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Tags donald trump , immigration issues , Trump controversies

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Old 25th November 2018, 07:17 PM   #361
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
So now we have the United States using chemical weapons against starving, shoeless children. All the while right wingers laugh and laugh at their pain all over social media.



Anyone still want to defend the notion we aren't on the precipice of a new holocaust?
You got a cite for that?
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Old 25th November 2018, 08:17 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
So now we have the United States using chemical weapons against starving, shoeless children. All the while right wingers laugh and laugh at their pain all over social media.



Anyone still want to defend the notion we aren't on the precipice of a new holocaust?
Travis. Dude. Just stop.

It was tear gas, not mustard gas. Nobody was starving, and I'm not sure why shoes are relevant here.

And given that nobody was killed (or, as far as I can tell, even seriously hurt), it's a pretty piss-poor start to a holocaust, if that's the goal. But of course, it isn't. There won't be a holocaust. You're cheapening the real one with this sort of bull ****.

ETA: and how the hell insulting is it to these migrants to be arguing that they're walking to their own deaths? Do you really think that they're so stupid as to do that? If a holocaust is really what Trump has in store for them, then why would they be trying so hard to get in? Maybe, just maybe, they know full well that nothing of the sort is going to happen.
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Last edited by Ziggurat; 25th November 2018 at 08:27 PM.
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Old 25th November 2018, 08:26 PM   #363
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The kind of psychopathy that allows one to shoot canisters at innocent children is exactly the same as allows them to shove other kids into gas chambers.


Those Border Patrol agents deserve to be put in prison. They actually deserve worse but at least they should be put in prison and never let out.
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Old 25th November 2018, 08:41 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
The kind of psychopathy that allows one to shoot canisters at innocent children is exactly the same as allows them to shove other kids into gas chambers.


Those Border Patrol agents deserve to be put in prison. They actually deserve worse but at least they should be put in prison and never let out.
Take a break from the internet, it's clearly not healthy for you. Seriously, it's making you miserable. Trump won't be any more of a Nazi with you offline than he is with you online.
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Old 25th November 2018, 11:28 PM   #365
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Thank you for posting, Travis. I'd heard nothing new about the migrant caravans since the midterms (which was what I expected, Trump would drop it for the next set of shiny keys).
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Old 25th November 2018, 11:50 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Thank you for posting, Travis. I'd heard nothing new about the migrant caravans since the midterms (which was what I expected, Trump would drop it for the next set of shiny keys).
Do you get your news from Trump's Twitter feed, or from media outlets?
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Old 26th November 2018, 12:00 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Do you get your news from Trump's Twitter feed, or from media outlets?
Here, mostly. I barely look at Facebook and don't watch TV.
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Old 26th November 2018, 01:03 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Here, mostly. I barely look at Facebook and don't watch TV.
Then how is it Trump going for shiny keys and not this message board chasing squirrels? If this board is where you get your news, then itís the choice of topics of members here, not Trump (who isnít a member), that has failed to put focus on the caravan.
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Old 26th November 2018, 03:51 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Then how is it Trump going for shiny keys and not this message board chasing squirrels? If this board is where you get your news, then itís the choice of topics of members here, not Trump (who isnít a member), that has failed to put focus on the caravan.
Travis may have gone quickly to a worst-case scenario, but he's not wrong about the incident itself - it did happen, and I am left with plenty of questions. I'm not a big border hawk; I think there's a better way to address these problems, and I suspect some of the migrants were manipulated into surging forward.

Quote:
Fani Caballero, 32, a migrant from Honduras who arrived with the caravan, sat by the train tracks, within sight of United States agents on the other side of the steel columns of the border fence. Her daughter, Cristina, 7, cried as Customs and Border Protection helicopters circled overhead.

ďPeople had thought that they were going to open the gates, but that was a lie,Ē Ms. Caballero said. ďWe thought it would be easier.Ē
Now why did she think that? I don't know, but Trump has been pretty consistent with his message. There is some gamesmanship going on, maybe a bit of a shakedown by Tijuana officials who say they don't have the resources to run a giant shelter out of a sports stadium. I would not be surprised if someone wanted exactly this confrontation - to the point of recruiting young men to throw rocks at border agents. Someone wanted the optics of women fleeing teargas with barefoot children. It could be used to "prove" that the U.S. are heartless bastards who use chemical weapons against toddlers; or conversely to "prove" the narrative that the U.S. is under invasion from the brown hordes down south.

This situation sucks all around. There is no great solution. Personally, I don't have a big problem with getting people in the asylum pipeline and letting them stay in the U.S. But that plan does have potential drawbacks.

