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Tags donald trump , mental illness issues , psychiatry incidents , psychiatry issues , Trump controversies

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Old 9th July 2018, 09:11 PM   #161
xjx388
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I don't need to prove anything to you.
I guess that's true if you aren't interested in actually debating the issue but, instead, dictating from a position of authority.
Quote:
Multiple persons with volumes more education, experience and credentials publicly spoke up about Trump's blatantly obvious diagnosis and spelled out their reasoning for challenging the two rules in question.
That's an argument from authority. And that's fine; they are well-qualified experts in the field. They are not the only authorities in the field, however. Plenty of equally qualified experts have spoken out against them. There is also a higher authority in play: the APA, which writes the standards and the DSM. That process occurs through consulting the science and debate amongst committees to reach consensus.

It's much like the climate change debate: You have the scientific organizations who set the standards, do the research, debate positions etc who put out position statements in agreement that CC is happening and it's caused by humans. Then you have a few scientists who disagree with them. When you weigh the two, which side to choose seems obvious.
Quote:
You have nothing on them. You are siding with the organizations that have the position statements. Where's your evidence? Where's your expertise?
Take the layperson's view and let's look at an area where neither of us can claim expertise: climate change. The major organizations have reached a consensus and there are individual scientists who disagree. Who do we as laypeople trust? I'd bet that we both side with the organizations. So why shouldn't we trust the opinion of the APA over individual practitioners who disagree with them?
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Did you contact those organizations and ask them to respond to the professional challenge?
I didn't need to; they spontaneously responded with several commentaries. Why shouldn't I trust those commentaries?
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Do you have evidence that said in-person exam is necessary? Studies? Research?
I trust that the APA does. Should I not trust them? I'd like to see the research that shows that, in some cases, the in-person exam is inferior to public record information, if you have it. Some individual expert's opinion is not evidence.
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No, all you have is a professional organization that has no legal authority to dictate practice.
They do, indirectly. How do State Boards determine malpractice, for instance? By determining whether or not the physician followed the standard of care -legally defined as, the customary practices of the average physician. Where does the average physician learn these customary practices? In residency, the first place they actually practice medicine. Ultimately, the specialty organizations have the biggest influence in the residency programs.
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In fact when it was suggested one might challenge the professionals' public statements by complaining to the licensing board, it was noted that would be a violation of the First Amendment.
IANAL, but I think this is probably true. Rights, in any case, are a red herring. The issue here is whether or not professionals should make such speech, not whether or not they legally can.
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Old 9th July 2018, 10:04 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I guess that's true if you aren't interested in actually debating the issue but, instead, dictating from a position of authority.


I love the line, "I guess you don't want to debate the issues" on page 5.


Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
That's an argument from authority.
You should look that definition up, you don't have it right.

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
[snipped a bunch of poor analogies]
I didn't need to; they spontaneously responded with several commentaries. Why shouldn't I trust those commentaries?
I trust that the APA does. Should I not trust them?


You just got done complaining about accepting expert opinions.


Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
They do, indirectly. How do State Boards determine malpractice, for instance? By determining whether or not the physician followed the standard of care -legally defined as, the customary practices of the average physician. Where does the average physician learn these customary practices? In residency, the first place they actually practice medicine. Ultimately, the specialty organizations have the biggest influence in the residency programs.
IANAL, but I think this is probably true. Rights, in any case, are a red herring. The issue here is whether or not professionals should make such speech, not whether or not they legally can.
Wow, that some classic Dunning Kruger rambling there. The ANA influences residency programs?

Nope, sorry, that is not how works.

Residency programs are based in practice settings. Nobody looks up the ANA position statements to guide a residency program. That's bizarre.

Professional groups are the thing we join after we are practicing providers, though they typically have reduced rates for students who want to join.

You do know professional health care providers are independent practitioners, right? That came up earlier when some people in the thread had the mistaken idea there were a set of legal guidelines for every procedure an advanced practice nurse might do.

You get an education, you get a certain amount of experience and you pass your boards then apply for a license. After that, you're trusted to provide proper care.

