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Tags aclu , civil liberties , title IX

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Old 16th November 2018, 08:54 PM   #41
Apathia
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Somehow not included in discussion ACLU:

https://www.aclu.org/blog/womens-rig...65HbQVl-SmGQs0
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Old 16th November 2018, 09:13 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
First, that doesn't prohibit schools from taking action, so they likely will.

Second, and more importantly, why should the school be responsible for handling cases that don't occur on school property or at school events? Non-students don't get this extra justice system to handle assaults. What makes students so special?

This complaint stinks of classism.
I would say your POV stinks of partisanship on your side given the Reason white-male-privilege POV.

And just which class am I biased for or against? The DeVos class?

But let's move past that.

There are many reasons a school should be concerned about these specific matters involving students and staff. DeVos wants to absolve anything related to the schools, that's quite convenient.

But the school taking formal action doesn't mean the school need take responsibility for legal actions but they certainly should be involved.
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Old 16th November 2018, 09:15 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
Somehow not included in discussion ACLU:

https://www.aclu.org/blog/womens-rig...65HbQVl-SmGQs0
Yes, this^.
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Old 16th November 2018, 09:54 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The Education Department has officially released new rules on how to enforce Title IX, the federal statute that forbids sex and gender-based discrimination in public schools. here is a primer on the new Regs from Washington Post to get you up to speed.

Shockingly, the ACLU raised an objection to the regs that is absolutely stunning:

"It promotes an unfair process, inappropriately favoring the accused and letting schools ignore their responsibility under Title IX to respond promptly and fairly to complaints of sexual violence."

-ACLU Tweet

"inappropriately favoring the accused" is not something I think anyone would ever have conceived the ACLU as arguing, but there it is.

Here is an article collecting objections to the ACLU's outrageous position



Really mind boggling....
What's really mind-boggling is your inability to actually understand what DeVos' proposal is meant to achieve (absolving the big money players - the universities from any responsibility, and making it harder to file harassment complaints) and your feeble attempt to divert it to a question of fifth amendment protections to cover for the usual big-money-focused policies of DeVos and Trump. That you choose a libertarian blog is strange for a Bernie-supporting socialist, but any port in a storm, eh? That you choose/chose to not actually find the readily available full explanation for their objections, though, is not in the least surprising.

Do we take it that your brief romance with the ACLU is over? We knew that wouldn't end well and you were heading for a broken heart the next time they supported a cause you didn't like (or didn't support a cause you liked).
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Old 16th November 2018, 11:00 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I would say your POV stinks of partisanship on your side given the Reason white-male-privilege POV.
Bwahahahaha! You’re like a character straight out of central casting. Can you get any more cliched?

But seriously, how delusional is this? The primary victims of unfair title IX proceedings are not white males, but black males.

Quote:
And just which class am I biased for or against? The DeVos class?
The college educated class. Why do they deserve protections that the general public doesn’t have?

Quote:
There are many reasons a school should be concerned about these specific matters involving students and staff. DeVos wants to absolve anything related to the schools, that's quite convenient.
First, this doesn’t, second, given that universities are an overwhelmingly Democrat constituency, no, actually, shielding them wouldn’t be quite convenient.

Quote:
But the school taking formal action doesn't mean the school need take responsibility for legal actions but they certainly should be involved.
I asked why. You haven’t provided any reason.
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Old 16th November 2018, 11:11 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
Somehow not included in discussion ACLU:

https://www.aclu.org/blog/womens-rig...65HbQVl-SmGQs0
Their argument about standards of proof is crap. First, in a sexual harassment claim, both sides do NOT have equivalent risks in the proceedings, and that provides very good reason to not use the preponderance standard. Second, schools generally do NOT use the preponderance of evidence standard for accusations against employees. Nobody seems to be upset about that, I wonder why. Why should they hold students to a laxer standard of proof than employees?
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Old 16th November 2018, 11:16 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
Somehow not included in discussion ACLU:

https://www.aclu.org/blog/womens-rig...65HbQVl-SmGQs0
Maybe because they posted it several hours after the thread was posted, and interesting focuses on “women’s rights” rather than on civil liberties of the accused? Schools would favor a standard of proof that favors the respondent? That means the defendant, that means the accused.

How dare we suggest that the standard of proof fall on the government?

ACLU wants to roll back civil rights protections on targets of governmental prosecutions.

ACLU has sold out.
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Old 16th November 2018, 11:39 PM   #48
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“Under the new rules, schools would be required to hold live hearings and would no longer rely on a so-called single investigator model that has become common at colleges. Accusers and students accused of sexual assault must be allowed to cross-examine each other through an adviser or lawyer. The rules require that the live hearings be conducted by a neutral decision maker and conducted with a presumption of innocence.”

Due process and presumption of innocence.