Trump has done his best to fan hysteria over immigration, which had been *falling* for years but may be seeing an uptick. He wants to let in the "good" immigrants but that is not what asylum is. That concept might be too subtle for him.

I hope the U.S. and the new Mexican government can work out something that is not too disruptive and that this problem can be rationally addressed, if not completely solved, in a humane, orderly and sustainable fashion.
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Old 26th November 2018, 04:20 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
He wants to let in the "good" immigrants but that is not what asylum is.
It should be.
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Old 26th November 2018, 05:40 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Anyone still want to defend the notion we aren't on the precipice of a new holocaust?
Given your track record here, even you should be suspicious of your own claims.
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Old 26th November 2018, 05:54 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Travis may have gone quickly to a worst-case scenario, but he's not wrong about the incident itself - it did happen, and I am left with plenty of questions.
A worst case scenario has to be possible. Genocide isnít. And he is wrong about the incident itself. Tear gas isnít accurately described as a chemical weapon, and nobody was starving. There are indeed plenty of questions, but paranoia and hyperbole doesnít get anyone closer to an answer.
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Old 26th November 2018, 05:59 AM   #373
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Tear gas isn't considered a chemical weapon when used for domestic law enforcement and riot control. Shooting tear gas into another country, however, is a different story.
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Old 26th November 2018, 07:44 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Tear gas isn't considered a chemical weapon when used for domestic law enforcement and riot control. Shooting tear gas into another country, however, is a different story.
What makes you say that tear gas was fired into another country?

From what I've been able to tell, the crowd was trying to make it across the Tijuana River in an area where there's a concrete embankment. On the north side of the embankment, there's a wall, but the wall ends at a certain point. My suspicion is that this is was the point of conflict, where border patrol personnel would need to stop people without being able to rely on barriers. You can find that point on Google Maps:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/32...4d-117.0419658
Switch to 3D and you can see the wall. Note that at this point, both banks of the Tijuana River are on the US side of the border.

tl;dr: the tear gas was used for riot control.
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Old 26th November 2018, 08:01 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Anyone still want to defend the notion we aren't on the precipice of a new holocaust?
Take your pick. Anybody outside of a sanitarium, and most within, will fulfil your needs.
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Old 26th November 2018, 09:04 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Travis may have gone quickly to a worst-case scenario, but he's not wrong about the incident itself - it did happen, and I am left with plenty of questions. I'm not a big border hawk; I think there's a better way to address these problems, and I suspect some of the migrants were manipulated into surging forward.
If I was a conspiracist, everything about this caravan would have seemed fishy from the word go. The timing just before the midterms. The involvement of Pueblo Sin Fronteras. Some of the things being said by caravan participants in interviews seemed to fit a narrative far too neatly. But I'm not really a conspiracist. Sometimes things just work out this way.
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Old 26th November 2018, 09:52 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What makes you say that tear gas was fired into another country?

From what I've been able to tell, the crowd was trying to make it across the Tijuana River in an area where there's a concrete embankment. On the north side of the embankment, there's a wall, but the wall ends at a certain point. My suspicion is that this is was the point of conflict, where border patrol personnel would need to stop people without being able to rely on barriers. You can find that point on Google Maps:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/32...4d-117.0419658
Switch to 3D and you can see the wall. Note that at this point, both banks of the Tijuana River are on the US side of the border.

tl;dr: the tear gas was used for riot control.
Oh, and this isn't the first time Border Patrol used "chemical weapons" against a crowd trying to rush the border at this location.
https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...v25-story.html
"The group first approached a lone agent stationed about 1/8 of a mile north of the border. They ignored his commands to stop, so he fired pepper balls to try to stop them and protect himself, Caston said."
So we've got a pattern of Trump using chemical weapons against immigrants that goes all the way back to... 2013. When Obama was president. Is there nothing Trump won't stoop to, even time travel to discredit his predecessor?

Oh, and the picture at that link is a good illustration of what the wall at the top of the embankment looks like.
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Old 26th November 2018, 10:12 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
From what I've been able to tell, the crowd was trying to make it across the Tijuana River in an area where there's a concrete embankment. On the north side of the embankment, there's a wall, but the wall ends at a certain point. My suspicion is that this is was the point of conflict, where border patrol personnel would need to stop people without being able to rely on barriers.
Have they considered a Jaeger program?
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Old 26th November 2018, 10:29 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
The kind of psychopathy that allows one to shoot canisters at innocent children is exactly the same as allows them to shove other kids into gas chambers.


Those Border Patrol agents deserve to be put in prison. They actually deserve worse but at least they should be put in prison and never let out.
Bullhonkies.

