2018, 01:15 PM   #463
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Spitting Image ran through to early 1996, so covered the start of Blair's premiership. In recent years Newzoids did manage to lampoon Johnson, Gove, May ("Icy stare!"), and Corbyn, as well as Trump.
Tony Blair became PM in May 1997 (leader in 1994) but, Spitting Image had him sussed anyway.

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Old 30th November 2018, 01:25 PM   #464
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Portillo has carefully cultivated his 'eccentric' traveller image with his 'Railway Journeys' series.
People forget his politics.

I haven't. I still smile when I remember that declaration in 97.

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I dont think its bizarre at all. she got the only deal she was ever going to get and nothing she negotiated would ever please the majority anyway.

It now seems more and more likely that at least a few of the key figures in leave were planning this all along to make money off the carcass of the UK.
Well frankly it would almost be a relief to believe someone had a plan and this wasn't mindless stupidity...
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Old 30th November 2018, 01:29 PM   #465
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I've not been following it, but from what's in this thread my question would be "why was she being given a platform?" (as with the disproportionate platform given to UKIP and especially Farage over the years).
It was one of those segments where they put a half dozen "normal people" on the stage to say man of the people stuff
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Old 30th November 2018, 01:55 PM   #466
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It's a power struggle between the globalists and the Russians. They are all up to dirty tricks.
What the hell is a globalist?
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Old 30th November 2018, 01:56 PM   #467
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
What the hell is a globalist?
An anti-globe bigot!
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Old 30th November 2018, 01:57 PM   #468
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
What the hell is a globalist?
The opposite of flat earthers?
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Old 30th November 2018, 02:01 PM   #469
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
What the hell is a globalist?
He means "The Jews".

Last edited by The Moog; 30th November 2018 at 02:03 PM.
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Old 30th November 2018, 02:18 PM   #470
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Originally Posted by Diablo View Post
It woudn't be so lousy.
Why not?

Why would the EU offer anything more?

If Florida seceded from the union on it's own I don't really see any reason for the rest of the US to be too concerned with giving them a great trade deal. **** em, if they want out. And they have much nicer weather.

And if you get a deal, it won't be any better than being a member of the EU, with the one exception that you no longer have a voice in the EU. Leavers remind me of the guy who quits paying his country club dues but still wants to keep his regular tee time on Saturday morning. What, he'll still pay the cart fees, what's the big deal?

I imagine I'm rehashing old arguments, though. So, feel free to ignore.
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Old 30th November 2018, 03:06 PM   #471
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Originally Posted by Belgian thought View Post
Tony Blair became PM in May 1997 (leader in 1994) but, Spitting Image had him sussed anyway.
Damn my imperfect memory! Obviously it was the case, though, that Blair was prominent enough to be featured, even before becoming PM.
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Old 30th November 2018, 04:14 PM   #472
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Stephen Fry with a good video about Brexit myths and reality

especially the last couple of minutes

https://youtu.be/UYonSZ8s3_o
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Old 30th November 2018, 04:29 PM   #473
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Mariana Hyde is cutting on the prospect of a TV debate.

"The one Saturday Evening show where you don't get a vote."

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-brexit-debate
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Old 30th November 2018, 04:37 PM   #474
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Britain is planning to build its own space satellite-navigation system after pulling out of the EU's Galileo project, the prime minister has said.

The UK had wanted to stay part of Galileo after Brexit, but the EU said it would be banned from the extra-secure elements of the programme.

UK science minister Sam Gyimah has quit over the row, saying it exposed the flaws with Theresa May's Brexit deal.

"Galileo is a clarion call that it will be 'EU first'," he said.

The UK's interests "will be repeatedly and permanently hammered by the EU27 for many years to come", he added in a Facebook post setting out his reasons for resigning. He also said he would be voting against Mrs May's deal.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46407249
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Old 30th November 2018, 06:54 PM   #475
Arcade22
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Britain is planning to build its own space satellite-navigation system after pulling out of the EU's Galileo project, the prime minister has said.

The UK had wanted to stay part of Galileo after Brexit, but the EU said it would be banned from the extra-secure elements of the programme.

UK science minister Sam Gyimah has quit over the row, saying it exposed the flaws with Theresa May's Brexit deal.

"Galileo is a clarion call that it will be 'EU first'," he said.

The UK's interests "will be repeatedly and permanently hammered by the EU27 for many years to come", he added in a Facebook post setting out his reasons for resigning. He also said he would be voting against Mrs May's deal.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46407249
It's like someone breaking up and then complain that they are being unfairly punished for it because they can no longer use their former partners Netflix account.
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Old 30th November 2018, 11:46 PM   #476
Lukraak_Sisser
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Britain is planning to build its own space satellite-navigation system after pulling out of the EU's Galileo project, the prime minister has said.

The UK had wanted to stay part of Galileo after Brexit, but the EU said it would be banned from the extra-secure elements of the programme.

UK science minister Sam Gyimah has quit over the row, saying it exposed the flaws with Theresa May's Brexit deal.

"Galileo is a clarion call that it will be 'EU first'," he said.

The UK's interests "will be repeatedly and permanently hammered by the EU27 for many years to come", he added in a Facebook post setting out his reasons for resigning. He also said he would be voting against Mrs May's deal.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46407249
Soooo, he is mad that the because the UK has quit to put the 'UK first' and it turns out that that sentiment is then returned?
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Old 1st December 2018, 02:16 AM   #477
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Yet again leaver dreams of having all the UK cake and eating all the EU cake turn to no cake for anyone. Still at least we will have potatoes and British wine!
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Old 1st December 2018, 03:46 AM   #478
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Yet again leaver dreams of having all the UK cake and eating all the EU cake turn to no cake for anyone. Still at least we will have potatoes and British wine!
Sam Gyimah isn't a Leaver, he voted Remain at the referendum.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 1st December 2018 at 03:48 AM.
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Old 1st December 2018, 04:33 AM   #479
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It was one of those segments where they put a half dozen "normal people" on the stage to say man of the people stuff
I see, thank you.
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Old 1st December 2018, 04:39 AM   #480
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
What the hell is a globalist?
MNC's. Set up wherever taxes and labour costs are lowest. Yet have profits the size of the GDP of third world countries. Caters for the First World.
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