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Tags donald trump , immigration issues , Trump controversies

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Old 5th November 2018, 12:52 PM   #241
dudalb
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No worries. I'm immune to his bigotry.

You see, I know I'm dealing with a Holocaust Denier. What could be more scurrilous than that?
I wear that attacks I have received from the Holocaust Deniers and other assorted bigots here as a badge of honor.
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Old 5th November 2018, 01:02 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Of course, but can you do that with a pay rate that doesn't make the whole thing unprofitable.
If you can't, perhaps you shouldn't be in that business.

Quote:
If I were living a nice, comfortable life in the east in a modest job paying, say $25/hr, I would not be prepared to up-sticks to Iowa to work on a farm for less than $100/hr.
If you were employed at $12.50/hour, would it still take $100/hr to entice you to move for a farm job? Or might you move for something less? What if you were unemployed? What if you lived in Des Moines, Iowa, would it be easier to move to a farm in Iowa?

The fact that you personally wouldn't consider it for less than $100/hr doesn't mean that anything close to $100/hr is what it would take to get a comparably large domestic work force.

Quote:
People say that "agriculture" is just another industry not different from any other. This is wrong. Agriculture is a PRIMARY industry, a country cannot survive and prosper without it.
That isn't a risk we're facing.

Even assuming an immediate deportation of every illegal immigrant, more than half the workforce would remain at current salary levels. Salary levels would increase to try to get more workers, and some fraction would be replaced with legal workers. Some farm businesses might close, but not all of them. And labor requirements are not uniformly distributed across the industry. They are heavily concentrated in crops where harvesting is not mechanized. The biggest US food crops (corn, wheat, soy, potatoes) are very mechanized, which means that they don't need a large labor force to begin with. Same with cotton and hay, which are major non-food crops. A heavily mechanized crop can absorb significant salary increases with pretty small product price increases. We can survive as a country even if the strawberry industry (for example) dies.

But again, that's not a realistic scenario. We could get a decrease in incoming illegal immigration and an increase in illegal immigrants being deported or choosing to leave, and thus a net decrease in the illegal immigrant population over time. But that's not going to happen instantaneously. Furthermore, there are visa programs specifically for agricultural workers that could and likely would expand in such a scenario.

So while there might well be negative consequences for the agricultural industry, as well as higher food prices for consumers, your doomsday scenario isn't really realistic.
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Old 5th November 2018, 01:05 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
As a small, potentially relevant point to the idea that, labour prices may simply be going up because the number of available workers is down. Essentially, the urban jobless or under-employed may quite simply be unable to get to these wonderful high-paying rural opportunities.
Transportation is a cost that needs to be included. But if that's all that's keeping urban jobless people from working on farms that need them, then somebody's going to fill that role. The farmers will pay directly for it if they have to, that's just a form of increased labor costs.
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Old 5th November 2018, 01:17 PM   #244
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The H-2A temporary visa program for agricultural workers has a lot of problems associated with it. The advocacy group Farmworker Justice is highly critical of it.

https://www.farmworkerjustice.org/si....a.6%20fwj.pdf

Quote:
Farmers Wait, And Wait, For Guest Workers Amid H-2A Visa Delays
Quote:
The reasons vary from year to year, but the outcome is the same. As a result, says Kristi Boswell with the American Farm Bureau, farmers have reported losses of up to $300,000.
Quote:
Dan Kent says he has tried to hire locally, but it's never worked out. As for offering higher wages, Kent says his crew from Mexico will earn $11.74 an hour. When he factors in their food, housing and travel, it's more than what he takes for himself.

"For the sake of keeping this whole project alive, I'm going to try this," Kent says. "But until I can figure out a way to make more than my workers, I'm not apt to pay them $15 or $18 or $25 an hour. It would make me come unhinged."
https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt...2a-visa-delays
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Old 5th November 2018, 01:32 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
The H-2A temporary visa program for agricultural workers has a lot of problems associated with it. The advocacy group Farmworker Justice is highly critical of it.

