ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags donald trump , immigration issues , Trump controversies

Reply
Old 5th November 2018, 05:43 PM   #281
Mikemcc
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 1,748
Why is this causing so much stress? The ideal stategy for the US is that they build structures that processs migrants (and families) into channels where they can be processsed for such things as eligibility to work. It worked perfectly for Von Braun and his mates. Is being Aryan Nazi a good enough excuse or maybe a pre-requisite in post -Trumpian USA?
Mikemcc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2018, 06:07 PM   #282
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
 
LSSBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 19,761
Originally Posted by Mikemcc View Post
Why is this causing so much stress? The ideal stategy for the US is that they build structures that processs migrants (and families) into channels where they can be processsed for such things as eligibility to work. It worked perfectly for Von Braun and his mates. Is being Aryan Nazi a good enough excuse or maybe a pre-requisite in post -Trumpian USA?
Well, see, they'd have to fill a need in the economy that's not getting adequately filled right now (like they would if we just let them sneak across the border). And not be a threat to people here (like gun-toting citizens that shoot up concerts and schools).
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles
LSSBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2018, 07:33 PM   #283
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,362
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Did it ever occur to you that the time stamp is when a post gets submitted, not when it gets started?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2018, 07:45 PM   #284
RecoveringYuppy
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,883
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Did it ever occur to you that the time stamp is when a post gets submitted, not when it gets started?

So you agree carlitos got it?
__________________
REJ (Robert E Jones) posting anonymously under my real name for 30 years.

Make a fire for a man and you keep him warm for a day. Set him on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 02:50 AM   #285
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,178
Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
It tells me they disappeared because of a crackdown on illegal immigrants. The thing* you asked for evidence of, but said the article didn't support. So now I'm wondering what the article told you.

*Yes, I know you asked for evidence of crops rotting in the field for lack of illegal immigrants. That tomato farmer is telling you that he doesn't have workers because of a crackdown on illegal immigrants, so his crops are rotting on the vine. Your previous response was asking about their height, for some reason that I assume made sense to you at the time.
And it would make sense to you too if you stopped a minute and considered it. As stated in the story, the reason this farmer experienced problems is that his illegal workforce was removed overnight and he had no opportunity to hire anybody else in time. Had he gone through the proper channels originally he would not have had this problem as legal workers can do exactly the same job as the illegal ones.

Hence my comment about height. Saying he cannot harvest his crops without illegal workers, on account of the previous bunch being illegal, is as illogical as saying he cannot harvest his crops without workers who are 5'8" tall, on account of the previous bunch being 5'8" tall.
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 03:58 AM   #286
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 44,727
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
We also have to keep in mind that this work on farms is seasonal and short-term, which is why they have used immigrant labor in the past. The reason farmers can't find domestic labor for these gigs is because it objectively sucks for what they get paid. Short term, manual labor, outdoors, poor pay, no benefits, far from home, all that for bosses that have been spoiled by a desperate workforce for decades. People aren't going to uproot their lives for such transient work unless it pays really well.
But remember the goal of the republican party is to make it so the poors are that desperate.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 05:16 AM   #287
wareyin
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,516
Originally Posted by baron View Post
And it would make sense to you too if you stopped a minute and considered it. As stated in the story, the reason this farmer experienced problems is that his illegal workforce was removed overnight and he had no opportunity to hire anybody else in time. Had he gone through the proper channels originally he would not have had this problem as legal workers can do exactly the same job as the illegal ones.

Hence my comment about height. Saying he cannot harvest his crops without illegal workers, on account of the previous bunch being illegal, is as illogical as saying he cannot harvest his crops without workers who are 5'8" tall, on account of the previous bunch being 5'8" tall.
It appears you didn't read the entire article, then. The farmer also complained about a lack of legal applicants. He did not say whether the only 2 people who applied but stole 2 baskets for every one basket they picked for him were 5'8" or not, however.
wareyin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 05:25 AM   #288
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,362
Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
So you agree carlitos got it?
Sure.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 06:15 AM   #289
eeyore1954
Philosopher
 
eeyore1954's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,325
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't understand why Trump is building new camps. Aren't the FEMA death camps left over from the Clintons still in good enough shape?

