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Tags 2020 elections , democratic party , presidential candidates

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Old 28th January 2018, 08:54 AM   #121
varwoche
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
What's bizarre to me is the binary thinking that's been so glaringly on display ever since the Bernie phenomenon. Can we use Hillary as an example of a centrist? Here's my rough grading from left wing perspective. We could quibble around the margins, but I think it's basically fair.

Birth control rights: Hillary A, Trump/GOP F
DACA / immigration: Hillary A, Trump/GOP F
Medicare/Medicaid: Hillary A, Trump/GOP F
Global warming: Hillary B, Trump/GOP F
SCOTUS: Hillary A, Trump/GOP F
Tax policy: Hillary A, Trump/GOP F

(btw - there are a number of things I don't like about Hillary. I voted for Obama in 2008 primary, and was dismayed by her emergence in 2016)

This abject "just like the right" nonsense may have cost the last election, and might cost the next.
Bump, in case Delvo wants to try and explain "just like the right".
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Old 28th January 2018, 09:04 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Once they're austricized, they'll be ready for annexation by their ethnic comrades across the border.
I could learn all the words to O'Canada if they'd have me.
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Old 28th January 2018, 09:27 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I could learn all the words to O'Canada if they'd have me.
I looked semi-seriously at making a move before Trump was elected. They are very restrictive. If you're a retired American with sufficient assets to live on without taking a job from a Canadian citizen and just wants to live there and spend money, they aren't interested.
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Old 28th January 2018, 01:26 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I looked semi-seriously at making a move before Trump was elected. They are very restrictive. If you're a retired American with sufficient assets to live on without taking a job from a Canadian citizen and just wants to live there and spend money, they aren't interested.
I guess the Canadians don't believe in trickle down economics.
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Old 29th January 2018, 02:38 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's the impression that she's a bit of a hawk, and possibly with close ties with Wall Street, that's driving this impression.
But neither made any sense.

She proposed no platforms that would be construed as either a "hawk" or a buddy of Wall Street.

Her platform across the board was to the left of Obama's not to the right.
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Old 29th January 2018, 04:20 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
But neither made any sense.

She proposed no platforms that would be construed as either a "hawk" or a buddy of Wall Street.

Her platform across the board was to the left of Obama's not to the right.
It's not about her platform, but about her words, history and dealings. Remember how much of a deal Sanders made about the transcripts to her Wall Street speech?
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Old 29th January 2018, 07:22 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
All you have to do is show me these great huge Progressive numbers, and I'm your boy... I said you have to engage them, involve them...
If we agree that they should be "engaged" and "involved", then we don't disagree that they're there.

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
...sell them on the horrors that continued GOP leadership are.
That's the problem right there. "I'm not him" is not engaging. It's exactly how to get people not to bother voting for you because you've given them nothing to vote for.

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
But give back* to the progressive wing...

*This is where the Bernie wing lost it. Hillary ameliorated her stance on a number of things and it became proof that she's "No True Progressive"... a litmus test.
I don't follow what this means. "Give back to the progressive wing" sounds like it means "Democrats should actually do something progressive for a change", but the part after the star-jump sounds like it means progressives should give more support to politicians who aren't particularly progressive. I'd agree with the former, but how does the latter make any sense or even fit with how democracy is supposed to work? What other political group would you say should vote for politicians who aren't on their side and don't try to do the kinds of policies they favor? And what connection is there between these two subjects?

Also, that's not what "litmus test" means. I can going along with expanding the original meaning beyond basing approval or disapproval on one single issue regardless of all other issues, to basing approval or disapproval on just a few issues regardless of the rest, but a word like "progressivism" is a package of positions on practically all issues. That doesn't leave anything else for the alleged litmus-tester to be ignoring in favor of them! Describing a politician's positions or actions and whether they agree with one's own is just political commentary, not a litmus test.

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Keep your eye on the prize. In this case, it's a negative prize - stopping the Republicans.
I might agree to some extent, if there were any sign that the "moderate" Democrats who run the party and insist on the same repeatedly failed campaign strategy as you had any intention of ever actually doing that. But they just go along with everything instead.

And BTW, back to an older one...
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I don't know why we have liberals and progressives believing conservative memes.
When have you ever seen/heard a conservative saying Democrats should fight for liberal policies?