Malpractice doesn't happen because you have a professional opinion about a public figure. Someone might try to sue you for slander or libel if you didn't have a basis, but Trump would lose if he tried that recourse.

The ethics has been discussed ad nauseum. You aren't presenting anything new.
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Old 9th July 2018, 10:10 PM   #163
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Has anyone at any point in either of these thread provided any evidence that he's not personality disordered?
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Old 9th July 2018, 10:14 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Has anyone at any point in either of these thread provided any evidence that he's not personality disordered?


Nope, other than to make the unsupportable claim one can't distinguish between non-pathologic and pathologic narcissism ergo Trump is just like all politicians.
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Old 9th July 2018, 10:41 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


Nope, other than to make the unsupportable claim one can't distinguish between non-pathologic and pathologic narcissism ergo Trump is just like all politicians.
Yeah, I'd call that closer to the "weak argument" camp than "evidence" camp. Heh.
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Old 10th July 2018, 12:17 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


I love the line, "I guess you don't want to debate the issues" on page 5.
You keep using the same kinds of arguments from authority so; no, I don't think you really want to debate the issues. What you want to do is say, "I think these professionals are right," without backing it up with anything solid.
Quote:
You should look that definition up, you don't have it right.
Sure I do: an argument from authority is when you argue that a person is right merely because they are an expert:

Quote:
Example #1:

Richard Dawkins, an evolutionary biologist and perhaps the foremost expert in the field, says that evolution is true. Therefore, it's true.

Explanation: Richard Dawkins certainly knows about evolution, and he can confidently tell us that it is true, but that doesn't make it true. What makes it true is the preponderance of evidence for the theory.
In this case, where is the preponderance of evidence that "remote diagnosis" is a valid and reliable diagnostic tool? You haven't presented that and neither have your experts. What they say is stuff like, "I know dangerousness when I see it."
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You just got done complaining about accepting expert opinions.
As I argued before and you conveniently snipped, it's a matter of deciding which authority to trust. You are essentially arguing that we should not trust the APA on this matter. However, you have not presented any evidence other than the opinions of a handful of professionals and your own.

It's exactly like arguing that we shouldn't trust the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change and all the other organizations simply because a handful of climate scientists disagree with them. That's not a "poor analogy," just a very inconvenient one for your position.
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Wow, that some classic Dunning Kruger rambling there. The ANA influences residency programs?
No, that's just bad reading comprehension on your part. Nurses don't have residency programs, for starters. You will notice that I specifically said "physicians." But even for nurses, the certifying organizations (ANCC and the AANP for FNPs) have influence over the training programs. The nursing organizations have influence over the certifying organizations; heck, the ANCC is a part of the ANA.
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Nope, sorry, that is not how works.
Of course it is. How could it be otherwise?
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Residency programs are based in practice settings. Nobody looks up the ANA position statements to guide a residency program. That's bizarre.
A psychiatry residency is based on APA standards of practice, programs don't just make stuff up. The residency has to teach what the board tests on. The APA works with the accrediting organization, certifying Board and the residency programs in order to develop what is in the curriculum. The APA has a hand in every step of the process to becoming a practicing psychiatrist.
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Professional groups are the thing we join after we are practicing providers, though they typically have reduced rates for students who want to join.
Well, they are also that. You don't have to join any professional organization after you graduate. But these organizations are also one of the primary shapers of the curriculums.
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You do know professional health care providers are independent practitioners, right? That came up earlier when some people in the thread had the mistaken idea there were a set of legal guidelines for every procedure an advanced practice nurse might do.
Well, that is true as far as it goes; there is not literally a legal guideline for every procedure. However, the standard of care is enshrined, one way or another, in every State law. An illustrative example from the Texas Medical Board rules:

Quote:
(1) Practice Inconsistent with Public Health and Welfare. Failure to practice in an acceptable professional manner consistent with public health and welfare within the meaning of the Act includes, but is not limited to:
(A) failure to treat a patient according to the generally accepted standard of care;
The specialty organizations promulgate the "generally accepted standard of care."