I demand my dystopian deathcult oppression be run economically.
And what about all the ones President Bush built.
I didn't hear much about the ones President Obama built maybe he controlled leaks better.
eeyore1954 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 06:32 AM   #290
eeyore1954
Philosopher
 
eeyore1954's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,325
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Uneducated? Well then, Trump should LOVE them!http://www.internationalskeptics.com...e28faa225b.png

Farmers are complaining their crops are rotting because they can't hire anyone to harvest them.

Quote:
Vegetable prices may be going up soon, as a shortage of migrant workers is resulting in lost crops in California.

Farmers say they’re having trouble hiring enough people to work during harvest season, causing some crops to rot before they can be picked. Already, the situation has triggered losses of more than $13 million in two California counties alone, according to NBC News.

The ongoing battle about U.S. immigration policies is blamed for the shortage. The vast majority of California’s farm workers are foreign born, with many coming from Mexico. However, the PEW Research Center reports more Mexicans are leaving the U.S. than coming here.


http://fortune.com/2017/08/08/immigr...rotting-crops/
13,000,000 was lost. Some crops are always lost because of logistics and short time frame for harvesting. Farmers have always had trouble iwth this. Listen to the whole video. It isn't just now.
One of the two counties is Santa Barbara and according to this link over 1,000,000,000 is harvested in that county. http://www.seecalifornia.com/farms/c...ual-crops.html
Doesn't really seem unreasonable. And it seems current policies have had very little effect on the total picture.

Last edited by eeyore1954; 6th November 2018 at 06:34 AM.
eeyore1954 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 06:52 AM   #291
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,178
Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
It appears you didn't read the entire article, then. The farmer also complained about a lack of legal applicants. He did not say whether the only 2 people who applied but stole 2 baskets for every one basket they picked for him were 5'8" or not, however.
That'll be because he was offering legal workers wages that only illegal workers will accept. If he is unable to pay a fair wage and succeed then he doesn't have a viable business. Exploitation of labour is not a plus point for any sort of immigration.
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 07:17 AM   #292
wareyin
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,516
Originally Posted by baron View Post
That'll be because he was offering legal workers wages that only illegal workers will accept. If he is unable to pay a fair wage and succeed then he doesn't have a viable business. Exploitation of labour is not a plus point for any sort of immigration.
The article doesn't say what he was offering. Nor does it say whether or not he was advertising what he was offering. Seems like you might be making some assumptions in order to dismiss it.
wareyin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 07:26 AM   #293
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 6,176
Current US food production is impossible with mandatory minimum wages: food would become too expensive for at-poverty-line people to afford. We would have food riots.
__________________
Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isnít.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 07:56 AM   #294
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,178
Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
The article doesn't say what he was offering. Nor does it say whether or not he was advertising what he was offering. Seems like you might be making some assumptions in order to dismiss it.
So are you suggesting he hired an entire team of illegals not because they're cheaper to employ, but because he couldn't find any legal residents of the US to do the work?
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 08:17 AM   #295
wareyin
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,516
Originally Posted by baron View Post
So are you suggesting he hired an entire team of illegals not because they're cheaper to employ, but because he couldn't find any legal residents of the US to do the work?
I suggest you read the article to see who he was able to find to do the work.
wareyin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 08:32 AM   #296
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,362
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Current US food production is impossible with mandatory minimum wages: food would become too expensive for at-poverty-line people to afford. We would have food riots.
Would we? How sure are you of that?

Our staple crops (corn, wheat, potatoes, soy, rice) all have very mechanized harvests. I suspect much of the labor for those crops is already above minimum wage, and is probably a smaller share of the costs as well. I don't think they would go up that much in price. Some crops (strawberries, for example) are very labor-intensive and would increase in price significantly if labor prices went up a lot. But nobody riots over the price of strawberries.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 08:38 AM   #297
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 6,176
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Would we? How sure are you of that?