You are not doing your side any favors.
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Old 26th November 2018, 10:31 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Here, mostly. I barely look at Facebook and don't watch TV.
NPR, dammit
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Old 26th November 2018, 02:01 PM   #381
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Are there any other pictures of that family Travis was talking about?
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Old 26th November 2018, 03:02 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
It should be.
There's a problem with that, and I think you can figure it out pretty easily.
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Old 26th November 2018, 03:11 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What makes you say that tear gas was fired into another country?
One story said there were multiple tear gas canisters found on the Mexican side. Possibly planted there, IMO.
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Old 26th November 2018, 03:14 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
There's a problem with that, and I think you can figure it out pretty easily.
I can. Ostensibly the problem contingent to stating that immigrants should respect the laws of the country that grants them sanctuary and if they don't they should be expelled is that leftists call you a racist. But that's not a problem for me.
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Old 26th November 2018, 03:30 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
One story said there were multiple tear gas canisters found on the Mexican side. Possibly planted there, IMO.
Every story I've seen so far has been remarkably bad at describing the actual physical location of what was going on. Maps and diagrams would really help, but I had to figure out locations on my own with the help of Google Maps and comparing photos to satellite pics. I'm less inclined to believe that canisters were planted than that reporters don't actually understand the terrain they're reporting from. The border between Mexico and the US is a straight line in that area, but you can't see it, and the landscape (like the river and the wall) doesn't follow that straight border. So it's easy to see how someone on the ground wouldn't know where the actual line was.
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Old 26th November 2018, 03:53 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I can. Ostensibly the problem contingent to stating that immigrants should respect the laws of the country that grants them sanctuary and if they don't they should be expelled is that leftists call you a racist. But that's not a problem for me.
I was thinking of something else: the morality of separating out the desirable refugee and the undesirable ones. That sent me Googling and I came across this:

The U.S. Government Turned Away Thousands of Jewish Refugees, Fearing That They Were Nazi Spies
In a long tradition of “persecuting the refugee,” the State Department and FDR claimed that Jewish immigrants could threaten national security

It's from the Smithsonian, which I would consider to be a reliable and middle-of-the-road publication. Many of these refugees went on to die in the Holocaust.
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Old 26th November 2018, 04:19 PM   #387
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Quote:
A transgender woman who died in Immigration and Customs Enforcement custody after being held in a privately operated detention center was likely physically abused there, according an autopsy report released Monday, and died after several days of severe, untreated dehydration.
Linky.
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Old 26th November 2018, 04:54 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Every story I've seen so far has been remarkably bad at describing the actual physical location of what was going on. Maps and diagrams would really help, but I had to figure out locations on my own with the help of Google Maps and comparing photos to satellite pics. I'm less inclined to believe that canisters were planted than that reporters don't actually understand the terrain they're reporting from. The border between Mexico and the US is a straight line in that area, but you can't see it, and the landscape (like the river and the wall) doesn't follow that straight border. So it's easy to see how someone on the ground wouldn't know where the actual line was.
I'm not an advocate of The Wall but if the map shows a straight, linear border then where at all possible I think there should be a straight, linear demarcation. Something more than two strands of barbed wire, but even that would help. People should be able to tell where the actual line is.

It occurs to me these knuckleheads who scale the fence may be doing so as a distraction, to occupy border agents while something else is being smuggled through elsewhere. That might sound CT-ish but border dynamics are pretty convoluted.

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Old 26th November 2018, 05:02 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
What a sad story. I hope there is some explanation for the injuries that does not involve torture subsidized by the federal government. Negligence seems pretty cut-and-dried though.

ETA: This is pretty sick:
Quote:
The report said that the company, which owns 45 correctional facilities and 24 residential facilities, is the second-largest private prison company in the country. As the number of detainees skyrocketed earlier this year, the CEO expressed excitement to his investors about the “robust kind of sales environment.”
People investing in human misery ... this is a kind of trafficking ... detainees become commodities moved around for profit.

Jesus, how is that not human trafficking?

ETA2: I'd rather see catch-and-release than this vile motive injected into a humanitarian situation. The quote is from Fortune BTW - I did not see it in the Daily Beast article. I could have just missed it.

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Old 26th November 2018, 05:21 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I'm not an advocate of The Wall but if the map shows a straight, linear border then where at all possible I think there should be a straight, linear demarcation.
It's not possible there unless you reroute the river.