From the instructions jurors are given in malpractice cases in Washington:
Quote:
A (fill in type of health care provider) owes to the patient a duty to comply with the standard of care for one of the profession or class to which he or she belongs.

A (type of health care provider) has a duty to exercise the degree of skill, care, and learning expected of a reasonably prudent (health care provider) in the State of Washington acting in the same or similar circumstances at the time of the care or treatment in question.
Failure to exercise such skill, care, and learning constitutes a breach of the standard of care and is negligence.
You simply can't get around it: the practice of medicine is shaped by the standards of care that are developed by the professional/specialty organizations.
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Malpractice doesn't happen because you have a professional opinion on a public figure. Someone might try to sue you for slander or libel if you didn't have a basis, but Trump would lose if he tried that recourse.
That isn't a foregone conclusion. But no, I would not say that publicly stating a opinion about someone you've never met is legally malpractice. Not being malpractice does not mean that it's a good idea, though.
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Old 10th July 2018, 12:19 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Has anyone at any point in either of these thread provided any evidence that he's not personality disordered?
Whether or not he is disordered is irrelevant.
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Old 10th July 2018, 12:38 AM   #168
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A psychiatry residency is based on APA standards of practice, programs don't just make stuff up.
Oh for pity's sake. Programs? Uh, no, that's not how a residency or an internship are structured.

Yale, Harvard, and other medical programs are where providers learn the 'standards' you are referring to. The APA isn't in that role. After you graduate it's up to you to keep current in your practice.

Quote:
You simply can't get around it: the practice of medicine is shaped by the standards of care that are developed by the professional/specialty organizations.


No it isn't. Professional medical organizations do indeed have position papers on practice standards. But none of those organizations take the lead role in practice standards. Universities and actual practice set the standards. You are so far off on this I'm not wasting more time trying to explain it to you.

You don't understand what "standard of care" means. It's the community standard (i.e. other providers). It's not some organization's standard. Even if it were, that wouldn't be the bottom line and it doesn't have jack to do with objecting to the Goldwater Rule or concluding a diagnosis without an in-person exam is valid.

As for arguments from authority which you are still misunderstanding the logic of, you assert the APA is the bottom line and I assert a number of highly respected professionals have challenged the Goldwater Rule and the in-person exam. Pretty much those are equivalent arguments.

Your posts are seriously getting out there.
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Old 10th July 2018, 01:42 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Whether or not he is disordered is irrelevant.
Maybe to you and a couple others. It's the topic of this thread to the rest of us.

Strange disconnect, but c'est la vie.
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Old 10th July 2018, 06:12 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Has anyone at any point in either of these thread provided any evidence that he's not personality disordered?
That's not how the burden of proof works, but feel free.

I think that he probably is, but if we start down the road of evaluating mental and emotional health for public office, we would lose a lot of qualified leaders. Our system sucks at selecting the best and brightest as it is; why make it worse?
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Old 10th July 2018, 08:51 AM   #171
xjx388
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Oh for pity's sake. Programs? Uh, no, that's not how a residency or an internship are structured.

Yale, Harvard, and other medical programs are where providers learn the 'standards' you are referring to. The APA isn't in that role. After you graduate it's up to you to keep current in your practice.
Medical school has very little exposure to practice standards. A freshly minted MD is not prepared to practice for this reason; you can't get a medical license without at least a year of postgraduate education -some states are 2 or even 3 years.

Quote:


No it isn't. Professional medical organizations do indeed have position papers on practice standards. But none of those organizations take the lead role in practice standards. Universities and actual practice set the standards. You are so far off on this I'm not wasting more time trying to explain it to you.
This is laughably wrong. But this is veering off topic and I, also, have no desire to waste more time.
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You don't understand what "standard of care" means. It's the community standard (i.e. other providers).
That is ridiculously imprecise. Circular, even. Again, no desire to waste time on minutia.

Quote:
As for arguments from authority which you are still misunderstanding the logic of, you assert the APA is the bottom line and I assert a number of highly respected professionals have challenged the Goldwater Rule and the in-person exam. Pretty much those are equivalent arguments.
No they aren't. One side has decades of research and development to arrive at their guidelines and the other has nothing but a few assertions.
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Old 10th July 2018, 09:04 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Maybe to you and a couple others. It's the topic of this thread to the rest of us.

