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Tags aclu , civil liberties , title IX

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Old 16th November 2018, 11:31 AM   #1
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ACLU Sells Out

The Education Department has officially released new rules on how to enforce Title IX, the federal statute that forbids sex and gender-based discrimination in public schools. here is a primer on the new Regs from Washington Post to get you up to speed.

Shockingly, the ACLU raised an objection to the regs that is absolutely stunning:

"It promotes an unfair process, inappropriately favoring the accused and letting schools ignore their responsibility under Title IX to respond promptly and fairly to complaints of sexual violence."

-ACLU Tweet

"inappropriately favoring the accused" is not something I think anyone would ever have conceived the ACLU as arguing, but there it is.

Here is an article collecting objections to the ACLU's outrageous position

Quote:
Even on this front, though, the critics of Title IX reform seem to forget that the students who face sexual misconduct adjudication on campus areóas best we can tellódisproportionately men of color and immigrants. Who will speak for them, if not civil liberties organizations?
Really mind boggling....
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Old 16th November 2018, 11:38 AM   #2
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"apply basic due process protections for students, including a presumption of innocence throughout the grievance process; written notice of allegations and an equal opportunity to review all evidence collected; and the right to cross-examination"

The ACLU claims that these basic principles of due process "inappropriately" favor the accused.

Unbelievable.
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Old 16th November 2018, 11:41 AM   #3
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Hierarchy of oppression. The accused may be minorities, but they're still male minorities and thus less entitled to legal protection.
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Old 16th November 2018, 11:42 AM   #4
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Fun fact: the new rules requires schools to apply the same standard of evidence and due process to complaints against students, that they apply to complaints against faculty and staff. Which seems totally reasonable.
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Old 16th November 2018, 12:02 PM   #5
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Dumb thread is dumb. If the regulations inappropriate favor the accused, I think it should be pretty obvious the ACLU would oppose them.
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Old 16th November 2018, 12:07 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Dumb thread is dumb. If the regulations inappropriate favor the accused, I think it should be pretty obvious the ACLU would oppose them.
ACLU declares basic rights that every accused should have "inappropriate" and thus opposes them, despite the obvious fact that they aren't inappropriate at all and contradict the ACLU's basic purpose.

dumb due process always "inappropriately" favoring the accused.

hoo boy....
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Old 16th November 2018, 12:09 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Dumb thread is dumb. If the regulations inappropriate favor the accused, I think it should be pretty obvious the ACLU would oppose them.
Perhaps. But they don't.
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Old 16th November 2018, 01:05 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
ACLU declares basic rights that every accused should have "inappropriate" and thus opposes them, despite the obvious fact that they aren't inappropriate at all and contradict the ACLU's basic purpose.

dumb due process always "inappropriately" favoring the accused.
....

The new rules reduce the college's obligation to even investigate complaints.
Quote:
Under the new plan, colleges would have to investigate complaints only if the alleged incident occurred on campus or in other areas overseen by the school, and only if it was reported to certain officials. By contrast, current rules require colleges to investigate all student complaints, regardless of their location or how they came to the schoolís attention.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...?noredirect=on

Yeah, it does "inappropriately" favor the accused if the college doesn't even have to take accusations seriously.
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Old 16th November 2018, 01:06 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
ACLU declares basic rights that every accused should have "inappropriate" and thus opposes them, despite the obvious fact that they aren't inappropriate at all
This is different form what you posted and completely unsupported by any argument or evidence you have presented.
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Perhaps. But they don't.
Do you have any evidence to support this assertion?
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Old 16th November 2018, 01:13 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
This is different form what you posted and completely unsupported by any argument or evidence you have presented.


Do you have any evidence to support this assertion?
It is not different from what I have presented and I have presented links to the analysis.

Your entire contribution is to declare it "dumb."
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Old 16th November 2018, 01:15 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Yeah, it does "inappropriately" favor the accused if the college doesn't even have to take accusations seriously.
face palm.

That is not what your quote even remotely states. Did you read it?

They are obligated to investigate if the incident occurred on campus or another area overseen by the school and only if they are reported to certain campus officials with the authority to take action, they can do more but are not legally obligated to do so outside the scope of their supervision.
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Old 16th November 2018, 01:21 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
It is not different from what I have presented
Itís completely different. This isnít one word supporting your new contention that these are rights the accused should have.
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
and I have presented links to the analysis.
No, you presented a link to a right wing nutbars opinion. Opinions on the internet are not the same thing as ďanalysisĒ nor are they with wasting my time with especially when I have more than enough right wing nutbars with wack-a-doodle opinions to address right here.
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Old 16th November 2018, 01:23 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
face palm.

That is not what your quote even remotely states.

Did you read it?