Last edited by Delvo; 29th January 2018 at 08:15 AM.
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Old 29th January 2018, 08:54 AM   #128
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You're really not getting it. The conservative meme is that Dems need to stop running more to the middle because they think they own the middle. They'd love to see the Democratic Party running hard left, much like they pretended to respect and be willing to work with Bernie Sanders. They're sitting like a cat in front of a mouse hole with cheese on its breath. They would love to see Bernie or a Bernie clone as the candidate in 2020.

When I speak of engaging it's to convince Progressives that if they have any hope, it's in the Democratic Party but more importantly that they need to do the Mao/Chiang thing and unite long enough to beat the common enemy. The Democratic Party has been dragged, kicking and screaming, to the progressive side on a number of issues. Those of us calling for LGBTQ rights (before they were referred to as such) were voices in the wilderness for three decades. The Democrats finally came around, en masse, only in the last twelve years.

I can argue on these boards with mainstream Dems until the cows come home, but we're not talking about political philosophies. We're talking about election politics. It's a dream to think that a hard left progressive is going to carry the party or the GE. Satisfy ourselves, if necessary, with the reality that the barbarians are at the gate, and they have to be stopped, even if it means supporting the people you argue with every day on UHC or gov't sponsored tuition (just to pick two issues).

Sanders did not have the support. Period. No progressive on a 100% progressive platform is going to have the support. Pushing Hillary off of some of her positions and to the sensible left was a huge victory. Bernie saw that, but more important he saw that the important thing was what we failed to do.... Stop The Republicans.

That is the whole battle, right now.
(Has anyone come up with the final figure of the number of Bernie supporters who stayed home. NPR reported that the Bernie voters who switched to Trump (roughly 1 in 10) actually won him the rust belt states that gave him the White House. If another 1 in 10 stayed home because, sniff, y'all were a bunch of meanies to Bernie, then they've made my case for me.)
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Old 29th January 2018, 09:05 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
You're really not getting it. The conservative meme is that Dems need to stop running more to the middle because they think they own the middle. They'd love to see the Democratic Party running hard left, much like they pretended to respect and be willing to work with Bernie Sanders. They're sitting like a cat in front of a mouse hole with cheese on its breath. They would love to see Bernie or a Bernie clone as the candidate in 2020.
They might not like the results, however. I don't know, but I can't say whether it'd be a winning solution for the Democrats or not.
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Old 30th January 2018, 09:43 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's not about her platform, but about her words, history and dealings. Remember how much of a deal Sanders made about the transcripts to her Wall Street speech?
Might I point out that this was the first time I had ever heard of a Democratic candidate being vilified for giving paid speeches.

And what of her history and dealings? Are they really hoping for a Dove that would be elected and stay a Dove? Because that ain't happening. If Bernie had been elected we'd still be involved all over the world.
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Old 31st January 2018, 07:00 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Might I point out that this was the first time I had ever heard of a Democratic candidate being vilified for giving paid speeches.

And what of her history and dealings? Are they really hoping for a Dove that would be elected and stay a Dove? Because that ain't happening. If Bernie had been elected we'd still be involved all over the world.
Look, I don't know. All I'm saying is that her 'ties' to Wallstreet were a point of contention, and I don't doubt that her reluctance to release the transcripts is due to her not wanting their contents known.
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Old 31st January 2018, 08:35 AM   #132
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There used to be a meme among Republicans that Ross Perot took a load of votes from George H W Bush which denied him a victory over Bill Clinton.

However, subsequent analyses of the data (from a few sources, but I heard it most recently on a 538 podcast) showed that Perot took votes somewhat evenly from both Bush Sr. and from Bill Clinton.

That alone would suggest that back then there were a lot of voters in the centre who were happy to move back and forth across parties.

Then to get re-elected it seems Bill Clinton had to move into the middle with his "triangulation" strategy without which he probably would not have won.

Now, since then it is often opined that the Republicans have moved right, and that the Democrats have moved right as well. But is that really the case? The Democrats seem to have gone left on a number of issues such as gay marriage and other social issues.

I think it is probably irrelevant. I think people in the swing states were put off by Hillary Clinton herself and didn't want to vote for her. The number of votes that made a difference was really low. It wasn't that she didn't get enough votes, it was where those votes were cast.

The Democrats need a candidate who can appeal to a particular demographic in the rust belt, I believe.
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Old 31st January 2018, 08:44 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Bump, in case Delvo wants to try and explain "just like the right".
Crickets. Oh well.