Strange disconnect, but c'est la vie.
If all you want to do is talk about Trump's mental health, you certainly don't need experts. You guys can have at it all you like and you won't hear boo from me. This thread started with a Yale conference where doctors and psychologists 1)Broke ethical rules and 2)Deviated from standard practice. This thread has been about them since Post 1. It has been interesting for me to witness such a vigorous defense of those actions. For my part, I don't care what laypeople think about Trump's mental state. What I care about is that people in the medical field act with some integrity.
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Old 10th July 2018, 10:48 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Multiple persons with volumes more education, experience and credentials publicly spoke up about Trump's blatantly obvious diagnosis and spelled out their reasoning for challenging the two rules in question.
Why even bother, though, if laypeople aren't qualified to understand or judge their reasoning?

The Yale group is urging the Cabinet to remove the President, on the strength of their reasoning. But according to Skeptic Ginger, the Cabinet (not being medical professionals) don't have what it takes to evaluate their recommendation or make an informed decision about it.

If SG is right, why does the Yale group even bother to explain, instead of just citing their inscrutable authority as medical professionals? Why does the APA even bother to put their policies on a website for public consumption, if the public can't comprehend them anyway?

SG's argument is basically for de facto rule by an elitist technocracy, whose pronouncements other citizens are not qualified to question, but only to obey.
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Old 10th July 2018, 01:39 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
That's not how the burden of proof works, but feel free.
...
We have posted supporting citations, so kelly's question was valid.

And I've asked similar questions, besides some rule one read on the internet, what is the basis of the argument Trump doesn't have NPD and/or what is the basis professionals shouldn't say anything publicly.

The professionals have defended their actions.
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Old 10th July 2018, 02:02 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Medical school has very little exposure to practice standards.
WTF?

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
A freshly minted MD is not prepared to practice for this reason;
For this reason? How about because they aren't done with their education until a year of on hands clinical.

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
you can't get a medical license without at least a year of postgraduate education -some states are 2 or even 3 years.
You have to have a license to practice in order to get an internship. The license might be called a license, registration or a certificate and at this point depending on the state and the doc has to practice under supervision. And it's only one year. After the internship a physician takes a test and meets certain reqs to get a license to practice medicine. I wouldn't know if various states require more than a year but anyone cold look up state practice requirements.

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
This is laughably wrong.

Here, educate yourself about what a standard of care means and how it is determined.


Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
No they aren't. One side has decades of research and development to arrive at their guidelines and the other has nothing but a few assertions.
What other side?

We're back to you not having a clue how a professional organization functions.
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Old 10th July 2018, 02:05 PM   #176
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Ugh. Deleted again, I'm sorry.

Last edited by carlitos; 10th July 2018 at 02:05 PM. Reason: I'm a moron.
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Old 10th July 2018, 02:08 PM   #177
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I just watched the Elton John speech. Either he's mad or he has a surreal sense of humour. I don't (really don't) think it's the latter.
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Old 10th July 2018, 02:53 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
I just watched the Elton John speech. Either he's mad or he has a surreal sense of humour. I don't (really don't) think it's the latter.
Oh my god. I saw that quote the other day but I thought it was a joke. Even having about as low an opinion of Trump as it's possible to have I thought that word salad was a parody. Thanks to your comment I just went and looked it up, so now I know better. Wow.
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Old 10th July 2018, 03:13 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
WTF?
Yes, Skeptic Ginger, I can see that you are boggled and have no clue about physician training. Med students do rotations through all the specialties and then, in 4th year, in the electives they choose to do. They get some exposure to practice standards but this exposure is superficial. Residency, once they choose the specialty they want to practice, is where the real exposure to standards comes as they actually learn to practice medicine.

Quote:
For this reason? How about because they aren't done with their education until a year of on hands clinical.
Another statement which shows you don't know about medical education. There are very few 1 year internships and those are competitive because they serve as the 1st year internships for some competitive specialties. Virtually every medical school graduate chooses a specialty. There really is no such thing as GP in the US anymore for a variety of reasons but mainly: 1)You can't get hired without a specialty because 2)Insurance companies don't pay non-specialists.