Did you? The proposed rules limit the college's obligation to investigate complaints as compared with existing rules.
Quote:
Under the new plan, colleges would have to investigate complaints only if the alleged incident occurred on campus or in other areas overseen by the school, and only if it was reported to certain officials. By contrast, current rules require colleges to investigate all student complaints, regardless of their location or how they came to the schoolís attention.
So events that would have to be investigated now would not have to be investigated under the new rules. The (alleged) misconduct would never be investigated. It sure sounds like an advantage for the accused if he never even gets accused.

Last edited by Bob001; 16th November 2018 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 16th November 2018, 01:27 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Do you have any evidence to support this assertion?
Sure. The regulations themselves. I'm not sure what further evidence you think is necessary.
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Old 16th November 2018, 01:27 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Itís completely different. This isnít one word supporting your new contention that these are rights the accused should have.

No, you presented a link to a right wing nutbars opinion. Opinions on the internet are not the same thing as ďanalysisĒ nor are they with wasting my time with especially when I have more than enough right wing nutbars with wack-a-doodle opinions to address right here.
the right of cross examination is not a right that the accused should have?

Popehat and others who are quoted are declared "right wing nut bars."

That is so amazingly stunningly wrong it should be absolutely clear that you literally have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about.

But please continue to pollute the thread with grossly unfounded and totally wrong opinions so that we may gaze in awe at some of the worst arguments ever made on this forum.
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Old 16th November 2018, 01:31 PM   #16
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A tweet!?! Intriguing but kind of detail free. Wouldn't it be more useful to wait a bit to learn exactly what the ACLU's actual, detailed position is on this issue and their rationale behind their views? I might agree or not with them at that time, but right now I am happy to wait to see what their specific opinions and arguments are. I have no doubt they will supply an expanded description of their specific position on this topic at some point soon, as they have done for the other issues of interest to them. I prefer to not judge them before I know what I am judging.

In my Google search on this topic I was reminded that many people can't help rising to the bait of the right wing manipulators and become (or pretend to become) outraged by these sort of headlines prior to obtaining any substantial facts. You would think that they would realize they were being played.
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Old 16th November 2018, 01:35 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
A tweet!?! Intriguing but kind of detail free. Wouldn't it be more useful to wait a bit to learn exactly what the ACLU's actual, detailed position is on this issue and their rationale behind their views? I might agree or not with them at that time, but right now I am happy to wait to see what their specific opinions and arguments are. I have no doubt they will supply an expanded description of their specific position on this topic at some point soon, as they have done for the other issues of interest to them. I prefer to not judge them before I know what I am judging.

In my Google search on this topic I was reminded that many people can't help rising to the bait of the right wing manipulators and become (or pretend to become) outraged by these sort of headlines prior to obtaining any substantial facts. You would think that they would realize they were being played.
Are you asserting that a series of tweets from the ACLU's official twitter present are not sufficient for you to determine what their position is?

That is ridiculous, but by all means do not hesitate to regale us with their "actual, detailed position"
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Old 16th November 2018, 01:42 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Are you asserting that a series of tweets from the ACLU's official twitter present are not sufficient for you to determine what their position is?

That is ridiculous, but by all means do not hesitate to regale us with their "actual, detailed position"
Absolutely that is what I am asserting. You got it!

Except you did miss my point that I do not yet know their actual, detailed position. No one does. So I regret that I cannot "regale" you with it. Instead I only pointed out that it would be useful to wait and learn what their detailed position was before becoming either outraged or supportive. But I admit that not everyone feels that constraint.
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Old 16th November 2018, 01:48 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Absolutely that is what I am asserting. You got it!

Except you did miss my point that I do not yet know their actual, detailed position. No one does. So I regret that I cannot "regale" you with it. Instead I only pointed out that it would be useful to wait and learn what their detailed position was before becoming either outraged or supportive. But I admit that not everyone feels that constraint.
Well, you know their actual position, because they released a statement via twitter which is what they do nowadays.

But you want to wait to post more about it when you learn more details.

Cool, cool, oddly enough that didn't stop you from posting already, but I look forward to your regaling us with "details."
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Old 16th November 2018, 01:48 PM   #20
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If my college student suffers sexual violence why in the hell would I want the university to investigate it under Title IX? I would want the police to investigate it under the criminal statutes of that jurisdiction. If the school also wants to hand out discipline, they should defer to the police investigation.
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Old 16th November 2018, 01:54 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
If my college student suffers sexual violence why in the hell would I want the university to investigate it under Title IX? I would want the police to investigate it under the criminal statutes of that jurisdiction. If the school also wants to hand out discipline, they should defer to the police investigation.
There are a lot of well-documented reasons why many -- maybe a majority -- of women don't report sexual assault to the police. And what happens if a police investigation reveals that whatever happened doesn't merit criminal prosecution? That doesn't mean that nothing happened, or that a student shouldn't be punished for violating the college's own rules of conduct.

