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Old 10th December 2018, 12:25 PM   #801
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Gollum's take on Brexit:

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I AGREE
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Old 10th December 2018, 01:12 PM   #802
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This has become a textbook example of why "Plebiscite Democracy" is not a good idea.
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Old 10th December 2018, 01:18 PM   #803
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Underneath it all the old questions about the future of Northern Ireland are still festering away. Membership of the EU allowed both sides to simply ignore them for the last 20 years, now that's no longer possible and things could get ugly.

This was another example of the Leave side simply airily assuming everyone else in the EU would bend over backwards to accommodate the UK. If there's a stop button on this whole idiotic Brexit process someone needs to have the courage to press it now.
So May might end up bringing "The Troubles" back?
Nice.
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Old 10th December 2018, 01:24 PM   #804
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Public schools and Oxbridge have a hell of a lot to answer for. Everything that is wrong with the UK in one little toxic bundle.
Time for 12 of the best for the leaders of those schools. Daily for the next year.
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Old 10th December 2018, 01:37 PM   #805
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Time for 12 of the best for the leaders of those schools. Daily for the next year.
Except that's part of the reason it's so toxic
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Old 10th December 2018, 01:54 PM   #806
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Today was beyond farce and more like watching Trump having a bad day.

I was watching on BBC World and switched to CNN for other news. Their commentators were also doing Brexit and somewhere between despair and laughter.

I hear David Cameron is thinking of a comeback
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Old 10th December 2018, 01:58 PM   #807
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Today was beyond farce and more like watching Trump having a bad day.

I was watching on BBC World and switched to CNN for other news. Their commentators were also doing Brexit and somewhere between despair and laughter.

I hear David Cameron is thinking of a comeback
Cameron's the one who caused the whole mess.

Besides, I think Theresa May does have a plan - to kick the can down the road till March 28th next year then bring her deal back to parliament and tell them its this deal or revoke Article 50.
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Old 10th December 2018, 02:19 PM   #808
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Cameron's the one who caused the whole mess.
Golly, I must have missed that

Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Besides, I think Theresa May does have a plan - to kick the can down the road till March 28th next year then bring her deal back to parliament and tell them its this deal or revoke Article 50.
21st Jan seems to be the very latest date for parliament to vote on 'the deal'.
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Old 10th December 2018, 02:21 PM   #809
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Golly, I must have missed that



21st Jan seems to be the very latest date for parliament to vote on 'the deal'.
She'll find a way to extend it. She has can kicking down to a fine art.
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Old 10th December 2018, 02:25 PM   #810
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Cameron's the one who caused the whole mess.

Besides, I think Theresa May does have a plan - to kick the can down the road till March 28th next year then bring her deal back to parliament and tell them its this deal or revoke Article 50.
Or the no deal that was always the most likely outcome.
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Old 10th December 2018, 02:27 PM   #811
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Or the no deal that was always the most likely outcome.
There won't be a no deal. There's no majority for it in the HoC and never will be.
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Old 10th December 2018, 02:40 PM   #812
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
There won't be a no deal. There's no majority for it in the HoC and never will be.
There doesn't need to be. That's the whole point. In the absence of a majority in favour of 'deal X' then 'no deal' is the default outcome.
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Old 10th December 2018, 02:42 PM   #813
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
There doesn't need to be. That's the whole point. In the absence of a majority in favour of 'deal X' then 'no deal' is the default outcome.
Which is exactly why, if she kicks the can long enough they will have to either vote for this deal or vote to revoke Article 50.
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Old 10th December 2018, 03:10 PM   #814
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Which is exactly why, if she kicks the can long enough they will have to either vote for this deal or vote to revoke Article 50.
I donít think thatís how parliamentary votes work. They require voting Yes or No on a bill, not A or B.
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Old 10th December 2018, 04:00 PM   #815
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Besides, I think Theresa May does have a plan - to kick the can down the road till March 28th next year then bring her deal back to parliament and tell them its this deal or revoke Article 50.
So, basically, she's a closet hard core Remainer?