Quote:
You have to have a license to practice in order to get an internship. The license might be called a license, registration or a certificate and at this point depending on the state and the doc has to practice under supervision. And it's only one year. After the internship a physician takes a test and meets certain reqs to get a license to practice medicine. I wouldn't know if various states require more than a year but anyone cold look up state practice requirements.
Broadly correct and doesn't refute what I said.
Quote:

Here, educate yourself about what a standard of care means and how it is determined.
Nothing in there contradicts anything I said.
Quote:
What other side?
The Yale group, obviously.

Quote:
We're back to you not having a clue how a professional organization functions.
LOL, OK, whatever you say . . .
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Old 10th July 2018, 03:19 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
I just watched the Elton John speech. Either he's mad or he has a surreal sense of humour. I don't (really don't) think it's the latter.
And look how you didn't need a group of remote-viewing psychiatrists to help you reach that informed conclusion. Do you feel competent to judge whether Trump should be president? Or should you probably defer to a small faction of medical professionals, for questions like that?
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Old 10th July 2018, 04:41 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Yes, Skeptic Ginger, I can see that you are boggled and have no clue about physician training. Med students do rotations through all the specialties and then, in 4th year, in the electives they choose to do. They get some exposure to practice standards but this exposure is superficial. Residency, once they choose the specialty they want to practice, is where the real exposure to standards comes as they actually learn to practice medicine.
Quote:
Medical school has very little exposure to practice standards.
Superficial exposure to practice standards in med school?

Stop right there. What you are calling practice standards are really clinical guidelines. The standard of care is a legal term one would refer to in a courtroom.

For the benefit of anyone reading this thread, let's just take the APA, American Psychiatric Association. (There are several other APAs.)

According to you this organization is somehow the standard setter for psychiatric standards that universities and psychiatrists rely on. That's absurd.

The APA's practice guidelines are typical of what one finds with these organizations, though the AAFP (American Association of Family Practice) is an example of an association that has more extensive practice guidelines.

The link above is to the Clinical Practice Guidelines page of the APA. They have developed about 16 practice guidelines. 16!!!! Really, does that sound comprehensive psychiatric practice standards to you?

Here are some they are working on:
Quote:
Guidelines Under Development
Treatment of Eating Disorders
Treatment of Bipolar Disorder
Treatment of Schizophrenia
Treatment of Borderline Personality Disorder
Assessment and Treatment of Delirium
Treatment of Generalized Anxiety Disorder/Panic Disorder/Agoraphobia
Treatment of Major Depressive Disorder
Wow, that psychiatry field must be brand new they have hardly any guidelines developed.

I wonder what they teach in those years of university classes, must be hard waiting for the APA to develop the rest of those standards for psychiatrists.

Feel free to find the missing APA practice standards that interns must learn after med school.

I'm not going into your off-topic crap about how long a medical internship is. I suspect you just want to feign some knowledge to make up what your posts lack.


And if you think no one teaches ethics to physicians until they get to their internships, that would be frightening. Ever heard of human subjects ethics? Confidentiality ethics? How could a university not include ethics and clinical standards of care in a medical education? That's beyond bizarre.
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Old 11th July 2018, 08:28 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Superficial exposure to practice standards in med school?
Yup.

Quote:
Stop right there. What you are calling practice standards are really clinical guidelines. The standard of care is a legal term one would refer to in a courtroom.
You are very confused, obviously. Not my place to clear that up for you.

Quote:
For the benefit of anyone reading this thread, let's just take the APA, American Psychiatric Association. (There are several other APAs.)

According to you this organization is somehow the standard setter for psychiatric standards that universities and psychiatrists rely on. That's absurd.

The APA's practice guidelines are typical of what one finds with these organizations, though the AAFP (American Association of Family Practice) is an example of an association that has more extensive practice guidelines.

The link above is to the Clinical Practice Guidelines page of the APA. They have developed about 16 practice guidelines. 16!!!! Really, does that sound comprehensive psychiatric practice standards to you?