Sounds pretty reasonable.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/16/u...-title-ix.html
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Old 17th November 2018, 10:00 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
Somehow not included in discussion ACLU:

https://www.aclu.org/blog/womens-rig...65HbQVl-SmGQs0
Thank you for the link. I now have a much better picture of the ACLU's thinking and position.

On first read it doesn't sound outrageous, but there may be some parts I disagree with, or at least have some concerns about. I'll have to think about it some more before forming an overall opinion.
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Old 17th November 2018, 11:09 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
“Under the new rules, schools would be required to hold live hearings and would no longer rely on a so-called single investigator model that has become common at colleges. Accusers and students accused of sexual assault must be allowed to cross-examine each other through an adviser or lawyer. The rules require that the live hearings be conducted by a neutral decision maker and conducted with a presumption of innocence.”

Due process and presumption of innocence.

Sounds pretty reasonable.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/16/u...-title-ix.html

You keep missing the point that under the new rules schools would not even be required to investigate a large percentage of complaints that they must investigate now, and the college's liability would be reduced.

From your link:
Quote:
The regulations mirror a draft proposal first reported by The New York Times in August, which established a narrower definition of sexual harassment, tightened reporting requirements, relieved colleges of the responsibility to investigate off-campus episodes, and outlined steps schools should take to provide support for accusers. They also give schools the flexibility to choose a higher evidentiary standard, establish an appeals process, and offer the option of cross-examination.
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Old 17th November 2018, 11:16 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You keep missing the point that under the new rules schools would not even be required to investigate a large percentage of complaints that they must investigate now, and the college's liability would be reduced.

From your link:
You keep missing the point that the ACLU has come out against changes in the regulations that afford additional protections to the accused.

By the way, reducing the scope of complaints that they must investigate is a feature, not a bug.
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Old 17th November 2018, 11:38 AM   #52
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Notably, the changes to the Regs were driven in part by court opinions holding that the existing procedures were unconstitutional.

See for example this opinion https://law.justia.com/cases/federal...017-09-25.html

“The Due Process Clause guarantees fundamental fairness to state university students facing long-term exclusion from the educational process. The Committee necessarily made a credibility determination and its failure to provide any form of confrontation of the accuser made the proceeding fundamentally unfair.”

It is a disgrace that the ACLU has totally abandoned promoting Constitutional safeguards designed to protect against governmental overreaching.
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Old 17th November 2018, 04:03 PM   #53
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Here is FIRE’s analysis:

https://www.thefire.org/new-proposed...ess-on-campus/

“Back in August, FIRE’s Robert Shibley highlighted some important provisions contained in a leaked draft of new Title IX regulations that were expected to be released shortly by the Department of Education’s Office for Civil Rights. Today, the department officially released its proposed regulations and will now solicit public comment. As FIRE hoped, these proposed rules include a number of crucial clarifications and mandates for schools that, if finalized, would help ensure they afford fair hearings to students accused of sexual misconduct while taking seriously all accusations of such misconduct.”

Hear hear!
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Old 17th November 2018, 05:26 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You keep missing the point that under the new rules schools would not even be required to investigate a large percentage of complaints that they must investigate now
Good. Universities are not day care centers. University students are, for the most part, legal adults. They can solve minor problems themselves.
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Old 17th November 2018, 08:11 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Good. Universities are not day care centers. University students are, for the most part, legal adults. They can solve minor problems themselves.
How, exactly? And who gets to decide what's a "minor" problem? Is everything that the police won't make an arrest for too "minor" for the college to notice? What would you say about an employer who told an abused employee, "You're adults. Work it out." There is no reason why a college shouldn't have standards of conduct for its students on campus and off, and no reason why it shouldn't enforce them.
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Old 17th November 2018, 09:48 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
How, exactly?
The same way everyone who isn't a university student does.

Quote:
And who gets to decide what's a "minor" problem?
That's already been spelled out in these rules. If you're really curious, go read them, or at least the official summary (not press reports).

Quote:
Is everything that the police won't make an arrest for too "minor" for the college to notice?
Not according to these rules.

Quote:
What would you say about an employer who told an abused employee, "You're adults. Work it out."
Depends on what you mean by "abused". But for certain behavior that an employee might not like, yes.

And since you mentioned employees, it's worth pointing out that most universities had a double standard: employees accused of sexual misconduct were afforded protections that students were denied. These new rules help remedy that.

Quote:
There is no reason why a college shouldn't have standards of conduct for its students on campus and off, and no reason why it shouldn't enforce them.
There's a very good reason colleges shouldn't have standards of conduct for students off campus: they aren't their ******* parents.
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Old 17th November 2018, 10:02 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
How, exactly? And who gets to decide what's a "minor" problem? Is everything that the police won't make an arrest for too "minor" for the college to notice?
Well in the case of making an arrest I'd say that'd be the police wouldn't it?

