ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags donald trump , mental illness issues , psychiatry incidents , psychiatry issues , Trump controversies

Reply
Old 5th July 2018, 12:16 PM   #121
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 30,414
Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
1) You're answering someone else's question

2) Better a professional con man than a politician, huh? Good times.
1) Next time, send a PM.

2) Politicians are professional con men, Noah.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2018, 12:38 PM   #122
NoahFence
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 22,131
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
1) Next time, send a PM.

2) Politicians are professional con men, Noah.
1) No, I don't think I will. Next time YOU refrain from answering a question clearly posed to someone else.

2) No, they are not.
NoahFence is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2018, 12:55 PM   #123
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 10,090
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Does Mayo Clinic's NPD description fit Trump or not? I think it's obvious the description fits, I don't see how anyone could think it doesn't fit...
The Mayo Clinic's description *might* fit Trump, that's not what's in question. What's in question (most immediately anyway) is your ability, as a layperson, to appropriately and accurately apply that description in a meaningful and credible way. Or anyone else in this thread, including me, for that matter .
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2018, 01:08 PM   #124
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 70,410
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
The Mayo Clinic's description *might* fit Trump, that's not what's in question. What's in question (most immediately anyway) is your ability, as a layperson, to appropriately and accurately apply that description in a meaningful and credible way. Or anyone else in this thread, including me, for that matter .
You are ignoring all the links to professionals' opinions and acting as if only a bunch of lay persons on the internet are applying the diagnostic criteria.

As for "*might* fit":
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2018, 01:16 PM   #125
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 30,414
Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
1) No, I don't think I will. Next time YOU refrain from answering a question clearly posed to someone else.

2) No, they are not.
That's adorable.

Last edited by theprestige; 5th July 2018 at 01:18 PM.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2018, 05:57 PM   #126
xjx388
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,549
The overarching point is that nobody in this thread needed a psychological/psychiatric professional’s opinion; it has changed nothing. Nobody’s mind has been changed and nothing at all can legally come of it. It is an ethical violation and a deviation from professional standards. So what is the point in violating professional ethics and standards?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2018, 06:57 PM   #127
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 70,410
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
The overarching point is that nobody in this thread needed a psychological/psychiatric professional’s opinion; it has changed nothing. Nobody’s mind has been changed and nothing at all can legally come of it. It is an ethical violation and a deviation from professional standards. So what is the point in violating professional ethics and standards?
I highlighted the part you refuse to admit is not a universal opinion among professionals and that your only evidence it is universal is something you read on the internet.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2018, 07:00 AM   #128
Drewbot
Philosopher
 
Drewbot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,603
If they are able to accurately diagnose someone from afar, then they are certainly not allowed to disclose medical information publicly.
__________________
"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker
"I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325
Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic
Drewbot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2018, 08:55 AM   #129
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
 
The Norseman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,012
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
If they are able to accurately diagnose someone from afar, then they are certainly not allowed to disclose medical information publicly.
Non-sequitur.
The Norseman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2018, 09:17 AM   #130
Bob001
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,072
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
If they are able to accurately diagnose someone from afar, then they are certainly not allowed to disclose medical information publicly.
Says who? Trump is not their patient. They have no professional obligation to him. They have obtained no personal information from him. When shrinks assess Trump based on his observed words and behavior, they are doing the same thing they routinely do when they discuss what motivated Sirhan Sirhan, Charlie Manson or the latest mass shooter. They might be right or they might be wrong; nothing requires them to remain silent.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2018, 09:51 AM   #131
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 70,410
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
If they are able to accurately diagnose someone from afar, then they are certainly not allowed to disclose medical information publicly.
Sorry, that's not how patient confidentiality works. Confidentiality laws have a limited scope. One is prevented from disclosing things one knows about a patient that one learned in the patient-provider role.

One is not prevented from disclosing anything that was learned outside of the patient-provider role, nor is one prevented from giving one's professional opinion about information outside of the patient-provider role.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2018, 10:13 AM   #132
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 18,811
never mind

Last edited by carlitos; 6th July 2018 at 10:14 AM. Reason: deleted upon reflection
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2018, 10:33 AM   #133
Drewbot
Philosopher
 
Drewbot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,603
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Sorry, that's not how patient confidentiality works. Confidentiality laws have a limited scope. One is prevented from disclosing things one knows about a patient that one learned in the patient-provider role.

One is not prevented from disclosing anything that was learned outside of the patient-provider role, nor is one prevented from giving one's professional opinion about information outside of the patient-provider role.
In order to render a diagnosis, there would have to be a Doctor/Patient relationship.