https://www.farmworkerjustice.org/si....a.6%20fwj.pdf




https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt...2a-visa-delays
I don't see how those issues can't be fixed by improved processing of the visas.
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Old 5th November 2018, 01:41 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Transportation is a cost that needs to be included. But if that's all that's keeping urban jobless people from working on farms that need them, then somebody's going to fill that role. The farmers will pay directly for it if they have to, that's just a form of increased labor costs.
We also have to keep in mind that this work on farms is seasonal and short-term, which is why they have used immigrant labor in the past. The reason farmers can't find domestic labor for these gigs is because it objectively sucks for what they get paid. Short term, manual labor, outdoors, poor pay, no benefits, far from home, all that for bosses that have been spoiled by a desperate workforce for decades. People aren't going to uproot their lives for such transient work unless it pays really well.
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Old 5th November 2018, 02:02 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No worries. I'm immune to his bigotry.

You see, I know I'm dealing with a Holocaust Denier. What could be more scurrilous than that?
Frankly, it's not about you, but about the sort of attacks we ought to allow here. Saying you engaged in genocide by your post is beyond the pale, regardless of whether it's water off a duck's back or not.
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Old 5th November 2018, 02:27 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
We also have to keep in mind that this work on farms is seasonal and short-term, which is why they have used immigrant labor in the past. The reason farmers can't find domestic labor for these gigs is because it objectively sucks for what they get paid. Short term, manual labor, outdoors, poor pay, no benefits, far from home, all that for bosses that have been spoiled by a desperate workforce for decades. People aren't going to uproot their lives for such transient work unless it pays really well.
I guess the word "itinerant" isn't in the vocabulary of those who live in the fantasy world where urban dwellers are going to just pack up their lives and move thousands of miles for a few weeks work.
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Old 5th November 2018, 02:32 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What if you lived in Des Moines, Iowa, would it be easier to move to a farm in Iowa?
If I lived in Des Moines, Iowa, I would already have a skilled job; in fact, I could take my pick of jobs.

There is a severe worker shortage in Des Moines...

https://www.wsj.com/articles/iowas-e...ple-1522580400

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...oyment/564527/

... so I don't think urban dwellers are going to be moving from Des Moines to rural Iowa to work in numbers on farms any time soon; at least, not in the numbers required.
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Old 5th November 2018, 02:38 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I wear that attacks I have received from the Holocaust Deniers and other assorted bigots here as a badge of honor.
Yep. I think it was Joe Morgue who said "If I'm going to be somebody's boogeyman no matter what I do, then all I need to do is be the best person I can be and wear people's hatred as a badge of honor"
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- Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920
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Old 5th November 2018, 02:40 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yep. I think it was Joe Morgue who said "If I'm going to be somebody's boogeyman no matter what I do, then all I need to do is be the best person I can be and wear people's hatred as a badge of honor"
Twas'

Right now the single most annoying people in "The discussion" are the people with a firm grasp on the simple fact that you can't please everyone yet stubbornly refuse to understand why you can't always please them.
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Old 5th November 2018, 02:53 PM   #252
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So the NYT ran an editorial cartoon about Trump's border troop deployment, and in the process managed to illustrate that they have no clue what they're talking about:
https://twitter.com/nytopinion/statu...46136807096320
Can you spot the obvious problem?
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Old 5th November 2018, 02:57 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So the NYT ran an editorial cartoon about Trump's border troop deployment, and in the process managed to illustrate that they have no clue what they're talking about:
https://twitter.com/nytopinion/statu...46136807096320
Can you spot the obvious problem?
Would your point be repeating the conservative echo chamber line that is represented in the replies to your link?
Quote:
NYT thinks our troops want to fight in the Middle East instead of protecting America's border.
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Old 5th November 2018, 03:00 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So the NYT ran an editorial cartoon about Trump's border troop deployment, and in the process managed to illustrate that they have no clue what they're talking about:
https://twitter.com/nytopinion/statu...46136807096320
Can you spot the obvious problem?
That someone posted a twitter link?

ETA - There was a Rand Corporation survey on why people really enlist. Top reasons included Adventure / Travel, Job Training and "Call to Serve."

ETA2- cartoon says "enroll" not enlist, which is odd.

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Old 5th November 2018, 03:01 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Would your point be repeating the conservative echo chamber line that is represented in the replies to your link?
Nope. The problem I'm referring to has got nothing to do with the middle east. In fact, it's got nothing to do with politics at all, at least not intrinsically.