Quote:
What would you say about an employer who told an abused employee, "You're adults. Work it out."
Wouldn't that depend on the circumstances of the abuse? If the abuse has absolutely nothing to do with the employer or the workplace then the employer, whose comment would be callous, would be entirely correct in not doing anything. Why? Because it has nothing to do with them.

Quote:
There is no reason why a college shouldn't have standards of conduct for its students on campus and off, and no reason why it shouldn't enforce them.
But why? If A meets B at A's best friend's-cousin's-neighbour's-daughter's-boyfriend's party during the semester break, get drunk, have sex and then A regrets it afterwards, why should the university be responsible for this?
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Old 17th November 2018, 11:37 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It isn't given that what is at stake here is a right of the accused.
I have examined the issue and concluded it is. Do you have an argument for why it is not, or are you just stating that you haven’t made a determination yourself?
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Old 18th November 2018, 11:10 AM   #59
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I think the ACLU has discovered intersectionality. Civil rights are less important for college-aged males.
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Old 18th November 2018, 09:16 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
....
There's a very good reason colleges shouldn't have standards of conduct for students off campus: they aren't their ******* parents.
A university is a voluntary membership organization. Nobody is required to join, and nobody is entitled to join. It's not unreasonable for the university to establish and enforce minimum codes of conduct for membership, and "You can't assault other students anyplace, anytime" doesn't seem like a wildly unreasonable standard.
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Old 18th November 2018, 09:19 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
....
But why? If A meets B at A's best friend's-cousin's-neighbour's-daughter's-boyfriend's party during the semester break, get drunk, have sex and then A regrets it afterwards, why should the university be responsible for this?
If you really think that's what's happening in colleges, you are woefully misinformed. If you decide to educate yourself, you might start here.
https://slate.com/technology/2018/11...ge_taps_bottom

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Old 18th November 2018, 10:28 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
A university is a voluntary membership organization. Nobody is required to join, and nobody is entitled to join. It's not unreasonable for the university to establish and enforce minimum codes of conduct for membership, and "You can't assault other students anyplace, anytime" doesn't seem like a wildly unreasonable standard.
First off, these rules only apply to universities that take federal funding. The fact that federal funds are involved is what gives taxpayers a say in what such schools do. Don't want any federal strings? Don't take federal money.

But in this case, schools are actually still free to do exactly that, if they so choose. The only change here is that the government isn't going to force universities to police student conduct outside of school. Because, again, why should they? Your response may suffice as a reason why they might choose to do so (which they still can), but it doesn't satisfy the question of why they must do so.
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Old 18th November 2018, 10:36 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
If you really think that's what's happening in colleges, you are woefully misinformed. If you decide to educate yourself, you might start here.
https://slate.com/technology/2018/11...ge_taps_bottom
Umm... you realize that your link is about sexual harassment of students by professors, and not by fellow students, right? Tell me one change in these regulations that would have had any substantive impact on the events described in your links.
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Old 18th November 2018, 10:47 PM   #64
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We have to protect college mens' right to rape women. [/Republican]
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Old 18th November 2018, 11:47 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
We have to protect college mens' right to rape women. [/Republican]
Totally, because Haven Monahan deserves to do whatever he wants.
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Old 18th November 2018, 11:57 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
We have to protect college mens' right to rape women. [/Republican]
excellent example of the pervasive guilty until proven innocent mentality that infects the leftists nowadays.

Oh dear, can you imagine giving the accused basic due process rights?
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Old 18th November 2018, 11:58 PM   #67
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There was a false accusation against a guy in a college, therefore all accusations should be treated as false accusations. [/Republicans]
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Old 19th November 2018, 12:00 AM   #68
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The rape culture needs protection, we'll use the presumption of innocence as justification to denigrate the victims of rape to do so......
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Old 19th November 2018, 12:13 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
The rape culture needs protection, we'll use the presumption of innocence as justification to denigrate the victims of rape to do so......
Due process = rape culture

Innocent until proven guilty no longer matters I guess.
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Old 19th November 2018, 12:17 AM   #70
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How will rapers get to be Supreme Court Justices if we actually investigate accusations? DeVos knows that can't happen, so she's going to make it easy to denigrate rape victims.
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Old 19th November 2018, 12:34 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
There was a false accusation against a guy in a college, therefore all accusations should be treated as false accusations. [/Republicans]
Get better straw men. These ones are spontaneously combusting.
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Old 19th November 2018, 05:43 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
How will rapers get to be Supreme Court Justices if we actually investigate accusations? DeVos knows that can't happen, so she's going to make it easy to denigrate rape victims.
Let's be absolutely honest here - it has ALWAYS been easy to denigrate rape victims.

