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Old 6th December 2018, 06:10 PM   #1
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Documents Point to Illegal Campaign Coordination Between Trump and the NRA

“It is so blatant that it doesn’t even seem sloppy. Everyone involved probably just thinks there aren’t going to be any consequences.”

Quote:
The two purchases may have looked coincidental; Red Eagle and AMAG appear at first glance to be separate firms. But each is closely connected to a major conservative media-consulting firm called National Media Research, Planning and Placement. In fact, the three outfits are so intertwined that both the NRA’s and the Trump campaign’s ad buys were authorized by the same person: National Media’s chief financial officer, Jon Ferrell.

“This is very strong evidence, if not proof, of illegal coordination,” said Larry Noble, a former general counsel for the Federal Election Commission. “This is the heat of the general election, and the same person is acting as an agent for the NRA and the Trump campaign.”

Reporting by The Trace, which has teamed up with Mother Jones to investigate the NRA’s political activity, shows that the NRA and the Trump campaign employed the same operation—at times, the exact same people—to craft and execute their advertising strategies for the 2016 presidential election. The investigation, which involved a review of more than 1,000 pages of Federal Communications Commission and Federal Election Commission documents, found multiple instances in which National Media, through its affiliates Red Eagle and AMAG, executed ad buys for Trump and the NRA that seemed coordinated to enhance each other.

Individuals working for National Media or its affiliated companies either signed or were named in FCC documents, demonstrating that they had knowledge of both the NRA and the Trump campaign’s advertising plans.
Experts say the arrangement appears to violate campaign finance laws.

“I don’t think I’ve ever seen a situation where illegal coordination seems more obvious,” said Ann Ravel, a former chair of the Federal Election Commission, who reviewed the records. “It is so blatant that it doesn’t even seem sloppy. Everyone involved probably just thinks there aren’t going to be any consequences.”
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Old 6th December 2018, 08:10 PM   #2
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Well, there haven't been consequences so far, have there?
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Old 6th December 2018, 11:09 PM   #3
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Quelle surprise!!
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Old 7th December 2018, 12:03 AM   #4
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Given the dire financial straits the NRA is currently in, the next question is: where did it get money for its campaigning from?
Evidence points to Russia.
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Old 7th December 2018, 02:12 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Given the dire financial straits the NRA is currently in, the next question is: where did it get money for its campaigning from?
Evidence points to Russia.
Well, it's possible to be broke because you spend more than you take in. I doubt they have any difficulty raising money; they just spend more than they rake in.

I'm not discounting possible Russian involvement. Do we still have the little honey pot locked away or has she been released to flee the country? But it will take Russian money to make this into a story that "sticks". The fact that one uber conservative group openly colluded with the Trump campaign is not really surprising. What's surprising is merely that they did it so openly with no effort to cover for themselves.
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Old 7th December 2018, 06:15 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Well, there haven't been consequences so far, have there?
Actually, there have been some consequences.

Currently, both Robert Mueller and US Congress is looking into how the Russians used the NRA to funnel money into the 2016 Trump Campaign.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation...sian_influence
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Old 7th December 2018, 06:15 AM   #7
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The solution is to remove campaign limits.
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Old 7th December 2018, 06:32 AM   #8
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Or fix "Citizens United".
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Old 7th December 2018, 06:38 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Or fix "Citizens United".
By removing the limit on campaign spending.
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Old 7th December 2018, 06:45 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The solution is to remove campaign limits.
In what way would unlimited campaign contributions help?
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Old 7th December 2018, 06:50 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The solution is to remove campaign limits.
What will be "solved" by that?
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Old 7th December 2018, 06:52 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
In what way would unlimited campaign contributions help?
It eliminates the key reason to illegally coordinate.
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Old 7th December 2018, 06:56 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It eliminates the key reason to illegally coordinate.
Isn't that like saying "end the problem of mass shootings by making all gun violence legal"?

Campaign finance laws are in place to prevent one party from having an unfair advantage just because they can raise money from a small number of donors.

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Old 7th December 2018, 07:02 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Isn't that like saying "end the problem of mass shootings by making all gun violence legal"?

Campaign finance laws are in place to prevent one party from having an unfair advantage just because they can raise money from a small number of donors.