But I'm amused to see you didn't notice it either.
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Old 5th November 2018, 03:03 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
That someone posted a twitter link?
I considered linking to the NYT's web page, but they actually figured out their screw up and fixed it there. The twitter version preserves it, though. But if you can't figure out the mistake on your own, well, you can compare the two versions and find out.

Quote:
ETA - There was a Rand Corporation survey on why people really enlist. Top reasons included Adventure / Travel, Job Training and "Call to Serve."
The screw up isn't about why they enlist. But you're getting closer.
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Old 5th November 2018, 03:03 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Nope. The problem I'm referring to has got nothing to do with the middle east. In fact, it's got nothing to do with politics at all, at least not intrinsically.

But I'm amused to see you didn't notice it either.
Well, mind-reading has never been my strong suit. I guess, technically, it's no one's strong suit.

My kids also liked playing guessing games where anything people guessed was wrong. Thankfully, they've grown out of it.
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Old 5th November 2018, 03:06 PM   #258
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Yay Zig, guessing games!
I was going to compliment you on your reply to smartcooky regarding economics. Now I don't know if you are a single poster or a random collective.
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Old 5th November 2018, 03:08 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Well, mind-reading has never been my strong suit. I guess, technically, it's no one's strong suit.

My kids also liked playing guessing games where anything people guessed was wrong. Thankfully, they've grown out of it.
Oh, but you don't have to guess at what I'm thinking. You can compare versions. The Twitter version has a mistake, the linked NYT page version has it fixed. No guessing is required, just some simple observation. Even if you don't know what's wrong with the Twitter version (and it's not complicated), just spot the change.
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Old 5th November 2018, 03:09 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Nope. The problem I'm referring to has got nothing to do with the middle east. In fact, it's got nothing to do with politics at all, at least not intrinsically.

But I'm amused to see you didn't notice it either.
I'm pretty good at these:

- the top red stripe on the flag is barely visible;
- there are no stars on the flag;
- Trump's hands are too large;
- Trump's tie is too short;

ETA: Enrolled v. enlisted: at least I was on the right track!
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Old 5th November 2018, 03:12 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Oh, but you don't have to guess at what I'm thinking. You can compare versions. The Twitter version has a mistake, the linked NYT page version has it fixed. No guessing is required, just some simple observation. Even if you don't know what's wrong with the Twitter version (and it's not complicated), just spot the change.
You're saying they don't know what they are talking about over... what? A typo? A typo they've apparently corrected?


um... boo? Fake news?
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Old 5th November 2018, 03:13 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Yay Zig, guessing games!
I was going to compliment you on your reply to smartcooky regarding economics. Now I don't know if you are a single poster or a random collective.
You, Upchurch and carlitos are a random collective. And none of you can spot the mistake. carlitos got so close, though. So if you still can't figure it out, I'll give you the answer.
You enlist in the military, you don't enroll in it.
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Old 5th November 2018, 03:15 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
You're saying they don't know what they are talking about over... what? A typo? A typo they've apparently corrected?


um... boo? Fake news?
A typo would be two l's in "enlisted". That wasn't a typo.

And it can't be fake news since it's not news at all, it's a cartoon. But it does reveal a news organization that's out of touch with much of the country, since it never jumped out at either the cartoonist or his editors that nobody enrolls in the military. Apparently much of this board is similarly disconnected.
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Old 5th November 2018, 03:16 PM   #264
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Yeah, I noticed that (and said so above). Not sure what you mean by the "linked" NYT page "version" as I don't see an NYT link in this thread.
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Old 5th November 2018, 03:18 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You, Upchurch and carlitos are a random collective. And none of you can spot the mistake. carlitos got so close, though. So if you still can't figure it out, I'll give you the answer.
You enlist in the military, you don't enroll in it.

That's truly pathetic that you think that's worth pointing out.
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Old 5th November 2018, 03:18 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Yeah, I noticed that (and said so above). Not sure what you mean by the "linked" NYT page "version" as I don't see an NYT link in this thread.
The link is in the tweet.
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Old 5th November 2018, 03:19 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
That's truly pathetic that you think that's worth pointing out.
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Old 5th November 2018, 03:22 PM   #268
carlitos
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P1 - If someone doesn't immediately notice a mistake in this cartoon, they are "disconnected" from the military and real AmericansTM
P2 - OMG, it took like 12 minutes for someone on the ISF to notice the mistake on a twitter link they are probably viewing on their phone during the work day on a Monday
C - This board is a bunch of disconnected liberals.