Here are some they are working on:Wow, that psychiatry field must be brand new they have hardly any guidelines developed.

I wonder what they teach in those years of university classes, must be hard waiting for the APA to develop the rest of those standards for psychiatrists.

Feel free to find the missing APA practice standards that interns must learn after med school.
Yup . . . very confused. Oh well.

You have somehow managed to miss the ultimate book of guidelines that covers every mental health condition. You know . . . the DSM-V, the bible of the profession?

You are also missing all the supplementary material to the DSM-V.

Not to mention, you are missing all the other publications the APA publishes on every facet of psychiatry along with the fundamental fact that the APA in conjunction with the ABPN sets the curriculum for residency programs.

You wanna talk about Dunning-Krueger and reading something on the internet and thinking that covers everything? You just illustrated it perfectly.

Quote:
I'm not going into your off-topic crap about how long a medical internship is. I suspect you just want to feign some knowledge to make up what your posts lack.
Pot, kettle and all that.

I think we have amply demonstrated that neither one of us is an expert on psychiatric practice. You may not believe it but the APA IS the authority on psychiatric practice. They have a hand in every facet of psychiatric practice. When we have your opinion vs. the opinion of the APA, uh . . . they win hands down. When we have the opinions of the Yale group of professionals vs. the APA . . . maybe its a bit closer and it bears some scrutiny. Under that scrutiny, it's obvious that they are not applying any accepted standard of practice in their "analysis" of Trump nor do they have any science to support it. They are relying only on their experience and authority. We would not accept that in any other field of science, why should we accept it here?

Mostly, I suspect, because it confirms people's biases.
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:20 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I think that he probably is, but if we start down the road of evaluating mental and emotional health for public office, we would lose a lot of qualified leaders. Our system sucks at selecting the best and brightest as it is; why make it worse?
Are you truly serious here? Someone who is borderline a danger to themselves or others isn't a disqualification in your view for government office? Why have any standards at all, such as an age qualification then if being emotionally healthy and well-balanced is too high a bar for some to reach?
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:29 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Are you truly serious here? Someone who is borderline a danger to themselves or others isn't a disqualification in your view for government office? Why have any standards at all, such as an age qualification then if being emotionally healthy and well-balanced is too high a bar for some to reach?


Begging the question.


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Old 12th July 2018, 09:29 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
If someone gets it right about what an APA position statement means, they don't have to have any credentials. But if they get it wrong, well, why is that? It's because they don't have the requisite broader understanding required to understand the significance and application of an APA position statement.
Lol... so... If they agree with you no credentials are required, but if they disagree with you then they need to have credentials? Stellar logic.
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Old 12th July 2018, 09:34 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I have a right to say anything I want about a person's medical condition as long as I didn't learn said information in the course of my job.
Are you under the impression that you, as a medical professional, can go crow from the rooftops that your neighbor has syphilis and aids, leveraging the implied credibility of your profession so that people believe you much, much more than they would believe the local plumber (for instance)... as long as you didn't learn it during the course of your job? Does it matter if it's true or not? Does it matter if you are basing this on observation only without any testing?

I think there's something fundamentally wrong with a professional (of any sort) using their implied expertise to lend artificial credence to their opinion when that opinion is based on flawed or nonexistent methodology.
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Old 12th July 2018, 09:36 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Why do you continue to insist on challenging my professional opinion when the thread is about a number of highly qualified psychiatrists' opinions?
... Because you keep appealing to your own authority as a professional as support for your own arguments, that's why.
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Old 12th July 2018, 09:50 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Are you truly serious here? Someone who is borderline a danger to themselves or others isn't a disqualification in your view for government office? Why have any standards at all, such as an age qualification then if being emotionally healthy and well-balanced is too high a bar for some to reach?
How do you reach the conclusion that he's a danger to himself or others?
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Old 12th July 2018, 10:53 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
How do you reach the conclusion that he's a danger to himself or others?