And "sexual assault" doesn't have to mean rape at gunpoint in an alley. There are many levels of sexual misconduct, and on a college campus a lot of them involve abuse of alcohol by all parties. Administrative proceedings might be more appropriate than local law enforcement.

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Old 16th November 2018, 02:04 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Well, you know their actual position, because they released a statement via twitter which is what they do nowadays.

But you want to wait to post more about it when you learn more details.

Cool, cool, oddly enough that didn't stop you from posting already, but I look forward to your regaling us with "details."
So all of their position statements on their websites, their briefs submitted in court cases, their arguments in court, etc. will now be limited to 140 characters? Cool! That will really speed up the justice system!

More generally I will mention that I do not appreciate the belittling tone of your posts. In fact the tone of your posts has made me far less inclined to participate in many threads at this Forum. Primarily I see it as a distraction from the actual topics. But further I don't feel any obligation to subject myself to this type of thing. So although I gather it works for you I will await a more polite and fact-filled part of this thread with which to engage. And maybe surprisingly to you, I would be pleased if you are there participating in that context.

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Old 16th November 2018, 02:14 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Sure. The regulations themselves. I'm not sure what further evidence you think is necessary.
You made the assertion that the regulations donít inappropriately favor the accuses. Do you have anything to support this claim or not?
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Old 16th November 2018, 02:15 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
So all of their position statements on their websites, their briefs submitted in court cases, their arguments in court, etc. will now be limited to 140 characters? Cool! That will really speed up the justice system!
Rule of So right out of the box. Oh man, that is the good stuff.

By the way, the word limit on tweets is now 250 words AND the ACLU strung several of them together.

More generally I will note that your repeated statement that the ACLU's statement is not their actual position because you would prefer to have more details is specious.

Thanks for posting.
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Old 16th November 2018, 02:17 PM   #25
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I think the situation is not simple. I believe that accusations of violence or crimes of any kind should be handled by the court system and the police, and required to meet the standards laid out in the criminal justice system, with all the associated protections for the accused and the accuser. No one should be punished or have their reputation destroyed by implementation of any lesser standards.

Yet in a University setting one might easily have a situation where the person who believes they are the victim of an assault will find themselves seated a few desks away from the person they see as their attacker. Day after day. Or sleeping in the next dorm room down the hall. Or seeing their accused assaulter walking past them in the quad twice a day. I believe that some accommodations have to be made to recognize these concerns prior to any official judgement as to guilt or innocence.

Complicated? Yes. Hard to make it fair and just for everyone? Certainly, to do so requires a lot of smarts, understanding, and some compromise, with the best solution probably varying with each circumstance.

Probably too complex to solve with a single tweet. Or even a series.

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Old 16th November 2018, 02:18 PM   #26
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By the way, also hilarious is the contention that challenging the ACLU's assertion that the regs "inappropriately favoring the accused" is a right wing nut bar position fills me with pure joy.

Gideon, Miranda, also right wing nut bar positions I reckon!
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Old 16th November 2018, 02:22 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
"apply basic due process protections for students, including a presumption of innocence throughout the grievance process; written notice of allegations and an equal opportunity to review all evidence collected; and the right to cross-examination"

The ACLU claims that these basic principles of due process "inappropriately" favor the accused.

Unbelievable.
Cite please?
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Old 16th November 2018, 02:25 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I think the situation is not simple. I believe that accusations of violence or crimes of any kind should be handled by the court system and the police, and required to meet the standards laid out in the criminal justice system, with all the associated protections for the accused and the accuser. No one should be punished or have their reputation destroyed by implementation of any lesser standards.
Court system yest - police, not necessarily.

Civil courts hand out punishments all the time with no police involvement. Fines for millions, hundreds of millions, of even billions (Cobell. v Salazar) of dollars go through the civil court system all the time, no police. People get fired, evicted, lose custody of children, assets forfeited, - all with no police and more or less "lower" standards of proof.

The Universities absolutely ought to be able to do the same. Expelling a student, removing a student from housing, rejiggering a student's schedule to avoid contact with a person victimized by that student - all that is equivalent to things that are routinely handled through civil court with no police involvement required, without the "reasonable doubt" standard applied.

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Old 16th November 2018, 02:30 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Cite please?
it is in the link in the op....

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Old 16th November 2018, 02:33 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Court system yest - police, not necessarily.
The situation is that a crime is being reported, the only thing that the schools should be allowed to do is call the police and then support the claimant if he or she asks for that support during the police interview process. As a society we have established law enforcement and justice systems to deal with criminal behaviour. Schools have no place in trying to replace them.
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Old 16th November 2018, 02:38 PM   #31
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Full disclosure: Title IX applies to sexual harassment which has been included within the definition of sexual discrimination.