Topic 3.4.7 of the APA Commentary on Ethics in Practice
Quote:
A psychiatrist may render a professional opinion about an individual
after an appropriate clinical examination and accompanying waiver of confidentiality and should not do so unless the examination and waiver have occurred.
__________________
"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker
"I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325
Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic
Drewbot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2018, 10:36 AM   #134
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 30,414
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
In order to render a diagnosis, there would have to be a Doctor/Patient relationship.

Topic 3.4.7 of the APA Commentary on Ethics in Practice
That's just something you read on the Internet. You'd have to be at least a Nurse Practitioner, to properly interpret what the APA really means (protip: the APA really means you can do whatever you want, no problem).
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2018, 01:39 PM   #135
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
 
The Norseman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,012
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's just something you read on the Internet. You'd have to be at least a Nurse Practitioner, to properly interpret what the APA really means (protip: the APA really means you can do whatever you want, no problem).
Yes. Yes, that's EXACTLY what we're all saying and have been saying ALL. ALONG. The APA says you can do whatever you want.

The only question remains, how come it took you this long to figure it out?
The Norseman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2018, 06:29 PM   #136
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 70,410
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
In order to render a diagnosis, there would have to be a Doctor/Patient relationship.

Topic 3.4.7 of the APA Commentary on Ethics in Practice
You're just repeating crap from the beginning of the thread.

I have a right to say anything I want about a person's medical condition as long as I didn't learn said information in the course of my job.

If my neighbor told me they had heart surgery and it comes up in a discussion with another neighbor, just because I'm a health care provider doesn't have any legal impact on that discussion at all.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2018, 06:31 PM   #137
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 70,410
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's just something you read on the Internet. You'd have to be at least a Nurse Practitioner, to properly interpret what the APA really means (protip: the APA really means you can do whatever you want, no problem).
Yeah right.


If someone gets it right about what an APA position statement means, they don't have to have any credentials. But if they get it wrong, well, why is that? It's because they don't have the requisite broader understanding required to understand the significance and application of an APA position statement.

For example, believing the position statement is dogma, that would be incorrect.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 6th July 2018 at 06:34 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2018, 09:23 AM   #138
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 18,811
“Saying anything you want” ≠ rendering a diagnosis.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2018, 09:33 AM   #139
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 70,410
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
“Saying anything you want” ≠ rendering a diagnosis.
Is there a quote somewhere where someone said it did?
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2018, 09:52 AM   #140
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 30,414
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Is there a quote somewhere where someone said it did?
All. Over. This. Thread.

The entire premise of the Yale group's pronouncement is that, contra the clear ethical guidelines of their professional standards organization, they can and should say whatever they want. Including remote diagnosis of a public figure without their consent, and advocating the removal of an elected official on the strength of their remote diagnosis.

Last edited by theprestige; 7th July 2018 at 09:54 AM.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th July 2018, 05:18 AM   #141
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,000
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
All. Over. This. Thread.

The entire premise of the Yale group's pronouncement is that, contra the clear ethical guidelines of their professional standards organization, they can and should say whatever they want. Including remote diagnosis of a public figure without their consent, and advocating the removal of an elected official on the strength of their remote diagnosis.
Says the guy who also says Trump is perfectly normal. No, their entire premise is directly stated: Their professional opinion is that Trump is mentally ill, and having a president who is mentally ill is a dangerous situation. The premise of the rebuttals seems to be that the APA is the final authority on ethics, and if they say their members aren't allowed to talk about Trump's obvious mental health issues, then we're all obliged to ignore that danger. It's almost comical that you accuse them of operating under a political bias.
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2018, 07:59 AM   #142
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 18,811
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
“Saying anything you want” ≠ rendering a diagnosis.
Is there a quote somewhere where someone said it did?
Were you just changing the subject here?

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
In order to render a diagnosis, there would have to be a Doctor/Patient relationship.

Topic 3.4.7 of the APA Commentary on Ethics in Practice
You're just repeating crap from the beginning of the thread.

I have a right to say anything I want about a person's medical condition as long as I didn't learn said information in the course of my job.
…....
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2018, 08:20 AM   #143
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 30,414
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I have a right to say anything I want about a person's medical condition as long as I didn't learn said information in the course of my job.
Isn't diagnosis part of the job, though?

I'd be very concerned about a medical professional who was diagnosing people without doing their job.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2018, 11:53 AM   #144
xjx388
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,549
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I have a right to say anything I want about a person's medical condition as long as I didn't learn said information in the course of my job.
I will agree with you here. However, that you have the right to say something does not have anything to do with the validity of what you say, which is the core of the issue here.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2018, 02:06 PM   #145
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 70,410
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Were you just changing the subject here?
I don't know where you see a contradiction or a subject change there.