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The equivalent to your statement would be making coordination between groups legal to solve the problem of illegal coordination. I didn't propose stopping those laws.

I said the equivalent if making heroin legal to reduce heroin dealing related violence
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Old 7th December 2018, 07:59 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It eliminates the key reason to illegally coordinate.
Yes, but there is a really good reason such coordination is illegal.
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Old 7th December 2018, 08:03 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Yes, but there is a really good reason such coordination is illegal.
I didn't say make coordination illegal. It can stay illegal.
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Old 7th December 2018, 09:14 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The equivalent to your statement would be making coordination between groups legal to solve the problem of illegal coordination. I didn't propose stopping those laws.
But you're suggesting getting rid of contribution limits. Which would mean that a small number of individuals could influence an election by contributing large sums of money to a single candidate or party.

This is bad because:
- it gives the potential of an unfair advantage to one party over the other
- It increases the possibility that an elected official will be unduly influenced by the demands of a small number of donors

Quote:
I didn't say make coordination illegal. It can stay illegal.
So, under your idea, groups like the NRA, instead of illegally coordinating with the republicans when running their own campaigns, would just donate directly to the republican party.

You've made the problem worse, not better.
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Old 7th December 2018, 09:19 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
What will be "solved" by that?
America's lack of a rigid caste system?
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Old 7th December 2018, 09:39 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
America's lack of a rigid caste system?
The resulting financially based caste system will be far more rigid than that of Georgian Britain, or 18th century India....
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Old 7th December 2018, 10:14 AM   #20
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[quote=Segnosaur;12526831


So, under your idea, groups like the NRA, instead of illegally coordinating with the republicans when running their own campaigns, would just donate directly to the republican party.

You've made the problem worse, not better.[/QUOTE]

The problem was coordination. This reduces coordination.
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Old 7th December 2018, 10:43 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The problem was coordination. This reduces coordination.
No, the problem is that a small number of people might have an undue influence over an election and/or elected representatives because of their financial resources.

Laws regarding campaign finance limits and coordination between 3rd parties and candidates were meant to curtail that problem. Your 'solution' does not address the underlying problem; it just makes the problem worse.
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Old 7th December 2018, 10:46 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
No, the problem is that a small number of people might have an undue influence over an election and/or elected representatives because of their financial resources.

Laws regarding campaign finance limits and coordination between 3rd parties and candidates were meant to curtail that problem. Your 'solution' does not address the underlying problem; it just makes the problem worse.
Regardless, I cannot address unspecified problems. It was not specified
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Old 7th December 2018, 10:47 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It eliminates the key reason to illegally coordinate.
That's just dumb. Even with (theoretically) unlimited contributions, it's still advantageous for campaigns to coordinate. Instead your schtick should be that coordination ought to be allowed via freedom of association.
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Old 7th December 2018, 10:52 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
That's just dumb. Even with (theoretically) unlimited contributions, it's still advantageous for campaigns to coordinate. Instead your schtick should be that coordination ought to be allowed via freedom of association.
Even with a legal drug trade and access to courts, it is still advantageous to kill your other dealers. But the point of legalizing the drug trade is to make that a less popular option.
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Old 7th December 2018, 11:01 AM   #25
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That article is a masterpiece of weasel-word use. Let's start with the title: Documents point to

"This is very strong evidence, if not proof...."

...executed ad buys for Trump and the NRA that seemed coordinated to enhance each other.

Experts say the arrangement appears to violate campaign finance laws.

AMAG does not appear to have....
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Old 7th December 2018, 11:28 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
That's just dumb. Even with (theoretically) unlimited contributions, it's still advantageous for campaigns to coordinate. Instead your schtick should be that coordination ought to be allowed via freedom of association.
I'm not sure the math works to the point that it is advantageous to coordinate mostly if there are no contribution limits. A dollar spent by Trump on a coordinated campaign would have to gain more influence from NRA coordination then spent exclusively on a trump campaign
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Old 7th December 2018, 11:36 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
That article is a masterpiece of weasel-word use. Let's start with the title: Documents point to

"This is very strong evidence, if not proof...."

...executed ad buys for Trump and the NRA that seemed coordinated to enhance each other.

Experts say the arrangement appears to violate campaign finance laws.