As such, we are not necessarily talking about accusations covered by the criminal law.
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Old 16th November 2018, 02:40 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
The Universities absolutely ought to be able to do the same. Expelling a student, removing a student from housing, rejiggering a student's schedule to avoid contact with a person victimized by that student - all that is equivalent to things that are routinely handled through civil court with no police involvement required, without the "reasonable doubt" standard applied.
And guess what? They can! The new standards don't require schools to use "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard. In fact, under the new rules schools can choose between the "preponderance of evidence" standard that the Obama administration rules required and the "clear and convincing" standard, which is a higher burden. But both these standards are more relaxed than "beyond a reasonable doubt". The only restriction on using the lower "preponderance of evidence" standard is that schools can't use this standard only for students and they can't use it only for sexual harassment/assault claims.

But what schools ought not to be able to do but were sometimes doing anyways, and which civil courts do not do, is stuff like deny the accused the right to council, deny the opportunity for cross-examination of the accuser, and run a "single investigator" system where essentially the school's prosecutor is also the judge.
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Old 16th November 2018, 02:44 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The situation is that a crime is being reported, the only thing that the schools should be allowed to do is call the police and then support the claimant if he or she asks for that support during the police interview process. As a society we have established law enforcement and justice systems to deal with criminal behaviour. Schools have no place in trying to replace them.
In many cases, the schools are the police - Universities often have their own police departments.

Civil court action can occur in addition to criminal court action. It does not need to be a question of either criminal or civil, it can be both.

So use the University Police Department to look into the allegations, if the allegations are of criminal activity. If the evidence is not strong enough to support criminal charges, or if the allegations are not criminal, use civil court. Even if it does go to criminal court, civil action can still be used to expel the or rehouse the suspect.

And, much like the broken clock, TBD brings up a good point about Title IX including non-criminal infractions such as harassment.
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Old 16th November 2018, 06:09 PM   #34
Beeyon
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Does the ACLU support Blackstone's formulation: "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"?

I mean this as a serious question. I previously assumed that this would be organizational dogma for the ACLU, but a quick google search doesn't seem to produce anything supporting that assumption.
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Old 16th November 2018, 06:18 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Rule of So right out of the box. Oh man, that is the good stuff.

By the way, the word limit on tweets is now 250 words AND the ACLU strung several of them together.

More generally I will note that your repeated statement that the ACLU's statement is not their actual position because you would prefer to have more details is specious.

Thanks for posting.
We've already been over this. There is no "rule of so".
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Old 16th November 2018, 06:27 PM   #36
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
By the way, also hilarious is the contention that challenging the ACLU's assertion that the regs "inappropriately favoring the accused" is a right wing nut bar position fills me with pure joy.

Gideon, Miranda, also right wing nut bar positions I reckon!
Miranda applies to people arrested. People are not being arrested in this scenario
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Old 16th November 2018, 06:37 PM   #37
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I believe it is DeVos' policy that one should be outraged by, not the ACLU sticking up for assaulted women.

The Most Terrifying Parts of Betsy DeVos’s New Sexual-Assault Policy

Disguised as protecting assaulted students it smacks of the typical dishonest titling of legislation. This sounds rosy:
Quote:
On Friday, Education Secretary Betsy DeVos officially proposed her long-held plan to protect students accused of sexual assault on college campuses. The new regulations would mark a major shift in how colleges and universities approach accusations of sexual misconduct, not only adding protections for accused students, but also significantly narrowing the definition of sexual harassment.
This doesn't:
Quote:
Under DeVos’s new plan, colleges would only be required to investigate allegations that occur on campus, somewhere owned by the school, or at a school-funded event. This could mean that assaults at off-campus house parties, for example, would not be properly investigated by the administration. The cases would also need to be reported to certain campus authorities with the authority to take action.
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Old 16th November 2018, 08:15 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
This doesn't:
First, that doesn't prohibit schools from taking action, so they likely will.

Second, and more importantly, why should the school be responsible for handling cases that don't occur on school property or at school events? Non-students don't get this extra justice system to handle assaults. What makes students so special?

This complaint stinks of classism.
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Old 16th November 2018, 08:18 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Miranda applies to people arrested. People are not being arrested in this scenario
You're missing the point, Bob. He's not saying that Miranda applies here. He's saying that the principle of protecting the rights of the accused, which Miranda is but one example of, applies here. So if protecting the rights of the accused is a right wing principle, that makes Miranda right wing as well because of that common principle, not because it applies directly here.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
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Old 16th November 2018, 08:21 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You're missing the point, Bob. He's not saying that Miranda applies here. He's saying that the principle of protecting the rights of the accused, which Miranda is but one example of, applies here. So if protecting the rights of the accused is a right wing principle, that makes Miranda right wing as well because of that common principle, not because it applies directly here.
It isn't given that what is at stake here is a right of the accused.
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