I don't need a patient-provider relationship in order to "have a right to say anything I want about a person's medical condition as long as I didn't learn said information in the course of my job."

Anything I want doesn't equal a diagnosis, it includes my opinion on a diagnosis.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2018, 02:08 PM   #146
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 70,410
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I will agree with you here. However, that you have the right to say something does not have anything to do with the validity of what you say, which is the core of the issue here.
Yawn...

Why do you continue to insist on challenging my professional opinion when the thread is about a number of highly qualified psychiatrists' opinions?
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2018, 02:14 PM   #147
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 18,811
Originally Posted by carlitos
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
“Saying anything you want” ≠ rendering a diagnosis.
Is there a quote somewhere where someone said it did?
Were you just changing the subject here?

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
In order to render a diagnosis, there would have to be a Doctor/Patient relationship.

Topic 3.4.7 of the APA Commentary on Ethics in Practice
You're just repeating crap from the beginning of the thread.

I have a right to say anything I want about a person's medical condition as long as I didn't learn said information in the course of my job.
…....

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I don't know where you see a contradiction or a subject change there.

I don't need a patient-provider relationship in order to "have a right to say anything I want about a person's medical condition as long as I didn't learn said information in the course of my job."

Anything I want doesn't equal a diagnosis, it includes my opinion on a diagnosis.
In order to render a diagnosis, there would have to be a Doctor/Patient relationship. Your opinion on what these psychiatrists did has nothing to do with a diagnosis. There is no diagnosis.

With this in mind, could you please peek at what I've re-quoted above, and explain what your right to say what you want has to do with anything Drewbot posted. I am not following your argument here.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2018, 02:23 PM   #148
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 70,410
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
In order to render a diagnosis, there would have to be a Doctor/Patient relationship. Your opinion on what these psychiatrists did has nothing to do with a diagnosis. There is no diagnosis.

With this in mind, could you please peek at what I've re-quoted above, and explain what your right to say what you want has to do with anything Drewbot posted. I am not following your argument here.
You don't understand the definition of patient/provider relationship.

The two have to enter into a contract of some kind. I don't have a patient provider relationship with Jeffrey Dahmer if I were to study his mental illness and render my opinion of his dianosis.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2018, 02:30 PM   #149
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 18,811
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You don't understand the definition of patient/provider relationship.

The two have to enter into a contract of some kind. I don't have a patient provider relationship with Jeffrey Dahmer if I were to study his mental illness and render my opinion of his dianosis.
Who entered into a contract with Donald Trump and rendered the "diagnosis" on which are you are commenting?
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2018, 02:33 PM   #150
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 70,410
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Who entered into a contract with Donald Trump and rendered the "diagnosis" on which are you are commenting?


No one. There is no patient/provider relationship.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2018, 02:49 PM   #151
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 18,811
So you agree. No diagnosis.

Again, no one is challenging your right to say what you want, so I really do not understand your non-sequitur to Drewbot's post.

I apologize that we are talking past each other, but I tried to make it as easy as possible with the requoting and the highlighting.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2018, 03:03 PM   #152
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 70,410
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
So you agree. No diagnosis.

Again, no one is challenging your right to say what you want, so I really do not understand your non-sequitur to Drewbot's post.

I apologize that we are talking past each other, but I tried to make it as easy as possible with the requoting and the highlighting.


Yes there is a diagnosis: Trump has a pathologic NPD (some refer to it as a malignant NPD)

No there is no patient provider relationship. No one has been hired to diagnose or treat Trump.

Just because I am a medical provider doesn't establish patient confidentiality in regards to medical information. Confidentiality laws don't apply to all forms of medical information including professional opinions.

I'm not sure what is so difficult about this.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2018, 03:29 PM   #153
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 18,811
long boring summary about an internet misunderstanding

Originally Posted by The APA
In order to render a diagnosis, there would have to be a Doctor/Patient relationship.
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger
I have a right to say anything I want about a person's medical condition as long as I didn't learn said information in the course of my job.
Originally Posted by carlitos
“Saying anything you want” ≠ rendering a diagnosis.
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Is there a quote somewhere where someone said it did?
Originally Posted by carlitos
Were you just changing the subject here?
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger
I don't know where you see a contradiction or a subject change there.

I don't need a patient-provider relationship in order to "have a right to say anything I want about a person's medical condition as long as I didn't learn said information in the course of my job."