It's inexplicable of course Delvo. Your comments provide a stark example of the binary thinking that manifested in 2016 in the progressive wing of the party, facts be utterly damned.
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Old 31st January 2018, 01:07 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
That alone would suggest that back then there were a lot of voters in the centre who were happy to move back and forth across parties.
There are nine million who voted for Obama and then Trump. Left/right/center is not the way to explain or describe what's really happening. Populist or corporate-government-rich-elitist-machine is the more realistic spectrum to put it on. You couldn't find more of a classic machine insider than Clinton, whereas Trump talked like a populist. But a Democrat who actually stood for progressive/liberal principles, like Sanders, would also be a populist.
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Old 31st January 2018, 01:41 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I don't doubt that her reluctance to release the transcripts is due to her not wanting their contents known.
This is called a damned if you do, damned if you don't senario.

Had Clinton released the transcripted it would have done at least as much harm because her enemies would have gone through them with a fine tooth comb looking for anything that was even remotely positive towards Wall Street to hold up as absolute proof that she was in cahoots with them.

The irony is that in acting the way they did, they really did hand the US Treasury over to Wall Street, the very thing they claimed to fear from Clinton.
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Old 20th February 2018, 02:13 PM   #136
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More on Buttigieg.

Quote:
Through it all, Buttigieg established himself as a Democrat worth tracking, at a time when the party was desperate for fresh faces, particularly between the coasts. Howard Dean has called him “the face of the first global generation.” Frank Bruni, the New York Times columnist, wondered after a 2016 South Bend visit whether he had just met the country’s first gay president. And speaking to the New Yorker three weeks after Donald Trump was elected president, Barack Obama name-checked four gifted pols he trusted to lead Democrats into the suddenly terrifying future. Three were U.S. senators, all in their 50s. Then there was Buttigieg, a boyish municipal servant with a Maltese last name nobody can quite pronounce. (It’s Boot-edge-edge, though South Bend residents just call him Mayor Pete.)
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Old 8th March 2018, 07:32 AM   #137
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You won't often find me in this sub-forum (and I haven't read much of this thread), but I'm curious about a couple of names of potential Democrat presidential picks raised by The Gradiaun here in Blighty: Kirsten Gillibrand and Amy Klobuchar. Anyone know anything? They also raised Elizabeth Warren, who I would like to have seen running last time, but she'll be in her 70s in 2020.
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Old 8th March 2018, 11:58 AM   #138
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Bernie Sanders first choice. Gabbard a close second.

Martin O Malley I'll take, though he's very bland. I wish he'd be more aggressive.

No one who is currently being pushed by the DNC.
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Old 8th March 2018, 12:03 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Sanders did not have the support. Period. No progressive on a 100% progressive platform is going to have the support. Pushing Hillary off of some of her positions and to the sensible left was a huge victory. Bernie saw that, but more important he saw that the important thing was what we failed to do.... Stop The Republicans.
To say the progressive platform is not a winning one is illusory. The part that hurts the most for many corporate Dems is their business ties and donors. As far as the voters are concerned they still hate business as usual and we need Dems to stand for something other than that.

Absolutely a progressive candidate will win votes, party support notwithstanding.
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Old 8th March 2018, 12:27 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
To say the progressive platform is not a winning one is illusory. The part that hurts the most for many corporate Dems is their business ties and donors. As far as the voters are concerned they still hate business as usual and we need Dems to stand for something other than that.

Absolutely a progressive candidate will win votes, party support notwithstanding.
Ah, yes, the "Lost Tribe" school of politics..that there is a vast hidden vote out there of Progressive/ Right Wing voters who are just waiting for the right candidate to come along.......
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Old 8th March 2018, 06:44 PM   #141
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Not at all like those centrists who will vote for Democrats as long as those Democrats make themselves sufficiently indistinguishable from Republicans; those are totally real.
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Old 9th March 2018, 05:28 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Not at all like those centrists who will vote for Democrats as long as those Democrats make themselves sufficiently indistinguishable from Republicans; those are totally real.
Is this a random thought off the top of your head that you felt you needed to share?
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Old 9th March 2018, 05:46 AM   #143
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Is Dudalb on your ignore list? I thought it was pretty obvious that that was a direct response to his/her last post.