Our staple crops (corn, wheat, potatoes, soy, rice) all have very mechanized harvests. I suspect much of the labor for those crops is already above minimum wage, and is probably a smaller share of the costs as well. I don't think they would go up that much in price. Some crops (strawberries, for example) are very labor-intensive and would increase in price significantly if labor prices went up a lot. But nobody riots over the price of strawberries.
Done properly, the extra cost might be mitigated by shifting profits from retailers to farmers - but that would require mandatory Farmer Unionizing.
__________________
Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isnít.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 08:44 AM   #298
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,178
Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
I suggest you read the article to see who he was able to find to do the work.
I refer you to the question you quoted. Why does he need to employ illegals if he isn't taking advantage of their cheap labour? He says that non-Hispanics are unreliable and don't want to do the work. For a pittance, maybe not, and even if nobody is willing to do the work for a fair wage I find it difficult to imagine he can't find a team of 60 legal Hispanics in a country of 60 million.
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 08:56 AM   #299
Worm
Master Poster
 
Worm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,360
The article didn't actually specify if his workers were illegal or not. The only specific reference is to the wife of one of his workers. Similar articles on the farm talk about fear of harassment and discrimination as a reason for leaving. I haven't seen anything that says his workers were illegal.

Perhaps they were, but from that article there is no way to know.
__________________
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" Isaac Asimov

Not all cults are bad - I've joined a cult of niceness
Worm is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 09:14 AM   #300
wareyin
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,516
Originally Posted by baron View Post
I refer you to the question you quoted. Why does he need to employ illegals if he isn't taking advantage of their cheap labour?
Probably because, as he says, he can't even get people to apply for the job when illegal immigrants are being scared away.

Quote:
He says that non-Hispanics are unreliable and don't want to do the work. For a pittance, maybe not, and even if nobody is willing to do the work for a fair wage I find it difficult to imagine he can't find a team of 60 legal Hispanics in a country of 60 million.
Yes, we've established that you assume he refused to offer more than a pittance. What you have not established is that your assumption is valid. Which country are we discussing that has 60 million? The article I thought we were discussing was about an Alabama farmer, in the USA, with a population well in excess of that. Of course, the vast majority of that population is nowhere near this farm, nor in any position to travel to it for a couple weeks worth of work.
wareyin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 09:38 AM   #301
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,178
Originally Posted by Worm View Post
The article didn't actually specify if his workers were illegal or not. The only specific reference is to the wife of one of his workers. Similar articles on the farm talk about fear of harassment and discrimination as a reason for leaving. I haven't seen anything that says his workers were illegal.

Perhaps they were, but from that article there is no way to know.
I don't see why legal workers would leave 'literally overnight' due to a crackdown on illegal workers.

Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Probably because, as he says, he can't even get people to apply for the job when illegal immigrants are being scared away.
Why not?

Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Yes, we've established that you assume he refused to offer more than a pittance. What you have not established is that your assumption is valid. Which country are we discussing that has 60 million?
The US. 60 million Hispanics in the US.

Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
The article I thought we were discussing was about an Alabama farmer, in the USA, with a population well in excess of that. Of course, the vast majority of that population is nowhere near this farm, nor in any position to travel to it for a couple weeks worth of work.
The article says it's four months' work, not two weeks. Then it states his previous workforce would travel 600 miles for the work. How many Hispanics are within a 600 mile radius of his farm?
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 09:53 AM   #302
Worm
Master Poster
 
Worm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,360
Originally Posted by baron View Post
I don't see why legal workers would leave 'literally overnight' due to a crackdown on illegal workers.
Well one of the reasons given in the article was that one of his senior workers feared what would happen to his wife. The worker himself was legal.

As I noted, other articles have cited fears about harassment, but do not specify if this was because of illegal status, or just fear of general harassment due to being Hispanic.

From what has been said about the amount of illegal workers in the farm system, I wouldn't be surprised if a reasonable proportion of his workers were illegal, but I was just making the point that the article does not specify.

ETA: I also wouldn't be surprised - as seems to be implied in the article - if many of these workers operate as a team. I could then see how if they move around together, and if enough of them want to move on due to concerns then the whole team while move on, even if many of them are not directly affected. (this is in no way supported by evidence, it is purely my own opinion)
__________________
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" Isaac Asimov

Not all cults are bad - I've joined a cult of niceness

Last edited by Worm; 6th November 2018 at 09:55 AM.
Worm is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 09:59 AM   #303
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,178
Originally Posted by Worm View Post
Well one of the reasons given in the article was that one of his senior workers feared what would happen to his wife. The worker himself was legal.

As I noted, other articles have cited fears about harassment, but do not specify if this was because of illegal status, or just fear of general harassment due to being Hispanic.

From what has been said about the amount of illegal workers in the farm system, I wouldn't be surprised if a reasonable proportion of his workers were illegal, but I was just making the point that the article does not specify.