Anything I want doesn't equal a diagnosis, it includes my opinion on a diagnosis.
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Who entered into a contract with Donald Trump and rendered the "diagnosis" on which are you are commenting?
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


No one. There is no patient/provider relationship.
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
So you agree. No diagnosis.
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


Yes there is a diagnosis: Trump has a pathologic NPD (some refer to it as a malignant NPD)

No there is no patient provider relationship. No one has been hired to diagnose or treat Trump.
The APA says no patient provider relationship = no diagnosis.
You say there is a diagnosis, except when you say that no patient/doctor relationship means no diagnosis.

That's the crux of the thread. No one anywhere is questioning anyone's right to say anything. There just isn't a diagnosis in this case.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2018, 03:54 PM   #154
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 70,410
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
The APA says no patient provider relationship = no diagnosis.
OK, I see the problem.

Read the rest of the thread. That is not a unanimous opinion.

Actually what they say is one needs an in-person exam. Not only is that not a unanimous opinion, I cited one source that said in many cases the public record was better than an in-person exam because patients don't always show their natural selves to the provider

Quote:
No one anywhere is questioning anyone's right to say anything. There just isn't a diagnosis in this case.
Yes, lots of people in the thread are claiming a professional cannot weigh in as it wouldn't be ethical. That also has been challenged and is not a unanimous opinion.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 9th July 2018 at 03:58 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2018, 04:00 PM   #155
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 70,410
BTW, just as general info, technically one can have an in-person exam and still not have a patient/provider relationship. For example, the employee health provider has a relationship with the employer, not the employee.

The employee-patient then has a relationship with the employer. It's a legal technicality.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2018, 04:04 PM   #156
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 30,414
Legal technicalities make a poor cover for ethical obligations.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2018, 04:08 PM   #157
xjx388
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,549
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
OK, I see the problem.

Read the rest of the thread. That is not a unanimous opinion.

Actually what they say is one needs an in-person exam. Not only is that not a unanimous opinion, I cited one source that said in many cases the public record was better than an in-person exam because patients don't always show their natural selves to the provider



Yes, lots of people in the thread are claiming a professional cannot weigh in as it wouldn't be ethical. That also has been challenged and is not a unanimous opinion.


The existence of challenges and disagreement does not imply that such are valid. What you need to do is present the actual data that indicates the disagreement is on solid scientific ground.

“In many cases the public record was better than an in-person exam” is a testable claim. Has it been tested? If not, it is a claim without evidence. Medicine and psychology is not practiced based upon claims without evidence.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2018, 05:38 PM   #158
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 70,410
I don't need to prove anything to you. Multiple persons with volumes more education, experience and credentials publicly spoke up about Trump's blatantly obvious diagnosis and spelled out their reasoning for challenging the two rules in question.

You have nothing on them. You are siding with the organizations that have the position statements. Where's your evidence? Where's your expertise?

Did you contact those organizations and ask them to respond to the professional challenge?

Do you have evidence that said in-person exam is necessary? Studies? Research?

No, all you have is a professional organization that has no legal authority to dictate practice. In fact when it was suggested one might challenge the professionals' public statements by complaining to the licensing board, it was noted that would be a violation of the First Amendment.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2018, 06:04 PM   #159
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 18,811
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
OK, I see the problem.

Read the rest of the thread. That is not a unanimous opinion.

Actually what they say is one needs an in-person exam. Not only is that not a unanimous opinion, I cited one source that said in many cases the public record was better than an in-person exam because patients don't always show their natural selves to the provider



Yes, lots of people in the thread are claiming a professional cannot weigh in as it wouldn't be ethical. That also has been challenged and is not a unanimous opinion.
Thank you for your patience. Probably out of frustration, I used hyperbole there. Speaking for myself, I am not claiming that professionals cannot weigh in. Merely that they are not practicing their specialty when they do so.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2018, 07:14 PM   #160
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 70,410
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Thank you for your patience. Probably out of frustration, I used hyperbole there. Speaking for myself, I am not claiming that professionals cannot weigh in. Merely that they are not practicing their specialty when they do so.
I see that, but you'd be wrong.

The professionals that came out and publicly diagnosed Trump as having pathologic narcissism were most certainly putting their credentials behind their assertions.

Your definition of "practicing their speciality" is another place we are not in agreement on.

If I teach a class on infectious disease I am practicing my specialty. I don't need to be diagnosing a patient. If a psychiatrist writes a book on Jeffry Dahmer, that doc is practicing their specialty.

The point being, 'practicing' is not limited to patient/provider interactions.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:30 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.