Quote:
It occurs to me these knuckleheads who scale the fence may be doing so as a distraction, to occupy border agents while something else is being smuggled through elsewhere. That might sound CT-ish but border dynamics are pretty convoluted.
I doubt it's anything so sophisticated. I think the idea is simply that if enough people rush the border, the border patrol can't catch them all.
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Old 26th November 2018, 05:27 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I'm not an advocate of The Wall but if the map shows a straight, linear border then where at all possible I think there should be a straight, linear demarcation. Something more than two strands of barbed wire, but even that would help. People should be able to tell where the actual line is.

It occurs to me these knuckleheads who scale the fence may be doing so as a distraction, to occupy border agents while something else is being smuggled through elsewhere. That might sound CT-ish but border dynamics are pretty convoluted.
The Tijuana River (known locally as the **** river due to TJ water treatment facilities) makes a straight line difficult there.

I personally have been across that border on foot, however it was almost 30 years ago.

ETA: Ninja'd by Zig
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Old 26th November 2018, 05:41 PM   #392
Minoosh
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
The Tijuana River (known locally as the **** river due to TJ water treatment facilities) makes a straight line difficult there.

I personally have been across that border on foot, however it was almost 30 years ago.

ETA: Ninja'd by Zig
In the areas where I've been the border could have been drawn with a ruler. There is a northward flowing drainage ditch/creek that is diverted underground beneath the port of entry infrastructure (large concrete plaza). I have not inspected it closely.

Until fairly recently the actual border was marked with steel mats and, in the hills, a modest barbed wire fence. But then by my "fairly recently" standards it could have been 30 years ago also

Having a no-man's-land sounds like a bad idea. I realize it can't be helped on the Rio Grande. I've never been to Tijuana, but I also noticed that it was difficult to picture what was going on during Sunday's incident.
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Old 26th November 2018, 06:34 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Bullhonkies.

You are not doing your side any favors.

I'm only saying what is really on my mind. I'm not trying to win converts.
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Old 26th November 2018, 06:49 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
I'm only saying what is really on my mind. I'm not trying to win converts.
I believe that. But that's precisely the problem: you've lost touch with reality on the topic. Step back from the internet. Take a break. Ignore the news. Try it for a week. I think you'll notice two things: your own state of mind will get better, and the world won't fall apart just because you aren't still arguing with people on the internet. And if I'm right, then try it for a month. Hell, try it for a year.

You're not happy, Travis. It's time to make a change.
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Old 26th November 2018, 07:26 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I believe that. But that's precisely the problem: you've lost touch with reality on the topic. Step back from the internet. Take a break. Ignore the news. Try it for a week. I think you'll notice two things: your own state of mind will get better, and the world won't fall apart just because you aren't still arguing with people on the internet. And if I'm right, then try it for a month. Hell, try it for a year.

You're not happy, Travis. It's time to make a change.
*looks both ways carefully*

Contemplation Revamps?
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Old 26th November 2018, 08:19 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
I'm only saying what is really on my mind. I'm not trying to win converts.
Good thing, then, since you come off rather poorly.

On the other hand, I'm roughly sympathetic to many of your positions and wish you would shut the hell up. Because, honestly, you do my position no good. You are your own straw man.
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Old 26th November 2018, 09:19 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Good thing, then, since you come off rather poorly.

On the other hand, I'm roughly sympathetic to many of your positions and wish you would shut the hell up. Because, honestly, you do my position no good. You are your own straw man.
Some kind of a Poe? "A CT parody, if done well enough, will be indistinguishable from a real CT"?

And the Travis corollary: "An extreme CT is indistinguishable from a parody"?
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Old 26th November 2018, 10:04 PM   #398
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Most of the migrants want to enter the US legally, and present their case for Asylum - which is something the Trump administration wants to make really difficult to slow the entry, make people wait in Mexico and hopefully cause them to give up.

It isn't the migrants who are disrespecting US law, it is the US disrespecting International Law.
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Old 26th November 2018, 10:19 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
I'm only saying what is really on my mind. I'm not trying to win converts.
When my obligations in the U.S. are gone I might throw myself into documenting crap situations involving social justice cases. Not protesting. I have friends who go to federal court each week just to witness and document the process going on with asylum applicants and others. To be useful I'd need more Spanish but that's doable. Certainly more doable than Arabic (I'm also interested in the Middle East).

I don't use much social media - the quality of the information isn't that good, and sometimes deliberately misleading. I'm not saying that is happening here, but personally I like to see things for myself rather than rely on memes and narratives. Who knows if I will actually do these things, but I will be in a position like that. Are you able to do something like this? Not abandon your home or anything, but just to become more involved in constructive action?
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Old 26th November 2018, 11:39 PM   #400
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A trans women held by ICE died after being whipped then deprived of all water for days. But I'm the crazy one for thinking that a policy of cruelty is leading us down the road to genocide.
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