Dave
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Old 10th December 2018, 04:57 PM   #816
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
This has become a textbook example of why "Plebiscite Democracy" is not a good idea.
At the very least it is an example of how not to do it, and we would hope that something has been learnt from this, but I doubt it will be. From what I understand, the Swiss are happy enough with their plebiscite democracy.

The problems come from the fact that the PM (Cameron) thought the result was not in doubt, so the government had no idea what to do if the people voted the wrong way.

As they did, the Brexiters of course want the vote to stand, while the Remainers now want a new referendum.

Moreover, there is a conflict between the referendum result and the opinion of the elected representatives, the majority of the latter being opposed to Brexit.
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Old 10th December 2018, 05:57 PM   #817
dudalb
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Today was beyond farce and more like watching Trump having a bad day.

I was watching on BBC World and switched to CNN for other news. Their commentators were also doing Brexit and somewhere between despair and laughter.

I hear David Cameron is thinking of a comeback
It's like a Monty Python skit....
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Old 10th December 2018, 08:25 PM   #818
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
This has become a textbook example of why "Plebiscite Democracy" is not a good idea.

It hardly seems fair to blame plebs comprising roughly 25% of the voting population expressing an opinion in a non-binding referendum. The politicians who have played games with the whole thing with no other goal than personal aggrandizement are a much more appropriate target for responsibility.
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Old 11th December 2018, 01:28 AM   #819
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Brexit explained in terms of the UK voting to build a submarine out of cheese.

https://mobile.twitter.com/hugorifki...0791229440?p=v
Quote:
Hugo Rifkind
@hugorifkind 12h
Replying to @hugorifkind
The thing is, the best way to understand Theresa Mayís predicament is to imagine that 52 percent of Britain had voted that the government should build a submarine out of cheese.

Hugo Rifkind
@hugorifkind 12h
Replying to @hugorifkind
Now, Theresa May was initially against building a submarine out of cheese, obviously. Because itís a completely insane thing to do.
View conversation ∑
Hugo Rifkind
@hugorifkind 12h
Replying to @hugorifkind
However, in order to become PM, she had to pretend that she thought building a submarine out of cheese was fine and could totally work.
View conversation ∑
Hugo Rifkind
@hugorifkind 12h
Replying to @hugorifkind
"Cheese means cheese," she told us all, madly.
View conversation ∑
Hugo Rifkind
@hugorifkind 12h
Replying to @hugorifkind
Then she actually built one.
View conversation ∑
Hugo Rifkind
@hugorifkind 12h
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Itís ****. Of course it is. For Godís sake, are you stupid? Itís a submarine built out of cheese.
View conversation ∑
Hugo Rifkind
@hugorifkind 12h
Replying to @hugorifkind
So now, having built a **** cheese submarine, she has to put up with both Labour and Tory Brexiters insisting that a less **** cheese submarine could have been built.
View conversation ∑
Hugo Rifkind
@hugorifkind 12h
Replying to @hugorifkind
Theyíre all lying, and they know it. So does everybody else. We've covered this already, I know, but itís cheese and itís a submarine. How good could it possibly be?
View conversation ∑
Hugo Rifkind
@hugorifkind 12h
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Only she canít call them out on this. Because she has spent the past two years also lying, by pretending she really could build a decent submarine out of cheese.
View conversation ∑
Hugo Rifkind
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So thatís where we are.
View conversation ∑
Hugo Rifkind
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Replying to @hugorifkind
On balance, I this analogy works fine, perhaps except for the submarine and cheese parts, which need a little work.
View conversation ∑
Hugo Rifkind
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Replying to @hugorifkind
Thread ends.
View conversation ∑
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Old 11th December 2018, 02:22 AM   #820
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I donít think thatís how parliamentary votes work. They require voting Yes or No on a bill, not A or B.
But given that the bill is now amendabale, and given the ECJ judgement, an Amendment to the Bill that states in the result of the proposed deal being rejected then article 50 should be extended or withdrawn pending a second referendum seems at least feasible.
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Old 11th December 2018, 02:23 AM   #821
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
At the very least it is an example of how not to do it, and we would hope that something has been learnt from this, but I doubt it will be. From what I understand, the Swiss are happy enough with their plebiscite democracy.
The Swiss have had plenty of practice, and have probably encountered enough of the pitfalls to know that using a referendum on topic X to protest something else entirely is probably not the best idea.