AMAG does not appear to have....
You missed one. "Experts" should have also been italicized.
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Old 7th December 2018, 11:52 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Even with a legal drug trade and access to courts, it is still advantageous to kill your other dealers. But the point of legalizing the drug trade is to make that a less popular option.
What the hell? No, not necessarily. Wars cost money, and the outcome is not a foregone conclusion.

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm not sure the math works to the point that it is advantageous to coordinate mostly if there are no contribution limits. A dollar spent by Trump on a coordinated campaign would have to gain more influence from NRA coordination then spent exclusively on a trump campaign
Even if unlimited dollars could go directly to Trump, the NRA is going spend to money and participate because it has a brand that resonates with a non-trivial portion of the electorate. Dues paying members expect the organization to play a role.
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Old 7th December 2018, 11:54 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm not sure the math works to the point that it is advantageous to coordinate mostly if there are no contribution limits.
If coordination works when contribution limits are a thing, removing said limits does not remove the advantages of coordination - it merely gives the parties co-ordinating access to greater sums of money.
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Old 7th December 2018, 11:56 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
What the hell? No, not necessarily. Wars cost money, and the outcome is not a foregone conclusion.



Even if unlimited dollars could go directly to Trump, the NRA is going spend to money and participate because it has a brand that resonates with a non-trivial portion of the electorate. Dues paying members expect the organization to play a role.
And the NRA would benefit the most from not coordinating. The dollars they previously received as an end run around campaign laws would just go to the campaigns. The remaining money is more associated with people who want to emphasize the NRA over eleecting Republicans.
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Old 7th December 2018, 11:57 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It eliminates the key reason to illegally coordinate.
Yes but the difference between doing exactly the same thing but legally is?
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Old 7th December 2018, 12:01 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yes but the difference between doing exactly the same thing but legally is?
It isn't the same thing. No coordination is not the same as coordination.
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Old 7th December 2018, 12:04 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
If coordination works when contribution limits are a thing, removing said limits does not remove the advantages of coordination - it merely gives the parties co-ordinating access to greater sums of money.
Because the limit is removed, money going to other group B because they could not go to group A transfers from group B to group A. Group B provides less benefit from coordination to group A. Also, the supporters of group B has shifted, reducing interest in shared benefit rather than selfish focus.

ETA: Even though the pies grow, the group of people in each pie are more enthusiastic about the pie.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 7th December 2018 at 12:11 PM.
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Old 7th December 2018, 01:18 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Because the limit is removed, money going to other group B because they could not go to group A transfers from group B to group A. Group B provides less benefit from coordination to group A. Also, the supporters of group B has shifted, reducing interest in shared benefit rather than selfish focus.

ETA: Even though the pies grow, the group of people in each pie are more enthusiastic about the pie.
If and when you can coherently state just what it that you are trying say, then kindly let the rest of us know about it.

Thanks.
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Old 7th December 2018, 01:41 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
If and when you can coherently state just what it that you are trying say, then kindly let the rest of us know about it.

Thanks.
It's a math word problem.
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Old 7th December 2018, 01:45 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It's a math word problem.
Your statement is not a math word problem.

Instead, your statement has a problem with words.
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Old 7th December 2018, 01:46 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Your statement is not a math word problem.

Instead, your statement has a problem with words.
If you have some ability with words, please clearly outline what is creating confusion.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 7th December 2018 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 7th December 2018, 02:27 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Regardless, I cannot address unspecified problems. It was not specified
Or maybe you should research the background of historical justifications for a law before attempting to naively change it without fully understanding the underlying issues.
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Old 7th December 2018, 04:32 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
That article is a masterpiece of weasel-word use. Let's start with the title: Documents point to

"This is very strong evidence, if not proof...."

...executed ad buys for Trump and the NRA that seemed coordinated to enhance each other.

Experts say the arrangement appears to violate campaign finance laws.

AMAG does not appear to have....
Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
You missed one. "Experts" should have also been italicized.
Those are just 'CYA' language examples. Read the article. Unless all those people just happen to have the same names as the people in the same positions at the same time in those organizations, it is definitive proof.

Barring severe split personality disorder of AT LEAST four people, there was illegal coordination. One cannot NOT coordinate with themselves. Duh.
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Old 7th December 2018, 05:07 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Or maybe you should research the background of historical justifications for a law before attempting to naively change it without fully understanding the underlying issues.
Not interested
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