That's some mighty weak logical sauce, my friend.
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Old 5th November 2018, 03:24 PM   #269
LSSBB
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You, Upchurch and carlitos are a random collective. And none of you can spot the mistake. carlitos got so close, though. So if you still can't figure it out, I'll give you the answer.
You enlist in the military, you don't enroll in it.
I didn't do either. I got Commissioned.

So there.
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Old 5th November 2018, 03:24 PM   #270
Upchurch
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
A typo would be two l's in "enlisted". That wasn't a typo.

And it can't be fake news since it's not news at all, it's a cartoon. But it does reveal a news organization that's out of touch with much of the country, since it never jumped out at either the cartoonist or his editors that nobody enrolls in the military. Apparently much of this board is similarly disconnected.
Oh, you shore out thunk them New York boys! Har har!

I forgot what a riot you could be. Not like an autocorrect could have possibly caused that, or anything. But moreover, tying that to being out of touch with much of the country? How do you put that together?
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Old 5th November 2018, 03:24 PM   #271
carlitos
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I heard that sometimes people got drafted too.
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Old 5th November 2018, 03:29 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Oh, you shore out thunk them New York boys! Har har!

I forgot what a riot you could be. Not like an autocorrect could have possibly caused that, or anything.
The lettering is hand drawn, it's not a font. Not sure how autocorrect works on that.

Given the topic of this thread, though, it's funny that this is what y'all find unreasonable.
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Old 5th November 2018, 03:30 PM   #273
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
I didn't do either. I got Commissioned.

So there.
Well played, good sir.
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Old 5th November 2018, 03:48 PM   #274
Upchurch
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The lettering is hand drawn, it's not a font. Not sure how autocorrect works on that.
Argument from incredulity? Okay. This 8s neither the time nor place to explain something like this to you.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Given the topic of this thread, though, it's funny that this is what y'all find unreasonable.
What's really wrong is Trump using troops for a political stunt unrelated to their duties.
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Old 5th November 2018, 03:51 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
That is one ridiculous argument. His workers essentially disappeared over night. That's what cause him the problem. If his workers had all been 5'8" tall, could we then conclude that it is impossible for him to harvest his crops with workers who are shorter or taller?
What workers disappeared overnight? Why did they disappear?
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Old 5th November 2018, 03:54 PM   #276
carlitos
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You, Upchurch and carlitos are a random collective. And none of you can spot the mistake. carlitos got so close, though. So if you still can't figure it out, I'll give you the answer.
You enlist in the military, you don't enroll in it.
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Old 5th November 2018, 04:23 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
What workers disappeared overnight? Why did they disappear?
Did you consider reading the article? The very first paragraph will tell you the answer.
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Old 5th November 2018, 04:26 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So the NYT ran an editorial cartoon about Trump's border troop deployment, and in the process managed to illustrate that they have no clue what they're talking about:
https://twitter.com/nytopinion/statu...46136807096320
Can you spot the obvious problem?
I've got this

The Stars and Stripes has no stars, and the wrong number of stripes.
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Old 5th November 2018, 04:34 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I've got this

The Stars and Stripes has no stars, and the wrong number of stripes.
Also, the sign says “BORDER MEXICO” when in should read “BORDER WALL”.

NYT, so out of touch with real ‘mericans.
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Old 5th November 2018, 05:30 PM   #280
wareyin
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Did you consider reading the article? The very first paragraph will tell you the answer.
It tells me they disappeared because of a crackdown on illegal immigrants. The thing* you asked for evidence of, but said the article didn't support. So now I'm wondering what the article told you.

*Yes, I know you asked for evidence of crops rotting in the field for lack of illegal immigrants. That tomato farmer is telling you that he doesn't have workers because of a crackdown on illegal immigrants, so his crops are rotting on the vine. Your previous response was asking about their height, for some reason that I assume made sense to you at the time.
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