The people framing the plebiscites there probably also have a better grasp of how to structure these things, such they they don't have quite so vague an outcome as Brexit.

I expect they still have the occasional issue, after all it's still people, but I doubt they've done anything quite as spectactularly daft as this in a while.
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Old 11th December 2018, 02:58 AM   #822
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Theresa May and her PR team have visited an orphanage in Brussels.

“It was terrible seeing their faces, devoid of hope, not a leg to stand on and with no future...”

- Karl, age 8.
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Old 11th December 2018, 03:13 AM   #823
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Theresa May and her PR team have visited an orphanage in Brussels.

ďIt was terrible seeing their faces, devoid of hope, not a leg to stand on and with no future...Ē

- Karl, age 8.



Stealing that.
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Old 11th December 2018, 03:17 AM   #824
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Theresa May and her PR team have visited an orphanage in Brussels.

ďIt was terrible seeing their faces, devoid of hope, not a leg to stand on and with no future...Ē

- Karl, age 8.

Nominated, I genuinely laughed out loud.
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Old 11th December 2018, 04:09 AM   #825
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Which is exactly why, if she kicks the can long enough they will have to either vote for this deal or vote to revoke Article 50.
So what exactly are they supposed to negotiate differently from this deal, and make sure it is something that could actually be attained.

THe problem with the original brexit vote is that voting for brexit didn't mean anything concrete about what people actually wanted and certainly had no relation to what could actually be achieved.

I really don't think there are options other than Mays deal, no brexit or no deal.

Yes you might be able to change Mays deal a bit but how much really could be done?
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Old 11th December 2018, 04:11 AM   #826
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
At the very least it is an example of how not to do it, and we would hope that something has been learnt from this, but I doubt it will be. From what I understand, the Swiss are happy enough with their plebiscite democracy.

The problems come from the fact that the PM (Cameron) thought the result was not in doubt, so the government had no idea what to do if the people voted the wrong way.

As they did, the Brexiters of course want the vote to stand, while the Remainers now want a new referendum.

Moreover, there is a conflict between the referendum result and the opinion of the elected representatives, the majority of the latter being opposed to Brexit.
And of course the whole leave thing being a vague an contradictory set of promises and not a definitieve practical plan.
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Old 11th December 2018, 04:14 AM   #827
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I'm wondering how May is going to square her constant repetition over the last few weeks of 'this is the only deal, and the best deal for Britain' with whatever she can come with from her slightly panicky revisit to the EU. She seems to have somewhat painted herself into a corner.

If she comes up with a 'better' deal - then why did she say the other one was 'best'?
If she comes up with anything else, then it is - by definition - worse. So even less acceptable?
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Old 11th December 2018, 04:16 AM   #828
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Patel is of Indian heritage. So its bad enough she doesn't seem to know any Irish history, she's clearly never heard of the Bengal Famine either.
Gujarat via Uganda. To be fair, she's pretty clueless about a whole host of things.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 11th December 2018 at 04:19 AM.
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Old 11th December 2018, 04:18 AM   #829
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I suspect at many Irish bars in the US "Revenge for Skibberean" will be sung tonight...
Presumably by people who have never come within a thousand miles of Skibereen....
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Old 11th December 2018, 04:43 AM   #830
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My team Queens Park Rangers have called off the game against Middlesborough on Saturday in case they are defeated.
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Old 11th December 2018, 04:52 AM   #831
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Originally Posted by Worm View Post
I'm wondering how May is going to square her constant repetition over the last few weeks of 'this is the only deal, and the best deal for Britain' with whatever she can come with from her slightly panicky revisit to the EU. She seems to have somewhat painted herself into a corner.

If she comes up with a 'better' deal - then why did she say the other one was 'best'?
If she comes up with anything else, then it is - by definition - worse. So even less acceptable?
And the EU have been clear that the deal isn't changing so she will probably come back with 'assurances' from the EU that the backstop is not intended to be permanent.
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Old 11th December 2018, 05:04 AM   #832
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Theresa May and her PR team have visited an orphanage in Brussels.