If it weren't there would not be the fear of reporting the offence, the ease with which defence counsel (and practically everyone else) go after the victim (what was she wearing, how much did she have to drink, had she ever had sexual relations outside of marriage, did she pay for the polygraph, etc.) and so very often look to exonerate the alleged offender (how will these accusations affect his ability to carry on for the swim team- he's an Olympic quality athlete, she must have wanted it or she wouldn't have led him on, maybe she liked it rough, etc.).

Sexual assault isn't treated like any other offence. No one would bat an eye if the name of an alleged fraudster was published, no one cares if a student gets into a fight at the local pub, yet everyone tends to be up in arms about protecting the alleged rapist from false allegations to the point where "beyond a reasonable doubt" becomes "beyond all doubt, even the accused's mother". And it's the only one where the victim of the offence is often put through a more stressful interrogation than the accused.
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Old 19th November 2018, 05:45 AM   #73
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The ACLU is so left-leaning, who is surprised that they have a femi-nazi attitude too? "Pinko" in more ways than one.
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Old 19th November 2018, 05:51 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
...And it's the only one where the victim of the offence is often put through a more stressful interrogation than the accused.
Sadly, I agree. If a person is mugged, that person is asked about their well being, who the perpetrator was and how can justice be served.

If a woman is sexually assaulted or raped, she is asked what she was wearing, why did she put herself in that situation and if she is just having remorse for having sex. Women are often called sluts and whores when they report sexual misconduct.
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Old 19th November 2018, 06:56 AM   #75
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Being involved in campus law enforcement, we get annual training on “Title IX” and it’s very complex and difficult to keep track of.
There are complex designations about what constitutes “on campus” and “off campus” that are very much open to interpretation.
Much of this does not concern law enforcement directly but rather the responsibility of various administrators who become aware of sexual assaults and similar crimes to actually report them.
This is, you may recall what got Joe Paterno in trouble....

Many of these cases do not get reported directly to law enforcement.... Students often preferring to go through various administrative offices and such. In truth, they are often very difficult cases to make.
I recall one from years ago where the young woman said....”He got me drunk and raped me.” The young man involved said “we got drunk together and had consensual sex.”

No witnesses, no evidence (he admitted sex....)
The prosecutor took the case “Under advisement”. (Prosecutor term for “find me some more evidence”)
For years, institutions (including the one I work for) have systematically under-reported such cases or handled them “administratively” or not at all.
The incidence of sex crimes associated with college life is quite high, and much of this was very carefully kept under wraps.
Title IX sought to address this situation by requiring official reporting and increasing the responsibility of administrators to do so.
Although this action by the current administration may be seen by some as a step towards “fairness”, I think one must deal with the many years of such cases being merely swept under the carpet, and the fact that victims often saw the futility of trying to report such crimes.
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Old 19th November 2018, 07:02 AM   #76
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So the main complaint of the right wing nutbars is that the ACLU thinks standards used for criminal proceedings are not appropriate for these non-criminal proceedings. I guess that’s the type of idiocy you can expect from people who get their opinions fed to them by partisan op-eds.
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Old 19th November 2018, 07:12 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
So the main complaint of the right wing nutbars is that the ACLU thinks standards used for criminal proceedings are not appropriate for these non-criminal proceedings. I guess that’s the type of idiocy you can expect from people who get their opinions fed to them by partisan op-eds.
Yet more cluelessness.

No. The standards the Dept. of Ed. is now requiring are not criminal proceeding standards. But even civil proceedings still have standards. For example, the requirement to allow cross-examination is not peculiar to criminal cases, and it's simply stunning that the left objects to such basic due process.

It's rather telling that nobody complaining about this change actually talks about the specifics. It's all just unspecific doomsaying and attacks on alleged motives. I guess it's like that old saying: if the law is on your side, pound on the law. If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If neither is on your side, pound on the table.
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Old 19th November 2018, 07:15 AM   #78
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There aren't very many organizations out there that should make you reassess your own views if you ever find yourself on the other side of an issue from them. The ACLU is one.
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Old 19th November 2018, 07:15 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
Although this action by the current administration may be seen by some as a step towards “fairness”
It's not just seen as a step towards fairness, it is a step towards fairness.

Seriously, who actually thinks it's a good idea to not allow cross examination? Who thinks it's a good idea to not let the accused have representation? Who thinks it's a good idea to use a single investigator model?
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
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Old 19th November 2018, 07:18 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
So the main complaint of the right wing nutbars is that the ACLU thinks standards used for criminal proceedings are not appropriate for these non-criminal proceedings. I guess that’s the type of idiocy you can expect from people who get their opinions fed to them by partisan op-eds.
Isn't sexual assault a crime? Shouldn't the police handle these cases?
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