ETA: I also wouldn't be surprised - as seems to be implied in the article - if many of these workers operate as a team. I could then see how if they move around together, and if enough of them want to move on due to concerns then the whole team while move on, even if many of them are not directly affected. (this is in no way supported by evidence, it is purely my own opinion)
Well, if it's general harassment then that's a different matter, and obviously it's a poor state of affairs where people are targeted purely because of their appearance. My point is that, at the very least, there is no evidence this guy couldn't work his farm if he had not invested his efforts into illegal or partially illegal labour, and done everything by the book from day one.
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 10:03 AM   #304
Worm
Master Poster
 
Worm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,360
There is also no evidence that he invested his efforts into illegal or partly illegal labour. There is no evidence (that I have seen) about the legal status of his workforce at all.

Only supposition. Which may or may not be accurate. But is not evidence.
__________________
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" Isaac Asimov

Not all cults are bad - I've joined a cult of niceness
Worm is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 10:03 AM   #305
eeyore1954
Philosopher
 
eeyore1954's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,325
If people are being put into concentration camps I believe any labor shortages can be easily addressed.
eeyore1954 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 10:06 AM   #306
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,178
Originally Posted by Worm View Post
There is also no evidence that he invested his efforts into illegal or partly illegal labour. There is no evidence (that I have seen) about the legal status of his workforce at all.

Only supposition. Which may or may not be accurate. But is not evidence.
Well it's a damn strange story then. Unless it's about how farmers rely on illegal labour, what is it's point?
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 10:07 AM   #307
wareyin
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,516
Originally Posted by baron View Post
I don't see why legal workers would leave 'literally overnight' due to a crackdown on illegal workers.
Then we agree that this farmer has fruit rotting on the vine due to lack of illegal immigrants, I take it?

Originally Posted by baron View Post
Why not?
For a variety of reasons, I'm sure. Not many people enjoy taking on jobs that only last a short period of time, for instance. I'm sure you'll get around to explaining how this proves your assumption correct soon, correct?

Originally Posted by baron View Post
The US. 60 million Hispanics in the US.
I didn't realize you were limiting your scope of available farm workers to Hispanics.


Originally Posted by baron View Post
The article says it's four months' work, not two weeks. Then it states his previous workforce would travel 600 miles for the work. How many Hispanics are within a 600 mile radius of his farm?
Travelling hundreds of miles for a few months of work with no guarantees? I can't imagine why it would be hard to fill those type of positions.
wareyin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 10:12 AM   #308
Worm
Master Poster
 
Worm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,360
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Well it's a damn strange story then. Unless it's about how farmers rely on illegal labour, what is it's point?
It's point is to report on the effect of the tougher laws that were introduced. Those effects are being felt in a variety of places, for a variety of reasons. Many of them will involve illegal migrant workers, but many will not.

To be clear: I am not saying that the workers on this guy's farm who left were not illegal. They may have been. What I am saying is that from that article we do not know. The only specific details given are about one worker who was legal.
__________________
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" Isaac Asimov

Not all cults are bad - I've joined a cult of niceness
Worm is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 10:31 AM   #309
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,178
Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Then we agree that this farmer has fruit rotting on the vine due to lack of illegal immigrants, I take it?
No, as I've explained. He has fruit rotting on the vine due to his failure to secure an adequate, legal workforce.

Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
For a variety of reasons, I'm sure. Not many people enjoy taking on jobs that only last a short period of time, for instance. I'm sure you'll get around to explaining how this proves your assumption correct soon, correct?
What has that to do with your assertion that "he can't even get people to apply for the job when illegal immigrants are being scared away"?

Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
I didn't realize you were limiting your scope of available farm workers to Hispanics.
No, the farmer did that. But if you want to include more people in the pool to strengthen my argument then go right ahead.

Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Travelling hundreds of miles for a few months of work with no guarantees? I can't imagine why it would be hard to fill those type of positions.
Neither can I. I know people who have travelled four thousand miles - one case 9000 miles - for a summer's work.

Originally Posted by Worm View Post
It's point is to report on the effect of the tougher laws that were introduced. Those effects are being felt in a variety of places, for a variety of reasons. Many of them will involve illegal migrant workers, but many will not.