He/She claimed (using sarcasm) that the idea of running candidates who would actually fight for progressive policies would be hunting mythical progressive voters who aren't really there. I responded (using sarcasm) that it's the voters in the middle, whom the party has been trying to hunt by running candidates who will just continue the fine tradition of rolling over for whatever the Republicans want to do, are who are mythical (which would be why Democrats have been losing so much by hunting them so hard).

What part of that wasn't thoroughly clear?
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Old 9th March 2018, 05:49 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Is Dudalb on your ignore list? I thought it was pretty obvious that that was a direct response to his/her last post.

He/She claimed (using sarcasm) that the idea of running candidates who would actually fight for progressive policies would be hunting mythical progressive voters who aren't really there. I responded (using sarcasm) that it's the voters in the middle, whom the party has been trying to hunt by running candidates who will just continue the fine tradition of rolling over for whatever the Republicans want to do, are who are mythical (which would be why Democrats have been losing so much by hunting them so hard).

What part of that wasn't thoroughly clear?
Honestly, I didn't relate it that way. I see it now that you've explained, but it didn't actually seem to be a direct response, but a generic comment.
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Old 9th March 2018, 01:29 PM   #145
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Is there anyone on these forums who voted for Clinton in the general election that wouldn't have voted for Sanders had it been him vs Trump in the general instead?

I have a really hard time buying the argument that people who voted for Clinton would have suddenly stayed home or voted Trump/3rd party instead of for Sanders.

Meanwhile he would have picked up some of the votes from people who stayed home, voted Trump, or voted 3rd party because they couldn't bring themselves to vote for Clinton because they thought she was corrupt or republican lite or an out of touch elite, or whatever their reason was. (FYI I'm not arguing she was those things).
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Old 9th March 2018, 01:49 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Is there anyone on these forums who voted for Clinton in the general election that wouldn't have voted for Sanders had it been him vs Trump in the general instead?

I have a really hard time buying the argument that people who voted for Clinton would have suddenly stayed home or voted Trump/3rd party instead of for Sanders.

Meanwhile he would have picked up some of the votes from people who stayed home, voted Trump, or voted 3rd party because they couldn't bring themselves to vote for Clinton because they thought she was corrupt or republican lite or an out of touch elite, or whatever their reason was. (FYI I'm not arguing she was those things).
True story: I know a dog who would have voted for Bernie, but didn't vote for Hills.

More seriously: I think you have a better point than I would have given you credit for prior to the election.
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Old 9th March 2018, 02:09 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I looked semi-seriously at making a move before Trump was elected. They are very restrictive. If you're a retired American with sufficient assets to live on without taking a job from a Canadian citizen and just wants to live there and spend money, they aren't interested.
Canada is limiting Immigration? How racist!
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Old 9th March 2018, 10:37 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Canada is limiting Immigration? How racist!
Well, no, but nice try. You might call it agist, but in the context of Canadian society agism is probably kind of acceptable. Once you've achieved landed immigrant status, you get all the rights and benefits (other than voting, I believe) of a Canadian citizen. Trebuchet is a fine healthy gourd slinger right now. He'd be no burden, but what happens when he gets a brain cloud in four years and hasn't paid into the system for fifty years? The Canadian populace is now going to pay for his medical treatments for the remaining three decades of his life.

It's basic actuarial stuff. I'm going to produce nothing for Canada unless you count sitting on my porch and shouting "Get Off My Lawn - Descendre Ma Pelouse". The reality is that at 65+, you're not going to be going for job training grants, but you're quite likely to be a suck on the medical facilities.
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It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
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Old 9th March 2018, 10:59 PM   #149
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Except I'll still have Medicare.
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Old 9th March 2018, 11:17 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Except I'll still have Medicare.
I have Medicare. Do they pay into Canada? They don't pay into Thailand.


ETA: No. Not if you emigrate.
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It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.

Last edited by Foolmewunz; 9th March 2018 at 11:18 PM.
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Old 10th March 2018, 10:12 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I have Medicare. Do they pay into Canada? They don't pay into Thailand.


ETA: No. Not if you emigrate.
Oh, ok. Canada doesn't want me anyhow so it's moot. Of course, had I moved it's only a short ferry ride back.
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Old 10th March 2018, 10:29 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Republicans might be hoping Joe Biden gets nominated for 2020.

They would call attention to the footage of him fondling little girls too much for their comfort. It does look a little creepy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ-YjGmpO4Q
"A little creepy"?