Because he has demonstrated a deep contempt for facts, logic, law and tradition, and because he holds and exercises unique power in our society, the misuse of which endangers us all.
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Old 12th July 2018, 11:28 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Because he has demonstrated a deep contempt for facts, logic, law and tradition, and because he holds and exercises unique power in our society, the misuse of which endangers us all.
So political danger then. This is a political argument.
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Old 12th July 2018, 11:31 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Because he has demonstrated a deep contempt for facts, logic, law and tradition, and because he holds and exercises unique power in our society, the misuse of which endangers us all.
And you didn't even need a group of psychiatrists giving you a remote diagnosis, to figure all that out and reach your informed conclusions.

Will you explain what the Yale group actually offers us?
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Old 12th July 2018, 11:33 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
So political danger then. This is a political argument.
"Several months ago, a foreign policy expert on the international level went to advise Donald Trump. And three times [Trump] asked about the use of nuclear weapons. Three times he asked at one point if we had them why can't we use them," Scarborough said on his "Morning Joe" program.

Politics, right!
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Old 12th July 2018, 11:47 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
"Several months ago, a foreign policy expert on the international level went to advise Donald Trump. And three times [Trump] asked about the use of nuclear weapons. Three times he asked at one point if we had them why can't we use them," Scarborough said on his "Morning Joe" program.

Politics, right!
I think all presidents should spend some time thinking about that question, and that all presidents should absolutely press their staff to answer it, and even to answer it repeatedly.

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Old 12th July 2018, 12:26 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think all presidents should spend some time thinking about that question, and that all presidents should absolutely press their staff to answer it, and even to answer it repeatedly.

The correct question is "When -- if ever-- would we be morally and legally justified in launching nuclear weapons?" Not "If we've got'em, why can't we use'em?" Try to appreciate the difference, and what it says about the speaker.

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Old 12th July 2018, 12:38 PM   #195
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It says that the speaker wants to see if the person they're talking to can volunteer their own moral and legal reasoning on the topic, without being prompted.

Why? What do you think it says about the speaker?
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Old 12th July 2018, 01:25 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
"Several months ago, a foreign policy expert on the international level went to advise Donald Trump. And three times [Trump] asked about the use of nuclear weapons. Three times he asked at one point if we had them why can't we use them," Scarborough said on his "Morning Joe" program.

Politics, right!
Can you be sure that the exchange happened exactly as Scarborough reported or that it even happened at all? I ask because I keep hearing in this thread that an in-person exam is unreliable because the subject can be deceptive and fool the psychiatrist. Yet here we have a reporter sharing an unsourced anecdote that is unverifiable and this is supposed to be counted as evidence that Trump is dangerous.

So: Right, Politics!
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Old 12th July 2018, 05:36 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
We have posted supporting citations, so kelly's question was valid.

At some point this just became a variant of the basic "If a tree falls in the woods, and there's no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?" debate.

If a man is mentally unsound, but he never seeks out an official diagnosis, is he still mentally unsound?

Believers in objective reality answer "Of course."
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Old 13th July 2018, 07:02 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
At some point this just became a variant of the basic "If a tree falls in the woods, and there's no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?" debate.



If a man is mentally unsound, but he never seeks out an official diagnosis, is he still mentally unsound?



Believers in objective reality answer "Of course."


I actually agree with you. I think that Trump probably is mentally unsound on some level.

But this has nothing to do with whether or not it’s appropriate for professionals to definitively claim whether or not this particular tree fell in the woods and to have actually measured its sound. They’ve never been to that particular spot in the woods.


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Old 13th July 2018, 08:09 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I actually agree with you. I think that Trump probably is mentally unsound on some level.

But this has nothing to do with whether or not it’s appropriate for professionals to definitively claim whether or not this particular tree fell in the woods and to have actually measured its sound. They’ve never been to that particular spot in the woods.


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That's a particularly bad analogy, given how loud Trump is.
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Old 13th July 2018, 11:54 AM   #200
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Trump is so loud that Liberace once wore him for a concert appearance.

He's so loud that air raid sirens tell him to keep it down.

He's so loud that he cures a deaf person every time he speaks.

He's so loud that even Chuck Norris can't roundhouse kick him.

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