To be clear: I am not saying that the workers on this guy's farm who left were not illegal. They may have been. What I am saying is that from that article we do not know. The only specific details given are about one worker who was legal.
If they weren't illegal then the article should have made clear the connection between workers leaving the farm 'literally overnight' to tightening immigration checks. Unless you assume they were illegal, or in the main illegal, it doesn't make much sense.
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 11:21 AM   #310
wareyin
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,516
Originally Posted by baron View Post
No, as I've explained. He has fruit rotting on the vine due to his failure to secure an adequate, legal workforce.
What a fun game, where we talk about his rotting fruit, agree that he lost the workers necessary to harvest it due to a crackdown on illegal immigrants, and then pretend we can't see how illegal immigrants enter into the picture at all.



Quote:
What has that to do with your assertion that "he can't even get people to apply for the job when illegal immigrants are being scared away"?
That was the farmer's assertion, not mine. But I'm sure you'll be along with evidence of applications filled out by legal workers any second now.



Quote:
No, the farmer did that. But if you want to include more people in the pool to strengthen my argument then go right ahead.
I see, you have some sort of quote from that farmer about only hiring Hispanic people? Was it in that article or another one. I must have missed it somehow.



Quote:
Neither can I. I know people who have travelled four thousand miles - one case 9000 miles - for a summer's work.
Sure you do.


Quote:
If they weren't illegal then the article should have made clear the connection between workers leaving the farm 'literally overnight' to tightening immigration checks. Unless you assume they were illegal, or in the main illegal, it doesn't make much sense.
Ok, you need to make up your mind. Did the farmer in question lose a workforce of illegal immigrants or not?
wareyin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 11:46 AM   #311
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,178
Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
What a fun game, where we talk about his rotting fruit, agree that he lost the workers necessary to harvest it due to a crackdown on illegal immigrants, and then pretend we can't see how illegal immigrants enter into the picture at all.
Obvious straw man is obvious. Clearly illegal immigrants 'enter the picture', the point under discussion is whether they are essential in order for the farm to function. The fact that a bunch of people disappeared overnight is moot. So have fun with that instead.

Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
That was the farmer's assertion, not mine. But I'm sure you'll be along with evidence of applications filled out by legal workers any second now.
Why would I do that?

Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
I see, you have some sort of quote from that farmer about only hiring Hispanic people? Was it in that article or another one. I must have missed it somehow.
Well that's what you get when you fail to read the article you're holding forth about.


Quote:
For four months every year he employs almost exclusively Hispanic male workers to pick the harvest.


...

"Somebody who really wants a good job and is prepared to work hard and honest for it isn't going to come up here for four months in the year. But Hispanics will do that, and move on to Florida when the picking's finished."
Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Sure you do.
As I say, I know (or knew) several people who travelled abroad, one to Australia, to work in bars during the summer seasons. But if you think I'm lying then fair enough, I guess people move in difference circles, and work ethics differ.

Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Ok, you need to make up your mind. Did the farmer in question lose a workforce of illegal immigrants or not?
Read the article, and the three posts where I explicitly state this to be a fact. Then remind yourself that the point under discussion is whether illegal immigrants are necessary for the farm to function, not whether the sudden absence of a workforce might cause problems (gee, do you reckon!?)
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 02:18 PM   #312
eeyore1954
Philosopher
 
eeyore1954's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,325
CFBF survey: Farmers report challenges hiring help for harvest
Quote:
Nearly two-thirds of farmers who responded to a survey by the California Farm Bureau Federation said they experienced challenges finding enough employees to tend and harvest crops
The evil Trump policy strikes again.

Although this was from 2012. Maybe it was President Obama's fault then?

I worked on farms in the central valley of CA back in the early 70s. It was a problem then too. I remember bucking hay practically all night because the alfalfa bales were sitting in the field with not enough people to load it. Nowadays this is almost always mechanized.
Don't know about now but back then there also was no mandatory overtime for farm work.

Last edited by eeyore1954; 6th November 2018 at 02:20 PM.
eeyore1954 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 02:35 PM   #313
Cainkane1
Philosopher
 
Cainkane1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: The great American southeast
Posts: 8,505
Originally Posted by Travis View Post
So, looks like we are full speed ahead with creating concentration camps. Trump just announced a new policy of capturing and then not releasing immigrants. Just keep collecting them. Sooner or later the right will find convenient quarries where they can be killed.
Trump will not kill them. Incarceration in an effort to try to keep these illegals out is not an atrocity. Its the illegals fault for being here illegally in the first place.