Downright revolting is closer to the mark, and in the light of current feelings on unwanted advances, would have to disqualify him.

The expressions on his and the kids' faces during the episodes are fairly revealing, and there's at least one where he appears to be pushing his crotch area into one of the girls.
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Old 27th March 2018, 10:32 AM   #153
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Buttigieg ramping up for 2020

Quote:
TOPEKA, Kansas—Pete Buttigieg’s PAC is investing money here — but also in Georgia, Arizona, Michigan and Colorado. And Iowa, per an announcement coming Tuesday. Next month, he’ll campaign in Ohio
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Old 6th June 2018, 09:19 AM   #154
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If Mikie Sherrill wins for Congress she may be a good candidate for President, maybe 2024 however it didn't take Obama long after winning his Senate seat.

She's a former Navy pilot so she may get the patriot vote. Unless she gets swiftboated somehow.
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Old 6th June 2018, 10:50 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
I never heard of him before. I don't think he is a viable candidate for 2020 (young, gay and from Indiana).
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Old 6th June 2018, 11:20 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Is there anyone on these forums who voted for Clinton in the general election that wouldn't have voted for Sanders had it been him vs Trump in the general instead?
I don't think using this forum is a very good measure of how Sanders would have done in a general election. People here tend to be left-leaning and secular/atheist (so Sander's self-label as a "socialist", or his supposed atheism would not be a deal breaker for people here.)

Where Sanders would have lost votes (compared to Clinton):

- Minorities, especially minority Christians (Sanders didn't get much support from Minorities in the primaries, so I can see that trend continuing in a general election. And being an atheist might turn off even more of them)

- Pro-business people who might otherwise support republicans but voted for Clinton because they saw her as a moderate (and, more importantly, not racist like Trump). But those people may see Sanders as going too far towards the political left. (Remember, while some loved his "free college and health care for all" proposals, those would have required an increase in taxes. That's not going to go over well with middle-age/middle class voters)

- Blue collar people who would traditionally be Democratic voters and who might consider themselves "patriots" and got turned off when they see video of "Comrade Sanders at anti-American rallies in South America". (Granted, many of them already voted for Trump, but a Sanders candidacy might make the issue just a little worse)

Then you also have the ugly fact... elections cost money to run. While Sanders bragged about all the small donations he received in the primaries, general elections cost a lot more. I doubt he'd get enough small donations to cover it, and going after "big money" donors (if any were willing to support him) would just get him labeled a hypocrite.
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Old 6th June 2018, 12:24 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Is there anyone on these forums who voted for Clinton in the general election that wouldn't have voted for Sanders had it been him vs Trump in the general instead?

I have a really hard time buying the argument that people who voted for Clinton would have suddenly stayed home or voted Trump/3rd party instead of for Sanders.
Isn't that precisely what the Clintonistas have accused the Bernie Bros of doing?
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Old 6th June 2018, 01:08 PM   #158
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Howard Schultz has stepped down as CEO of Starbucks and is getting some buzz, which New York Magazine tries to kill:

Quote:
Now, look: Howard Schultz will never be president. The man is the embodiment of nearly everything that Democratic primary voters are anxious to vote against: A white male billionaire — with no political experience — who opposes universal health care and supports entitlement cuts.
He sounds like this cycle's Martin O'Malley; someone who could have crossover appeal to moderate Republicans and who is going to get nowhere because that is not what Democratic primary voters are looking for.
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Old 7th June 2018, 12:43 PM   #159
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On the other hand, I think voters ..Dems in particular..are going to very skeptical of CEO's who want to be President but have no experience in government or public office.
I think it has been shows that President is not an entry level position.
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Old 7th June 2018, 01:48 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Is there anyone on these forums who voted for Clinton in the general election that wouldn't have voted for Sanders had it been him vs Trump in the general instead?

I have a really hard time buying the argument that people who voted for Clinton would have suddenly stayed home or voted Trump/3rd party instead of for Sanders.

Meanwhile he would have picked up some of the votes from people who stayed home, voted Trump, or voted 3rd party because they couldn't bring themselves to vote for Clinton because they thought she was corrupt or republican lite or an out of touch elite, or whatever their reason was. (FYI I'm not arguing she was those things).
I find it difficult to imagine voting for Trump if Satan himself was running against him. In so many ways I hate Pence even more then Trump, but it would still be a no brainer to vote against Trump if they were facing each other on the ballot.
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