ďIt was terrible seeing their faces, devoid of hope, not a leg to stand on and with no future...Ē

- Karl, age 8.
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post


Stealing that.
Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Nominated, I genuinely laughed out loud.
To be fair, it has been stolen countless times already from the football World Cup to the rugby World Cup and various other events.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 11th December 2018, 05:14 AM   #833
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
My team Queens Park Rangers have called off the game against Middlesborough on Saturday in case they are defeated.
But that's understandable.
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Old 11th December 2018, 06:18 AM   #834
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And of course the whole leave thing being a vague an contradictory set of promises and not a definitieve practical plan.
Yes, and that was all bound up in the idea that the result was a foregone conclusion. Of course, other parliamentarians deserve a fair share of blame for having voted for the bill in the first place.

Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
The Swiss have had plenty of practice, and have probably encountered enough of the pitfalls to know that using a referendum on topic X to protest something else entirely is probably not the best idea.

The people framing the plebiscites there probably also have a better grasp of how to structure these things, such they they don't have quite so vague an outcome as Brexit.

I expect they still have the occasional issue, after all it's still people, but I doubt they've done anything quite as spectactularly daft as this in a while.
Yes, and my point was it is not so much plebiscite democracy that is the problem as how it is implemented.
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Old 11th December 2018, 06:26 AM   #835
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-465...merkel-meeting

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Theresa May got stuck in her car after she arrived to meet German Chancellor Angela Merkel.
Figure out how to leave the EU? She can't even figure out how to leave a car.


eta: Obviously I wasn't the only one this occurred to. More here

Last edited by Wudang; 11th December 2018 at 06:32 AM.
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Old 11th December 2018, 08:05 AM   #836
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It's like a Monty Python skit....
Yes, one of the unfunny and dated ones.
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Old 11th December 2018, 08:50 AM   #837
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
To be fair, it has been stolen countless times already from the football World Cup to the rugby World Cup and various other events.
Sometimes it's not the joke, it's the timing.
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Old 11th December 2018, 09:24 AM   #838
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
It was already a legal requirement that companies list their ingredients.

I, like most of the small vaping guys *did * get my liquids tested.

The vaping industry circa 2016 *wanted* there to be testing and standards.
Is that really the root cause of wanting the UK to leave the EU? Because of a personal gripe about a single type of product? Sounds petty. Now, if you want to talk about a democratic deficit of the EU or some other concern with the union itself, fine. But vaping? Really?

As for smoking in Europe, Canada's reduced smoking quite a bit over the years mostly through changing social attitudes.

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I voted for Brexit as a protest vote.
Congratulations. You helped screw over millions of people on a whim.

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I do think the EU is a bad thing. I think the fundamentals of the EU are great, but is becoming an over complicated cumbersome bureaucracy and is getting more so over time.
See, now you're talking. Personally I think the EU should be a sort of confederation or just a strong trade agreement. Having an actual parliament, especially one back-assward like the EU's, is a bad idea. Trying to make a country out of Europe is a worse one.
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Old 11th December 2018, 09:43 AM   #839
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
See, now you're talking. Personally I think the EU should be a sort of confederation or just a strong trade agreement. Having an actual parliament, especially one back-assward like the EU's, is a bad idea. Trying to make a country out of Europe is a worse one.
I personally think that making a country out of the EU isn't a bad idea in the long run... but as things stand the EU isn't ready for that yet. The EU parliament is a reflection of that state of unreadiness. And untill the member states are ready to cede sovereignity to Brussels, it's the best we can do for now.

Further, as the past couple of years have shown, the world is a dangerous place. Russia and China are both flexing their muscles and seeing how far they can push the enveloppe. The USA has shown itself to be an unreliable partner. As a result I firmly believe that a more integrated EU who can speak and act with a single voice will be better for everyone.
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Old 11th December 2018, 09:44 AM   #840
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Stealing that.
Why not? He did.

When I first saw that joke, it was about the England football team visiting a South African orphanage during the 2010 World Cup.
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