Russia and China might do what you just described but not America.
__________________
If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.
Cainkane1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 02:44 PM   #314
wareyin
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,516
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Obvious straw man is obvious. Clearly illegal immigrants 'enter the picture', the point under discussion is whether they are essential in order for the farm to function. The fact that a bunch of people disappeared overnight is moot. So have fun with that instead.
How is the farm functioning without them, then? From the report, pretty poorly. Seems like maybe they were essential?

Originally Posted by baron View Post
Well that's what you get when you fail to read the article you're holding forth about.
Ah, so you are one who thinks almost exclusively means exclusively? And that he has in the past hired almost all Hispanic workers means that he will only hire Hispanics? Well, it seems that you might be making a few errors, here.

Originally Posted by baron View Post
Read the article, and the three posts where I explicitly state this to be a fact. Then remind yourself that the point under discussion is whether illegal immigrants are necessary for the farm to function, not whether the sudden absence of a workforce might cause problems (gee, do you reckon!?)
Great, so since the farm is not functioning without the presumably illegal immigrant workforce, we agree that that workforce was necessary for the farm to function.
wareyin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 02:51 PM   #315
eeyore1954
Philosopher
 
eeyore1954's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,325
Who picks the crops in a country like Australia.
eeyore1954 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 02:56 PM   #316
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,178
Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
How is the farm functioning without them, then? From the report, pretty poorly. Seems like maybe they were essential?



Ah, so you are one who thinks almost exclusively means exclusively? And that he has in the past hired almost all Hispanic workers means that he will only hire Hispanics? Well, it seems that you might be making a few errors, here.


Great, so since the farm is not functioning without the presumably illegal immigrant workforce, we agree that that workforce was necessary for the farm to function.
Sure, those 60 people are the only people in the entire US who can work the farm. Now they're gone, he's screwed. You win.
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 03:10 PM   #317
wareyin
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,516
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Sure, those 60 people are the only people in the entire US who can work the farm. Now they're gone, he's screwed. You win.
You seem to think that, despite what the farmer said, there's a bunch of legal workers clamoring for the job. I asked for any evidence of that, but you didn't want to support it. So, until we see evidence that there are other candidates applying for these farm jobs (and being turned away by evil reverse racist farmers who only want them Hispanics working my farm, by god!) it would certainly appear that the illegal immigrants actually are necessary.
wareyin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 03:26 PM   #318
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 17,500
Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Who picks the crops in a country like Australia.
Kangaroos drinking Fosters. 90% sure this is right.
__________________
I once proposed a fun ban.

Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa
Dr. Keith is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2018, 04:01 PM   #319
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
 
LSSBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 19,761
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Kangaroos drinking Fosters. 90% sure this is right.
That's only for hops.
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles
LSSBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2018, 02:41 AM   #320
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,178
Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
You seem to think that, despite what the farmer said, there's a bunch of legal workers clamoring for the job. I asked for any evidence of that, but you didn't want to support it. So, until we see evidence that there are other candidates applying for these farm jobs (and being turned away by evil reverse racist farmers who only want them Hispanics working my farm, by god!) it would certainly appear that the illegal immigrants actually are necessary.
So is it more reasonable to assume that this guy's problems arose from the fact all his workforce disappeared literally overnight - a fact as reported by the article, or that he is completely unable to get 60 legal workers to work on his farm despite there being no evidence that this is the case? Does it even sound likely that a viable business cannot survive with breaking the law?

And I don't know why you would come out with that 'evil reverse racist' crap. He said himself that he prefers to employ Hispanics, and that his workforce was almost totally Hispanic. If you're even interested in my view as opposed to making stuff up in lieu of a coherent argument be informed that I fully support his freedom to employ whatever race, ethnicity, colour or gender of people he wants, more power to him. Only the loony left would seek to intrude into his business and instruct him to employ more of these and less of these in the interests of 'quotas' and 'diversity'.

Hell, for all I care he can employ all the illegals he wants. None of my business. But that doesn't mean he is forced to employ them in order for his farm to survive, which is my point; it simply means that so far he's taken the easy option and now he must work within the law he's looking at tighter margins.
__________________
"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!"

Last edited by baron; 7th November 2018 at 02:42 AM.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:41 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.